Garmin GTN 650 Checklist

Tan

Tan

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Jun 26, 2018
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TheCapTan
Has anyone use the checklist function with their GTN 650 with flight stream 510 installed?
 
I use them on the G3X in split screen mode. As mooneydriver stated, they are only good once the avionics are fired up.
 
I just made up my check lists for my GTN 750 in my Bonanza. I also have a portable Aera 796 that will accept the same check lists, so in theory I could use it before start up, but more than likely, I will just use the check lists for Taxi and beyond, might review the before taxi. I will still have to work out the kinks and flow. The Garmin check list editor sucks, but works once you know how to use it. There is no useful guidance provided. For me it took a call to Garmin support, who answered my questions. They would have been unnecessary if there was a help feature or simple tutorial.
 
The real use of them is in memorization. By the time you get your version written out, typed up, in the correct order, and uploaded you can remember the whole thing!

That said, I did put emergency checklists into my ancient Dynon D-100. Mostly because I was bored.
 
Ravioli said:
The real use of them is in memorization. By the time you get your version written out, typed up, in the correct order, and uploaded you can remember the whole thing!
Click to expand...
I would never recommend memory in place of aircraft checklists.
 
Ravioli said:
I don't think I did. Rather, I pointed out the worthlessness of the feature.
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Sorry, I thought you were saying creating a checklist was only valuable to memorize the checklist. I'm media neutral so don't see an electronic checklist as any more or less inherently valuable than a printed one. I don't particularly like them for myself but I've seen pilots who were trained to use them and the ones I have seen use them with more discipline and consistently than most pilots I see with paper ones.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I would never recommend memory in place of aircraft checklists.
Click to expand...
I don't think that's the point. There's been a fair bit of writing about how we should be using checklists as checklists rather than todo lists -- in other words, first we do each group of items from memory, then we use the checklist to confirm that we didn't miss anything. I'm not 100% sure where I stand on that, but it's the general discussion.

That means that you do need to memorize the routine and key emergency checklists first; it doesn't mean that you don't keep the lists as a second check on your memory.
 
David Megginson said:
That means that you do need to memorize the routine and key emergency checklists first; it doesn't mean that you don't keep the lists as a second check on your memory.
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I don't agree. Of course there's obviously some natural memorization, both mental and muscle, which takes place with repetition. After 20 years in Colorado the idea I might ever forget to adjust mixture boggles my mind. But flow-plus-check is not memorization-plus-check. I learned a long time ago not to rely on being able to memorize the procedures for the 30 or so different types of singles I've flown or even the 5 or 6 I fly regularly now. But I do have fairly consistent SOPs (habit patterns) and flow patterns I can use in all of them and back those up with the checklist.
 
Hi Tan, I use the checklists quite a bit with my GTN 750. I like this functionality.

FS 510 is also present in my GTN, although I don't think it does much to it. If you're wondering how to load the ACE file, just put it on the FS 510 card like any other SD card. I think the name has to be chklist.ace or something similar.

BTW, a tip I can share. If you download the Garmin simulator, you can navigate to the installation directory and drop the chklist.ace file there. That way it's possible to try the check list before going to the airplane.
 
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midlifeflyer said:
I don't agree. Of course there's obviously some natural memorization, both mental and muscle, which takes place with repetition. After 20 years in Colorado the idea I might ever forget to adjust mixture boggles my mind. But flow-plus-check is not memorization-plus-check. I learned a long time ago not to rely on being able to memorize the procedures for the 30 or so different types of singles I've flown or even the 5 or 6 I fly regularly now. But I do have fairly consistent SOPs (habit patterns) and flow patterns I can use in all of them and back those up with the checklist.
Click to expand...
Flow is a way of memorizing it (more effective than just rote learning the items). Again, the point that several aviation authors have made is that if you use the checklist as a to-do list to prompt you, then it's not really useful as a checklist to verify that you didn't miss something. I'm still making up my own mind on that point.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that,
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Sure, happily, but I'm curious what your reservation is.

When I memorise a classical guitar piece, I don't commit hundreds of individual notes to memory — instead, I learn flow of the phrases and chords, and then muscle memory takes my fingers to the right place while I'm playing. I'm pretty sure actors memorising lines work the same way. Learning flows always seemed to me to be the most-sensible way of memorising key action items in the cockpit, because it's so similar to memorisation techniques in other fields
 
CA182R said:
Hi Tan, I use the checklists quite a bit with my GTN 750. I like this functionality.

FS 510 is also present in my GTN, although I don't think it does much to it. If you're wondering how to load the ACE file, just put it on the FS 510 card like any other SD card. I think the name has to be chklist.ace or something similar.

BTW, a tip I can share. If you download the Garmin simulator, you can navigate to the installation directory and drop the chklist.ace file there. That way it's possible to try the check list before going to the airplane.
Click to expand...

THanks
 
It is a checklist, not a do list. Do your flow, then check and make sure you did it right.
 
David Megginson said:
Sure, happily, but I'm curious what your reservation is.
Click to expand...
Flow is a way of memorizing it.
Click to expand...
You see use of a cockpit flow as memorization technique. I don't. Part of it might simply be different definitions. I see "memorization" as a conscious process. I remember my childhood. I didn't memorize it.

As a result, I see flow and memorization as different techniques with different purposes. If I'm doing a standard T flow in a 172 (across the bottom and down the pedestal), I don't even have to memorize which switch is the Strobe and which the Beacon. (Good thing since I fly multiple types with very different configurations.)

Of course a collateral result of a flow is going to be remembering things. So is any form of repetition. Fly a 172 a lot at night and turn off the strobes and leave on the beacon on to prevent blinding that landing airplane and you are probably going to remember that the strobe is the one on the right of that groups of switches. But that's not memorization.
 
Groundpounder said:
It is a checklist, not a do list. Do your flow, then check and make sure you did it right.
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True (most of the time). But that's about how to use a checklist, not the form the checklist checklist takes. nd checklist can be used in all three ways — "do," "did," and "brief."
 
midlifeflyer said:
You see use of a cockpit flow as memorization technique. I don't. Part of it might simply be different definitions. I see "memorization" as a conscious process. I remember my childhood. I didn't memorize it.

As a result, I see flow and memorization as different techniques with different purposes. If I'm doing a standard T flow in a 172 (across the bottom and down the pedestal), I don't even have to memorize which switch is the Strobe and which the Beacon. (Good thing since I fly multiple types with very different configurations.)

Of course a collateral result of a flow is going to be remembering things. So is any form of repetition. Fly a 172 a lot at night and turn off the strobes and leave on the beacon on to prevent blinding that landing airplane and you are probably going to remember that the strobe is the one on the right of that groups of switches. But that's not memorization.
Click to expand...

Appreciate what you're saying here. You're making a subtle but meaningful distinction. I'm guessing you and David are closer to agreement in principle than may be obvious at first blush. Terminology can be a bit tricky.

I concur with the way you characterize a flow -- it's really not a form of memorization, it's a faster way of working through a checklist. We don't ever want or need to actually memorize a series of steps outlined in a checklist, a possible exception being when there is no checklist (J-3 Cub, etc.) That word, memorize, will get the attention of an instructor or flight crew. That's just not our goal with this.
 
midlifeflyer said:
You see use of a cockpit flow as memorization technique. I don't. Part of it might simply be different definitions. I see "memorization" as a conscious process. I remember my childhood. I didn't memorize it.

As a result, I see flow and memorization as different techniques with different purposes. If I'm doing a standard T flow in a 172 (across the bottom and down the pedestal), I don't even have to memorize which switch is the Strobe and which the Beacon. (Good thing since I fly multiple types with very different configurations.)

Of course a collateral result of a flow is going to be remembering things. So is any form of repetition. Fly a 172 a lot at night and turn off the strobes and leave on the beacon on to prevent blinding that landing airplane and you are probably going to remember that the strobe is the one on the right of that groups of switches. But that's not memorization.
Click to expand...
Fair enough. The word "memorisation" brings back bad memories for you :) we don't have to use it here.
 
Ryan F. said:
Appreciate what you're saying here. You're making a subtle but meaningful distinction. I'm guessing you and David are closer to agreement in principle than may be obvious at first blush. Terminology can be a bit tricky.

I concur with the way you characterize a flow -- it's really not a form of memorization, it's a faster way of working through a checklist. We don't ever want or need to actually memorize a series of steps outlined in a checklist, a possible exception being when there is no checklist (J-3 Cub, etc.) That word, memorize, will get the attention of an instructor or flight crew. That's just not our goal with this.
Click to expand...
I agree that we're talking about the same thing. As I mentioned with music, when we memorise a piece, we don't commit hundreds of notes to memory through rote learning (e.g. "OK, an A eighth note, then a C eighth note, then an E quarter note ...") — that would be insane (and impossible). We memorise pieces by learning the flow of the chords and phrases. Rote learning step-by-step is the worst possible technique for memorisation (inefficient, unreliable, and generally miserable). Instead, effective memorisation means finding ways to connect things and move through them, like a flow through gauges and switches on a panel, sequences of interrelated historical events and dates, phrases and chords (and repeated themes/motifs) in a musical piece, or lines/speeches in a play for an actor.
 
We’ve been using flows at the airlines for years. We don’t pick up a checklist until the Before Start Checklist. Everything prior to before starting engines is a memorized flow.


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Fracpilot said:
We’ve been using flows at the airlines for years. We don’t pick up a checklist until the Before Start Checklist. Everything prior to before starting engines is a memorized flow.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Thanks for sharing that. Is there any confirmation check afterwards that you didn't miss anything in your memorised flows, or do you just count on one pilot catching anything the other misses?
 
Fracpilot said:
We’ve been using flows at the airlines for years. We don’t pick up a checklist until the Before Start Checklist. Everything prior to before starting engines is a memorized flow.
Click to expand...
I guess that true of me too. My first checklist use is "Before Start"
 
midlifeflyer said:
I guess that true of me too. My first checklist use is "Before Start"
Click to expand...
Tan said:
Has anyone use the checklist function with their GTN 650 with flight stream 510 installed?
Click to expand...
Just to jump in now that it’s 2022. . . I too am curious if anyone is using the checklist function in the Garmins. Not going down the path of memory vs checklists, but am working on my ifr ticket and seems like an in-panel checklist that complements my plastic reference card would be superb.

Maybe there’s a spot in the forum to share best practices?

I’m digging in - will post if anything discovered is forum worthy…
 
David Megginson said:
Thanks for sharing that. Is there any confirmation check afterwards that you didn't miss anything in your memorised flows, or do you just count on one pilot catching anything the other misses?
Click to expand...

When the FO does the cockpit prep flow, the only way you know if he missed anything is in the avionics setup since it requires dual verification.

There is not a check for me to make sure he did all of the preflight checks such as the trim checks, annunciator lights, etc. It’s a trust based system. There is not a checklist afterwards to verify it.


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midlifeflyer said:
I guess that true of me too. My first checklist use is "Before Start"
Click to expand...

There’s a lot to accomplish before we call for the “before start checklist”


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Cris DeWitt said:
Just to jump in now that it’s 2022. . . I too am curious if anyone is using the checklist function in the Garmins. Not going down the path of memory vs checklists, but am working on my ifr ticket and seems like an in-panel checklist that complements my plastic reference card would be superb.

Maybe there’s a spot in the forum to share best practices?

I’m digging in - will post if anything discovered is forum worthy…
Click to expand...
I think that it doesn't matter whether one uses paper, one built into their EFB, one built into their panel, or a stand-alone app like MiraCheck. This is strictly a personal preference item.

I've seen pilots who use the Cirrus Perspective checklists so smoothly it's artistry. Same for EFB checklists. Me, every time I've tried it's been a major distraction from the task of flying. So, although I think electronic checklists are a great invention, I continue to use my custom paper checklists because they work for me and I actually use them in every phase of flight.

Use the checklist format you will actually use, not the one you think is cool.
 
Cris DeWitt said:
Just to jump in now that it’s 2022. . . I too am curious if anyone is using the checklist function in the Garmins. Not going down the path of memory vs checklists, but am working on my ifr ticket and seems like an in-panel checklist that complements my plastic reference card would be superb.

Maybe there’s a spot in the forum to share best practices?

I’m digging in - will post if anything discovered is forum worthy…
Click to expand...

I tried it briefly with the GTN650. I ran into a roadblock which didn't have an immediate solution but I quickly lost interest anyway, because the screen is too small to be very useful as a checklist. The roadblock seemed to be that the checklists had to be loaded on an SD card, and that required removing the FS510. I didn't play with it long enough to see if there might be a way to copy the checklist file to the GTN650 so that the FS510 could be reinstalled.

It would possibly be a better fit on the GTN750.
 
CA182R said:
Hi Tan, I use the checklists quite a bit with my GTN 750. I like this functionality.

FS 510 is also present in my GTN, although I don't think it does much to it. If you're wondering how to load the ACE file, just put it on the FS 510 card like any other SD card. I think the name has to be chklist.ace or something similar.

BTW, a tip I can share. If you download the Garmin simulator, you can navigate to the installation directory and drop the chklist.ace file there. That way it's possible to try the check list before going to the airplane.
Click to expand...
I have the GTN simulator on my iPad - how do I add the checklist file?
 
Ryan F. said:
I tried it briefly with the GTN650. I ran into a roadblock which didn't have an immediate solution but I quickly lost interest anyway, because the screen is too small to be very useful as a checklist. The roadblock seemed to be that the checklists had to be loaded on an SD card, and that required removing the FS510. I didn't play with it long enough to see if there might be a way to copy the checklist file to the GTN650 so that the FS510 could be reinstalled.
Click to expand...
You could write the file to the FS510 itself. Put the 510 in an SD slot on a computer, load the file and put it back in the GTN. The "SD Card" part of the 510 functions the same as any other SD card.
 
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