IIRC, the $500 is to evaluate the serviceability of the unit. If it cannot be repaired the $500 can be applied to the purchase of an equivalent, or greater, current model (GTNxi etc.).
Garmin G5 Yellow Heading & Warranty Saga (retitled)
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machkhatib
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Not sure what that Garmin 430 tangent was about…
Anyway, my avionics shop is pushing Garmin to replace the most troublesome G5. The anomaly was primarily afflicting the bottom G5 (as HSI) but my shop swapped it to the top unit (as AI). Well I flew again today and the anomalies followed that unit.
I even took a couple video clips for those who are interested:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1-4XHcaQRaRDaB8_e6pmftlH4KYW8mNAB
Anyway, my avionics shop is pushing Garmin to replace the most troublesome G5. The anomaly was primarily afflicting the bottom G5 (as HSI) but my shop swapped it to the top unit (as AI). Well I flew again today and the anomalies followed that unit.
I even took a couple video clips for those who are interested:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1-4XHcaQRaRDaB8_e6pmftlH4KYW8mNAB
Daleandee
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Dale Andee
Just a reference to a recent occurance by the fine folks at:
As for the thread drift ... I learned that from the fine folks at:
Pinecone
En-Route
It is a way of telling people to NOT ship their units to them to try to repaid.
machkhatib
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Update: Garmin is finally shipping us a new G5. It only took 4 months and dozens of shop hours of troubleshooting to finally get them to honor their warranty.
bnt83
Final Approach
What if it doesn't fix the issue? Tho it sure seems like it should.
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Meet the Fokkers
AV8R_87
Line Up and Wait
I'm in no way a Garmin defender, but (sadly) I don't find that fee to be excessive.
Garmin's labor rate is definitely in the $150/hr range, when you take into account taxes/health care/etc they have to pay for their employees and whatever % profit margin they have to tack to this, because they're definitely not a charity.
So that's three-ish hours total that will be needed by a tech to open it up, run a diagnostic, figure out what's wrong, look up parts availability, put it back together , then hand it to someone in shipping/receiving to send it back to you (same group who spent some time with the unit when it first arrived). There's probably a receiving inspector in there as well, charging some time.
And remember, it probably takes them the same amount of time to open it and fix it, if they had the parts, as it takes to open it and not fix it because they're out of the part needed for that unit. Those $500 that would normally go in your $1500 repar bill now have to go in your non-repair bill.
bnt83
Final Approach
Farm machinery dealer is $180 an hour
I say that all the time to the grumblers at my airport. You think Gamin is expensive, try John Deere.
hindsight2020
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Remind me not to put my entire basket of recreational aircraft navigation needs on a company that makes the lion's share of their revenue from selling tactical-bro watches. Hell they even make more selling boat radars than peddling avionics to this ever-shrinking space (OSH yearly snowjob notwithstanding).
I know nothing of marine avionics, other than to presume they fall somewhere above aviation but below automotive in the economies of scale continuum. Do they suffer from the same cost non-starter issues as cErTiFied aviation?
I've been digging more and more into automotive conversions on the experimental space, and I've fallen in love with their spirit. At least they're trying to democratize the cost of this thing, instead of peddling the same tired "economies of scale" status quo. Thank our lucky stars the FAA hasn't [functionally] shut down EAB yet.
I know nothing of marine avionics, other than to presume they fall somewhere above aviation but below automotive in the economies of scale continuum. Do they suffer from the same cost non-starter issues as cErTiFied aviation?
I've been digging more and more into automotive conversions on the experimental space, and I've fallen in love with their spirit. At least they're trying to democratize the cost of this thing, instead of peddling the same tired "economies of scale" status quo. Thank our lucky stars the FAA hasn't [functionally] shut down EAB yet.
AV8R_87
Line Up and Wait
I tell that to all the people who fall in love with a fully integrated and co-dependant Garmin (or even Dynon) cockpit. Wait until one (obsolete) box fails and inops your entire cockpit. Might work for the big boys, but at our level you want equipment diversity and the ability to do a simple swap of one box whenever it becomes obsolete.
I got a bad taste for Garmin service when my Audio Panel died. No loaners. No accelerated repair turnaround. You're grounded. Oh, unless you w ant to fork over money for a new unit, which we'll happily FEDEX to you overnight.
Pinecone
En-Route
The $150 per hour is what they charge, NOT what they pay the technician.
But I agree, 3 hours to receive, unpack, log, do the inspection and testing, write up results, repack, etc is reasonable.
FYI, a thread on another board, people are saying Porsche is now $450 per hour shop rate.
Pinecone
En-Route
Try Porsche. $450 per hour.
AV8R_87
Line Up and Wait
They pay a lot more in employment taxes, retirement benefits and medical than what the tech actually gets paid. And yes, there is a profit margin on top of that. But it's not a case of tech gets $40/hr and Garmin pockets $110/hr profit. If I were to hazard a guess, the profit is probably $30 out of that $150.
Bacho
Pre-takeoff checklist
Based off of the information provided, there is not conclusive evidence that the G5 is faulty IMO. Especially since your other G5 shows some issues in the same spot. I am curious as to what your new unit does.
You might greatly benefit some a fresh set of eyes on the issue.
You might greatly benefit some a fresh set of eyes on the issue.
Pinecone
En-Route
Agreed.
Loaded rate, with a reasonable 10% profit runs at least 110 - 125% of the pay rate. More with expenses like high end test equipment.
machkhatib
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The top G5 has been responsible for 80% (if not 90%) of the observed anomalies (regardless of what position it is in, whether on top as AI or on bottom as HSI). The top G5 exhibited the yellow heading anomaly on my most recent flight (Feb. 25th) while the bottom G5 did not. Our theory is that in the minority of instances where the bottom G5 has experienced the yellow heading anomaly, it is because of a heading mis-comparison with the top G5. In other words, we think the top G5 has been the problem all along.
Today (Feb. 28th) my avionics shop installed the new G5 sent by Garmin, replacing the top G5 under warranty. One interesting observation from my avionics shop during the AHRS calibration: the old top G5 was a full 1.0% off in AHRS alignment from the bottom G5. The new top G5 is only 0.2% off in AHRS alignment from the bottom G5. This is an encouraging sign. We think there was something internally wrong with the top G5 that was causing a bad AHRS and consequently, heading anomalies.
Today (Feb. 28th) my avionics shop installed the new G5 sent by Garmin, replacing the top G5 under warranty. One interesting observation from my avionics shop during the AHRS calibration: the old top G5 was a full 1.0% off in AHRS alignment from the bottom G5. The new top G5 is only 0.2% off in AHRS alignment from the bottom G5. This is an encouraging sign. We think there was something internally wrong with the top G5 that was causing a bad AHRS and consequently, heading anomalies.
NavAir
Pre-takeoff checklist
bnt83
Final Approach
Well, is it fixed?
MooneyDriver78
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Tom
That’s why I installed an AV20S attitude indicator, it’s completely independent of any Garmin boxes.
machkhatib
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No. Although it seems to have improved, I still got the yellow heading. Here’s how my latest flight went:
- Segment 1 (KPUJ-KRMG-KCZL): Immediately after takeoff, I got yellow heading anomalies on the top G5 (AI) and the bottom G5 (HSI). I took a video of my takeoff (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1XC46lTnPB9IRekhryW2bjkv68CghyQEP/view?usp=sharing) and I was able to catch the anomaly on the bottom unit at 1:10 in the video and the top unit at 3:15 in the video. The anomalies only occurred for the first 7 minutes or so, during my climb to 4,000 feet. The G5's then seemed to stabilize and I flew for another 45 minutes or so without any anomalies, shooting approaches into Rome and Calhoun. I shutdown at Calhoun, refueled, and hung out at the FBO for about 30 minutes.
- Segment 2 (KCZL-4A4): I departed Calhoun and flew to Cedar Town. Zero anomalies. I parked on the ramp and shut the plane down for a couple minutes.
- Segment 3 (4A4-KPUJ): I departed Cedar Town and flew back to Paulding. Zero anomalies.
uAvionix in that regard was exceptional. I've purchased two AV30C and one of them had an issue ofkeep going to default setup after every ignition turn off & on... Instead of as it supposed to stay on as you customize it to your liking...
I told them I don't want to fly with a hole on my panel and our A&P/IA is not employed at my home airport and a traveling guy and I need it immediately so he can switch them out and when he does I'll send the faulty one back.
They immediately shipped another brand new unit to me that day.
Guess what? That plane is sold and now I bought another plane which I'll upgrade the panel and guess which company I am going to ????
Garmin sucks at service and pricing...
I have a Aera 660 which was sold $849.00 which requires GDL50 that sells for $875.00 in order to show weather and traffic and then $150/yr subscription...
That means after spending $1874.00 + tax = $2047 I can finally see weather and traffic... While with Foreflight I can do all that for $200/yr while using my iPad mini...
Yes I know iPad heating up issues but you can get a cooling case for $180 from Sporty's and done with...
Plus you can have a rather nice larger screen compared to trying to read tiny font on 5 inch miniature Garmin Aera 660 screen.
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4RNB
Seems like a lot of bashing out of frustration, not necessarily out of fact.
I wonder if there is more to the story. As things are so connected, I'd suggest posting the entire plane set up. What you have, how old it is.
At this point, I'd also be taking it to another shop, because the current set of eyes is not good enough.
Sounds like Garmin treated you better than need be AND there is something else going on.
Thread title could just as well be about **** poor installation and poor diagnosis. Kind of a shame your shop did not debug before giving you the plane back. Mine flew several hours to debug.
I wonder if there is more to the story. As things are so connected, I'd suggest posting the entire plane set up. What you have, how old it is.
At this point, I'd also be taking it to another shop, because the current set of eyes is not good enough.
Sounds like Garmin treated you better than need be AND there is something else going on.
Thread title could just as well be about **** poor installation and poor diagnosis. Kind of a shame your shop did not debug before giving you the plane back. Mine flew several hours to debug.
It's a shame you bashed Garmin when it is not garmin. There hundreds if not thousands of us flying everyday with garmin reliably. I trust them with my life and family. I wouldn't trust your avionics shop like that.
My avionics shop took 9 work days to install 2 G5, 650, GMA345, GTX345, 4 audio jacks, GAD29, GMU11 magnetometer, GPS antenna.
Then it went back for 255 com/nav and indicator which took 3 days. Then it went back for a GFC500 which took another 9 days. They liked working on my plane since it was a virgin with original panel before they got there hands on it. Plus I bet a 172 is the simplest aircraft they work on. My GFC500 was only the 3rd one they had installed at that point in a 172.
They are local so I went over there about every other day after my work at about 4:30 pm when they were finishing up for the day so not to be in the way much. I took many pictures and they showed me what they did so far.
Scott was proud to show me the shielded magnetometer wiring they made just for my plane. Pointed out that they did testing to insure the magnetometer was going to work in it's location.
And it has worked well for 6 years now and 1200+ hrs. Scott in the picture flew with me for about 15 minutes to insure it all worked. It did and there was no issues or squawks for 650 hrs until a AP servo quit.
They removed the rubber mounts for the panel so it was rigid.
They also pointed out that they did this for the GPS ant, so the headliner would not have to come out when the time comes to replace it. Gave me a good chance to inspect sceet/scat air vent hoses and fuel lines rubber hoses that all have been replaced since then.
Then it went back for 255 com/nav and indicator which took 3 days. Then it went back for a GFC500 which took another 9 days. They liked working on my plane since it was a virgin with original panel before they got there hands on it. Plus I bet a 172 is the simplest aircraft they work on. My GFC500 was only the 3rd one they had installed at that point in a 172.
They are local so I went over there about every other day after my work at about 4:30 pm when they were finishing up for the day so not to be in the way much. I took many pictures and they showed me what they did so far.
Scott was proud to show me the shielded magnetometer wiring they made just for my plane. Pointed out that they did testing to insure the magnetometer was going to work in it's location.
And it has worked well for 6 years now and 1200+ hrs. Scott in the picture flew with me for about 15 minutes to insure it all worked. It did and there was no issues or squawks for 650 hrs until a AP servo quit.
They removed the rubber mounts for the panel so it was rigid.
They also pointed out that they did this for the GPS ant, so the headliner would not have to come out when the time comes to replace it. Gave me a good chance to inspect sceet/scat air vent hoses and fuel lines rubber hoses that all have been replaced since then.
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machkhatib
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Those who think I’m “bashing” Garmin must be convinced there is nothing wrong with the Garmin G5 hardware or software (which continues to be patched with updates) or stringing us along for 6 months.
tsts4
Pattern Altitude
I very much doubt that there's a single Aviaton vendor out there that has a spotless customer support record. My dealings with Garmin (both direct and through an Avionics shop) have been uneventful and timely, although not necessarily inexpensive. I have a full Garmin Panel (a mixture of certified/TSOd and non-certified) with ~550 hours on it (dual screen G3X EFIS, SL 30, GTN 650, and a G5 (which I installed last Spring). I had an EFIS screen die early on (they swapped it out for a new unit), a broken EFIS knob, and the COM side of the SL 30 died in flight (that was the expensive repair, although it's a flat fee). I mention all of this to simply illustrate that Garmin, and probably most other vendors, will have products and support history that spans the spectrum and that anecdotally Garmin's products seem above average in performance/reliability and customer support about average. YMMV.....
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My read of what you posted is that a new unit did not fix the problem.
Thus the problem is not with the unit.
Thus blaming Garmin is not accurate.
Thus, need to do something else.
Thus they were not stringing you along.
Bacho
Pre-takeoff checklist
As I concluded before you tried the replacement unit, there is not conclusive evidence posted that there was anything wrong with your original G5. Swapping the units for the same anomaly was serious evidence that its airframe side. Further anomalies on the replacement unit only goves more evidence of that.
For context, Flagging and more or less than another unit does not mean anything to me. It either faults or doesn't.
I manage aircraft maintenance, and I see the type of troubleshooting being performed here nearly every day. 95% of your mechanics will be convinced the fault lies in the LRU. I’ve seen boxes get changed five times with mechanics still convinced we’re just getting bad ones.
I believe you need a fresh set of eyes on this, and you need someone pretty sharp. Just because a person has done hundreds of installs, does not necessarily mean they are truly great at troubleshooting issues.
MooneyDriver78
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Tom
Makes me think there’s a bad connection somewhere, and the extra vibration or attitude is breaking the connection.
This would explain why it’s intermittent.
machkhatib
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I don’t know what to think anymore. I uploaded my data to another forum and one of the guys there put my last few flights on a graph for me. You can see the G5’s confidence level represented by the blue line. Altitude is the red line. The confidence sawtooths, starting each flight low and sometimes (but not always) gets better as time goes on. Whenever the blue line hits the bottom of the chart, that’s when the yellow heading appears.
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TrueCourse
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TrueCourse
What comes to mind when I consider the timing of the issue is that it’s related to temperature changes, or to a lesser extent, pressure changes.
I’m still with the others that new eyes need to look at your installation.
I’m still with the others that new eyes need to look at your installation.
MooneyDriver78
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This doesn’t change my opinion, bad connection somewhere is the problem, the shop needs to rebuild the entire wiring harness, could be the CAN bus, power supply, ground, I’d change the circuit breakers too.
I had issues with a new Garmin 255 radio, Garmin said radio was fine, shop said it wasn’t, there was argument, finally Garmin sent a replacement radio…it didn’t fix the problem. Turned out a new circuit breaker was defective, and was momentarily dropping power to the radio. Testing with a meter showed it was good, but they didn’t test it while under load.
All the problems caused by a $10 circuit breaker.
Bacho
Pre-takeoff checklist
$20 can get you an EMF detector on amazon. I would purchase one and try it out at various power settings and alternator loads.
If nothing else you can then detect ghosts in your house when done.
AV8R_87
Line Up and Wait
One additional thing to troubleshoot - vibrations in the panel. The DG function relies on rate gyros integrated over time. If you have high vibrations, it might throw them off faster than the magnetometer is allowed to correct. Does the G5 have a vibration monitor screen (I hope it does)? Take a look at it during flight.
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4RNB
I had an alternator field wire go bad during an engine install. My G5s never gave me yellow heading errors, they just shut down! I imagine there are a lot of old wires to deal with during avionics installs, similar could happen.
I hope the OP comes back and informs of his solution.
I hope the OP comes back and informs of his solution.
OP
Is the panel mounted ridge at the right angle?
Is the can bus wiring shielded going to the magnetometer?
Got any pictures of the installation?
After 1200 hours of use.
One of my strobe power supplies went out and I switched to a WAT triple flash and still no EMI problems with my magnetometer which where I think your problem lies?
Is the panel mounted ridge at the right angle?
Is the can bus wiring shielded going to the magnetometer?
Got any pictures of the installation?
After 1200 hours of use.
One of my strobe power supplies went out and I switched to a WAT triple flash and still no EMI problems with my magnetometer which where I think your problem lies?
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machkhatib
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There is a vibration test which runs the engine through different RPM levels. We performed it on the ground as per Garmin’s instructions and the G5’s passed.