Garmin Headaches

Flyhound

Flyhound

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I recently upgraded to a mode S transponder with extended squitter from Garmin (GTX-335). I already had an ADS-B in solution with a portable DUAL XGPS 170 receiver. As I understood the process, my DUAL receiver would pick up traffic once I had an ADS-B out signal to activate the ground transmitters. Well, that didn't work out as I had hoped. Apparently, there has to be compatibility between the specific Mode S transponder and the model of ADS-B in unit used. Garmin apparently does not support the DUAL XGPS ADS-B in solution. That is strange, because I get traffic when other aircraft in the vicinity trigger the ground transmitters with their ADS-B out signals. I tried to contact Garmin to find out what portable models of ADS-B receivers they support and the phone message was that I'd have to wait 30 minutes to talk to a technical representative.

Has Gamin become the new anti-Christ? I am ****ed that I bought their bloody transponder now and am angry with their totally inadequate customer support. I am also angry that their authorized installer did not let me know that my ADS-B in receiver would not work with the Garmin mode S transponder. My set-up was made clear to the installation shop when I placed my order. Bloody hell! Now I'm looking at dumping my Garmin unit through E-Bay and finding another solution.
 
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That makes no sense. The portable ADS-B IN device doesn't talk to the 335 at all. I'm confused.
 
Odd. Seems that if ANYBODY is transmitting out the station would be responding and your Dual would get it.

I'll be watching this thread. My plan is to keep my GDL-39 with G696 for the in and mapping, and add a 330ES for out and traffic on the 430W.
 
Any ads-b out has to be configured when installed. It sounds like the unit may not be set to trigger the traffic broadcast. Ask the avionics shop if they set the ads-b in.
 
Sounds like an installation problem. The ADS-B out unit does need to transmit a flag to say you can receive ADS-B In and on what frequency you want it on. The installer probably didn't set that since he wasn't installing ADS-B In at the same time. In your case it needs to send that you want to receive on 978 since the XGPS is single frequency. Based on one manual it looks like your avionics shop needs to set 'UAT In Capable' in the GTX Install Tool.

Edit: the manual implies you should have gotten a print out or other listing of the settings they set when they installed it for your aircraft records, that should say how it was setup.
 
Not only was Garmin's phone support wait unacceptable, their chat support was "unavailable", and their support email system was down and would not process my email request. CRAP!
 
Hmmm, I also assumed that OUT-triggered ADS-B IN would be universal. Interested to follow others', including Garmin's, input on this.
 
wrbix said:
Hmmm, I also assumed that OUT-triggered ADS-B IN would be universal. Interested to follow others', including Garmin's, input on this.
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It's not. Abs-b in has to be set. It can be 1090 or 978 or both.
 
Having out functionality gives your in only device a very convenient source of information. Without the out your source is the nearest airplane with out. The type of device doesn't matter.
There are probably errors going on in your gtx device that need to be cleared you. I would speak with the guy that installed it. From the sound of it, you may not be transmitting out. Do you see your aircraft on the map when your external device is collecting data from another airplane?

Garmin. Took me nearly two years, but I finally figured out how to get ahold of them without sitting on hold for a day.

EMAIL them. They usually respond within a day and I have found them to be VERY helpful using that method.
 
I went through the GTX-335 setup with the shop and changed the ADS-B settings to UAT in compatible for ADS-B In and it still doesn't with the DUAL XGPS 170. I tried setting the 1090 ES receiver settings on and off and neither setting changes my ability to get traffic on my tablet. I still receive weather, but I've always had that.
 
Clark1961 said:
It's not. Abs-b in has to be set. It can be 1090 or 978 or both.
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....OK, semantics - meant manufacturer/device universal. Not like Apple vs Window thing.
 
TheGolfPilot said:
From the sound of it, you may not be transmitting out. Do you see your aircraft on the map when your external device is collecting data from another airplane?

Garmin. Took me nearly two years, but I finally figured out how to get ahold of them without sitting on hold for a day.

EMAIL them. They usually respond within a day and I have found them to be VERY helpful using that method.
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As my original post indicates, I flew my FAA ADS-B Out validation flight successfully, so the Out Signal is being transmitted just fine. I tried to contact Garmin through their email system and it will not process my message. There is no way to email them directly, your only option is to submit an email via their website and that isn't working. My frustration is mounting.
 
BGF_Yankee said:
...did you maybe take it back to whomever installed it to let them take care of it?
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I contacted them and they walked me though various settings for the new transponder and none have worked. The installing shop indicated it must be a problem with the ADS-B in unit (the DUAL XGPS 170). Dual is the outfit that told me their box doesn't work with Garmin systems. The difficulty in getting straight, and informative answers is the worst part of this process. There are a lot of variables and nobody has provided a sufficient explanation of how to get all of the parts working as a whole. No one company has offered to help with integrating what I have. They all seem to point at the part of the system not provided by them saying that is where the fault lies.
 
Paging John Collins......John Collins to the White Courtesy Phone please.

(I've always been educated by his ADS-B posts in the past, seems to well understand the system)
 
Flyhound, check the FAA report and make sure it shows the correct "In Capability" on page 2 of the report. If that is set correctly then the transponder is doing its part. It doesn't matter if it's garmin, dual, trig, ilevil or anything else. That is where the ground station gets told to transmit traffic data.

Report can be generated here: https://adsbperformance.faa.gov/PAPRRequest.aspx
It takes about 30 minutes.
 
If I understand the issue correctly, you're saying you aren't seeing traffic on your portable with this. I would first take a look at the settings you have on your portable ap for traffic. There may be less traffic around than you think, and it's possible that you have the settings such that it's only showing you traffic in a relatively small radius or relatively small altitude deviation from your present altitude. Honestly, in a piston airplane, there is generally not a lot of traffic around you. The altitudes we fly at, unless you are in a busy bravo, are usually pretty empty. Try setting your altitude range on unlimited and do some zooming out to see if you pick up traffic. It sounds like you were seeing traffic before as well.

I don't think this is an issue with your transponder installation. The GTX 335 does not talk to your portable. All it does is send its own position outputs. If it installed and passed the test, then it is most likely working properly. It seems that your portable only has the UAT receiver, rather than UAT and 1090 like some other portables do. So it might be that it requires a UAT ADS-B Out aircraft in vicinity.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
If I understand the issue correctly, you're saying you aren't seeing traffic on your portable with this. I would first take a look at the settings you have on your portable ap for traffic. There may be less traffic around than you think, and it's possible that you have the settings such that it's only showing you traffic in a relatively small radius or relatively small altitude deviation from your present altitude. Honestly, in a piston airplane, there is generally not a lot of traffic around you. The altitudes we fly at, unless you are in a busy bravo, are usually pretty empty. Try setting your altitude range on unlimited and do some zooming out to see if you pick up traffic. It sounds like you were seeing traffic before as well.

I don't think this is an issue with your transponder installation. The GTX 335 does not talk to your portable. All it does is send its own position outputs. If it installed and passed the test, then it is most likely working properly. It seems that your portable only has the UAT receiver, rather than UAT and 1090 like some other portables do. So it might be that it requires a UAT ADS-B Out aircraft in vicinity.
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There are two settings on the GTX-3X5 1090 in capable yes/no and UAT in capable yes/no. These affect the transmitted ADS-B (out) message. Beyond that I'm not sure what happens. I would assume that determines whether or not you'll be a client for data to be uplinked to.
 
bnt83 said:
There are two settings on the GTX-3X5 1090 in capable yes/no and UAT in capable yes/no. These affect the transmitted ADS-B (out) message. Beyond that I'm not sure what happens. I would assume that determines whether or not you'll be a client for data to be uplinked to.
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True. In the OP's case it seems that it should be UAT In Capable should be set to "Yes".
 
bnt83 said:
There are two settings on the GTX-3X5 1090 in capable yes/no and UAT in capable yes/no. These affect the transmitted ADS-B (out) message. Beyond that I'm not sure what happens. I would assume that determines whether or not you'll be a client for data to be uplinked to.
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Ted DuPuis said:
True. In the OP's case it seems that it should be UAT In Capable should be set to "Yes".
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This is why I told the OP to check the FAA report and gave a link to the website to get the report. The report will say exactly what info the ads-b system is receiving.
 
The GTX 335 is set correctly with UAT-in yes and 1090 ES in set for no. I am flying in a busy Class B veil close to SEATAC (KSEA) and Boeing Field (KBFI) and both have a lot of ADS-B equipped traffic. I am high enough that I am getting TIS-B traffic on my Mode S transponder. Some of that traffic is undoubtedly also ADS-B Out equipped, so something is fouled up. Now I'm thinking it is my DUAL XGPS-170 ADS-B in receiver. DUAL has been NO HELP at all. Fortunately, I use DROID EFB and they gave me a diagnostic I can run that will show what the DUAL Unit is doing. I'll run that diagnostic the next time I fly and will send the output file to DroidEFB for analysis. I just might have to buy another ADS-B receiver. I'll probably go with one of the kit systems (like FlightBox) if I do. I certainly won't buy another DUAL unit after their complete lack of support.
 
Try another efb on your tablet. I used Avare and it's Blutooth helper app to get wx and traffic Via my Dual 170 on my android tablet. Worked very well. Free, so the test won't cost you anything. Your out only xponder setting shouldn't have any effect on your portable being able to receive traffic broadcast from GROUND towers.

Otherwise, non out equipped aircraft wouldn't be able to receive any traffic at all on a portable device. As it is, they can see traffic if in another aircraft's puck that's emitting an SIL=3 whether 1090ES or UAT as long as the portable is receiving a ground tower. The whole point to the system is that all participating traffic, 1090ES or UAT, be able to "see" each other. Check your ADS-B report to confirm you're broadcasting an SIL=3, otherwise it won't trigger a ground station. Not sure if that's to be configured by the installer on the Garmin.

Which Dual antenna do you have? The one with the tapered end is a lot better than the cylindrical one.
 
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not to turn this into a Garmin vs. thread....
Talking with my CFI, I had mentioned that I always found Garmin to over complicate their user interface. He agreed, but added that he'd never had one fail. Others like Avidyne, etc. have. Usually screen issues and such.
I have a few Garmin GPS products..not the cheapest ones either. And they have ran me almost into a river at night, sent me waaaaay off track, and are slow as the dickens to acquire satellites. But they are all still running lol.
Mostly use my phone now, unless I'm hiking, camping, canoeing, etc.
Google maps has sent me on some out of the way adventures as well.
 
Flyhound, if you become so dissatisfied with Garmin that you decide to upgrade to a better product, please shoot me a PM, I might be interested in your unit (should the price be right).
And sorry for your trouble, it sure sucks when one gets the run-around "ain't our problem". Hoping you get it resolved to your satisfaction. But if you don't, see my offer above.
 
Skyrys62 said:
not to turn this into a Garmin vs. thread....
Talking with my CFI, I had mentioned that I always found Garmin to over complicate their user interface. He agreed, but added that he'd never had one fail.
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Anyone who thinks Garmin is complicated might ought to find a different hobby.

You want complicated? The KSN 770's UI is so terrible you have to get out the manual to go direct to a fix. And no, I'm not kidding. What a POS.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Anyone who thinks Garmin is complicated might ought to find a different hobby.
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I don't plan on using a KSN 770. (especially now)
I probably won't quit flying because I think Garmin could improve their user interface either...but it'd be nice if they did.
 
Skyrys62 said:
I don't plan on using a KSN 770. (especially now)
I probably won't quit flying because I think Garmin could improve their user interface either...but it'd be nice if they did.
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There is room for improvement, no doubt. That's true of most hardware and software! However, it's pretty much the best in GA, and the 750/650 are better than the 530/430 were, largely because we now have touchscreens instead of rotary dials.
 
Yeah...
Now if we could just get that installation and certification price down haha
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Fixed that for you

I don't find Garmins price as offensive as the cost to install it.
 
Good to know others have problems with their customer support. It's too bad you can't schedule a time to call, and email takes ages for them to respond. You'd think they'd know better
 
Even if you don't have or desire avidyne products you should be supportive of their strong entry into the gps / transponder market. Competition is a great thing!
 
After much pleading, DUAL avionics called me back today. They were focused on the fact that their ADS-B-In unit is not compatible with Garmin products. It took forever to explain it doesn't have to be. The Garmin GTX 335 is just my ADS-B-Out source. That ADS-B-Out signal triggers the FAA's ground stations to send weather and traffic information back to me on 978 MHz from ground stations in my area. Once I convinced them I wasn't trying to create a connection with the Garmin unit and reminded them that their own advertising information shows their units get TIS-B (traffic) and FIS-B (weather) from ground stations, they agreed to look into the problem some more. What they came up with is an assumption of a faulty antenna on my DUAL XGPS-170 unit. I said I was willing to try a new antenna so they are sending me one free of charge. I can't complain about that. I don't have high confidence that will fix the problem, but it is certainly worth trying. I'll let the world know if that works or not.
 
Flyhound said:
After much pleading, DUAL avionics called me back today. They were focused on the fact that their ADS-B-In unit is not compatible with Garmin products. It took forever to explain it doesn't have to be. The Garmin GTX 335 is just my ADS-B-Out source. That ADS-B-Out signal triggers the FAA's ground stations to send weather and traffic information back to me on 978 MHz from ground stations in my area. Once I convinced them I wasn't trying to create a connection with the Garmin unit and reminded them that their own advertising information shows their units get TIS-B (traffic) and FIS-B (weather) from ground stations, they agreed to look into the problem some more. What they came up with is an assumption of a faulty antenna on my DUAL XGPS-170 unit. I said I was willing to try a new antenna so they are sending me one free of charge. I can't complain about that. I don't have high confidence that will fix the problem, but it is certainly worth trying. I'll let the world know if that works or not.
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Thanks for following up on your post. Let us know if the antenna fixes the issue.

Doesn't seem likely considering you were getting ADS-B in when you were in someone else's puck.
 
The Dual should work even at home or with the Garmin off, to receive either direct locations from overflying aircraft or weather and locations from the local tower if you're in range of it on the ground (or just drive near it).

The Garmin shouldn't have any effect on it whatsoever.

Now that said, adding the Garmin transmitting at high power near it, especially if there's a significant RF field inside the aircraft (installed properly there's shouldn't be) or if you're using an outside antenna on both and they're installed WAY too close together... could have blown the receiver pre-amp in the Dual's antenna or the receiver front end in the unit itself, but it's unlikely.

I think someone mentioned that one of the ADS-B aware software packages has a debugging mode to look at the raw data messages coming from the Dual. As I recall, when I played with an older model Dual that was GPS only, they also had a software app for setting some things on it and it also had a debug mode.

Would be worth seeing if the Dual, using Duals own debugging methods (assuming they still have one) what it's really putting out.

If they don't HAVE a debugging method anymore -- hmm, hate to say this but I wouldn't buy something that didn't. It's impossible to troubleshoot in the field if you can't tell with manufacturer software (or a serial connection on USB or *something* what the silly thing is sending to the attached devices. If it's receiving and decoding correctly, the next link in that path, the Bluetooth or whatever gets it over to your chosen software has to be debugged next. Etc. Until the problem is found.

Let us know if the antenna works. If not, I'd want to see debug traces from the silly thing. Preferably parked in line of sight to the local 978 tower.

Another way to do this would be ...
if you could borrow someone's working Stratux setup and have it running at the same location as the Dual setup you're using, it would also be obvious if the Dual is missing things. Or missing everything. But you'd want a known working Stratux to compare to. It's easy to get to the debug data on a Stratux, you just go to the built in web page the software provides and you can read all the software logs.

No idea what debugging tools Dual offers. But they used to offer tools for the GPS only devices.
 
Flyhound said:
The GTX 335 is set correctly with UAT-in yes and 1090 ES in set for no.
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I just re-read this post... if the GTX is sending out 1090-in NO... then you won't be getting the rebroadcast from the ground station... 978 is other ADS-B out equipped aircraft. 1090 is the ground station. So 978 and 1090 should both be set to YES. Then you should get the info for both.
 
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