Garmin Autoland

1RTK1

1RTK1

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Ralph
It’s cool and all. Can’t wait to hear about the affordable retrofit options
 
Cool stuff, but makes me wonder how many lawyers come out of the woodwork when someone hits the button and there's no place to land.

 
asicer said:
Cool stuff, but makes me wonder how many lawyers come out of the woodwork when someone hits the button and there's no place to land.

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If you watch the videos and read some about the logic, it finds the best suitable airport. IOW, the only "no place to land" scenario should be if the pilot has already set him/herself up for a bad situation with insufficient fuel to make it to the airport.

Remember, this assumes a "perfectly good airplane" not an engine out scenario.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
If you watch the videos and read some about the logic, it finds the best suitable airport. IOW, the only "no place to land" scenario should be if the pilot has already set him/herself up for a bad situation with insufficient fuel to make it to the airport.

Remember, this assumes a "perfectly good airplane" not an engine out scenario.
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What does it do if the engine is out and you press the button?
I assume it just play sthe sad Wah Wah Eah sound effect.

But for real what would it do?
 
Does it crash into the other airplanes on the runway?
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
What does it do if the engine is out and you press the button?
I assume it just play sthe sad Wah Wah Eah sound effect.

But for real what would it do?
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I wonder if there is ever a plan to integrate this with CAPS. Maybe then it could pitch to CAPS deployment speed and pull the chute and alert emergency services? That being said, I’m sure Cirrus is wary of giving anything beyond a physical handle pull the authority to deploy such a system.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
What does it do if the engine is out and you press the button?
I assume it just play sthe sad Wah Wah Eah sound effect.

But for real what would it do?
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That's a good question and I don't know the answer off the top of my head.
 
bnt83 said:
Does it crash into the other airplanes on the runway?
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I bet if it is squawking and not talking, they would clear the runway.
Assuming a controlled field.

Hey if the pilot wakes up, can he call it off?
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Hey if the pilot wakes up, can he call it off?
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Yes. It can be deactivated at any time.

So let's say you get hypoxic and pass out up high. The autoland can automatically initiate. Then you wake up somewhere around 5,000 ft let's say, plane getting itself set up for autoland. You can either let it continue or you can disable it and resume flying yourself.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
...the only "no place to land" scenario should be if the pilot has already set him/herself up for a bad situation with insufficient fuel to make it to the airport.
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True, but that situation isn't totally unthinkable either. Pilot gets to the destination and it's closed due to an accident. Goes to the alternate and the weather is too low. On their way to the third airport the stress gives the pilot a heart attack.
 
asicer said:
True, but that situation isn't totally unthinkable either. Pilot gets to the destination and it's closed due to an accident. Goes to the alternate and the weather is too low. On their way to the third airport the stress gives the pilot a heart attack.
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It's easy to come up with the corner cases of corner cases where something could potentially get boxed into failure. No product (be it hardware, software, or a combination) is without risk. In the airline world, 10e-9 is the acceptable risk of a dual engine failure. Sure, pilots run out of fuel far more often than they have medical emergencies in flight and like any feature it's almost certain someone will misuse it and post a video on YouTube, just like has been done with the parachute. People have used synthetic vision as a justification for flying in IMC without an instrument rating or even an IFR flight plan, every feature that makes flying safer has the potential to be abused.
 
I received an email announcement on this from Garmin. Among other things, it had a link to a page about the limitations of the system:

Autoland System Limitations

Autoland is designed to be used in emergency situations only and should not be used in nonemergency situations where the pilot is fully capable of landing the aircraft. Autoland directs the aircraft to a suitable airport nearby for landing based upon a variety of conditions, including, but not limited to, weather, terrain, approach, runway and aircraft suitability. The airport list for Autoland is comprised of any suitable airports within a 200 nautical mile radius, any airports the aircraft has passed since power on within 200 nautical miles and the destination airport in the flight plan when Autoland is activated. For aircraft that are located in remote areas or over large bodies of water, Autoland may not be able to land the aircraft due to these limitations. Autoland may not function if the aircraft is experiencing mechanical issues or fuel exhaustion, or if the flight controls are not able to move freely. Autoland also requires the Garmin avionics and AFCS systems to be operational for the feature to land the aircraft.​

https://www.garmin.com/en-US/legal/ALuse/
 
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Guy: "Honey lets get the vision jet instead of the SR22".
Wife: "Its a jet isn't that more dangerous that the one with the propeller?"
Guy: "Na, more expensive but fits our whole family, faster and has the....parachute ;)"
Wife: " I don't know..."
Guy: "There is a button you can press and it will land itself".
Wife: "I love you! I get to the pick the colors."
 
Sinistar said:
Guy: "Honey lets get the vision jet instead of the SR22".
Wife: "Its a jet isn't that more dangerous that the one with the propeller?"
Guy: "Na, more expensive but fits our whole family, faster and has the....parachute ;)"
Wife: " I don't know..."
Guy: "There is a button you can press and it will land itself".
Wife: "I love you! I get to the pick the colors."
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The parachute sold a lot of planes on essentially that conversation.
 
Hey Ted, what market is this system targeting? Obviously not the 172/182 crowd.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Hey Ted, what market is this system targeting? Obviously not the 172/182 crowd.
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I'm not sure why you'd say "obviously", as the feature has safety benefits to any single pilot aircraft.

It will be initially offered in the Piper M600 (PA46T) and Cirrus Vision Jet (SF50).
 
How does it specifically locate the runway vs a taxiway vs the grass between? How does it know what altitude to flare at? is GPS accurate enough by itself or are there additional sensors? Does it automatically pick the runway with the most favorable winds? Does IFR cause any issues or can it land in 0/0 conditions?
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I'm not sure why you'd say "obviously", as the feature has safety benefits to any single pilot aircraft.

It will be initially offered in the Piper M600 (PA46T) and Cirrus Vision Jet (SF50).
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You know what they say about assumptions. But my assumption was that the price point for the system would make it unfeasible for the lower price end of the market. I would think that there wouldn’t be a demand for a system that cost a huge percentage of the price of the aircraft.
 
It has almost all the safety benefits of staying on the ground.

If, however, safety isn't you're top priority (and if it is, you shouldn't be flying GA), then it solves a one-in-a-million problem, likely at a price point approaching that figure. It falls into the "who cares" category for me. Both because I'll never buy or partner in a factory-new at those price points, and because I prefer piloting to passengering.

I will not mock those whose tails are wagging at the prospect, however, just as I don't mock the folks who have embraced the 'chute. The stats on saves are inflated, but that doesn't mean quite a few deployments were not real-world life savers. I imagine this feature will have a few "real" saves, as well; just not nearly enough to justify the cost in $$$$ and complexity, at least not for me.
 
Sundancer said:
and because I prefer piloting to passengering.
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Thing of it is, it is a system you absolutely do not need until you DESPERATELY need it. It is basically designed as a way to mitigate an incapacitation event. And you can be the Bob Hoover of pilots but that won’t do you diddly squat worth of good if you are unconscious.
 
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Greg Bockelman said:
You know what they say about assumptions. But my assumption was that the price point for the system would make it unfeasible for the lower price end of the market. I would think that there wouldn’t be a demand for a system that cost a huge percentage of the price of the aircraft.
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Like any feature it's easy to price people out of it and the first iteration is going to be expensive.

Let's think about how glass cockpits evolved. Roughly 30 years ago they started appearing in airlines. Then in the early 2000s the G1000 came to market, with a couple of retrofit glass PFDs that were really expensive and not very good. Now it's often cheaper to equip an aircraft with glass than with old tech.

So, I think it's important to look at the big picture and realize that big things like this are not going to immediately become available to everyone overnight, but that there's a first step and growth that will happen.

Or the market could reject the prospect as a whole, but given the popularity of the 'chute, I doubt it.
 
On the other hand, the system won’t do you diddly squat worth of good if you can’t engage it before you become unconscious.

And as PIC, if you are flying an airplane with the system, it should be mandatory to thoroughly brief all passengers on how and when to use the system.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
On the other hand, the system won’t do you diddly squat worth of good if you can’t engage it before you become unconscious.

And as PIC, if you are flying an airplane with the system, it should be mandatory to thoroughly brief all passengers on how and when to use the system.
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False, Greg. The system can automatically engage OR you can push the button.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
False, Greg. The system can automatically engage OR you can push the button.
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Shows my ignorance, I guess. I haven’t seen enough information on it to understand all the ins and outs of how it works.

But I stand by my statement about a thorough passenger briefing.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Thing of it is, it is a system you absolutely do not need until you DESPERATELY need it. It is basically designed as a way to mitigate an incapacitation event. And you can be the Bob Hoover of pilots but that won’t do you diddly squat worth of good if you are unconscious.
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Oh, I get it, I understand the intent. But, just my opinion, it's an extremism - I probably wouldn't spend $$$ on a meteor shield for my house, either. I mean, I could take a hit, but the likelihood is within my risk tolerance threshold.

I'm not advocating a law to stop Garmin from selling it - it just strikes me as, well, silly. Maybe a bit more worthwhile on high-flyers, perhaps. But if someone else finds it attractive and worthwhile, no worries.
 
High dollar owner files a flight plan to his destination, climbs to cruise altitude, continues above a cloud deck to the vicinity of the destination airport, and pushes the button.

On the runway, hit reset, taxi to the ramp, and call a cab, tell the line boy to fill it up and park it for the return flight.

Who needs an IR, if the plane comes equipped?

Nice safety feature, but sure to be abused. It is not like the parachute option that leaves you with a plane that may never fly again. Another what if? The ATIS advises a temporary closure for pothole repair, and the truck full of asphalt and spreading equipment is on the runway for half an hour? Does the software understand voice messages from the ATIS or tower person?

I suppose that the software has some type of go around signal that will become standard at all towered airports in the future, but that feature will have to be standard before Autoland should be approved by the FAA.
 
geezer said:
High dollar owner files a flight plan to his destination, climbs to cruise altitude, continues above a cloud deck to the vicinity of the destination airport, and pushes the button.

On the runway, hit reset, taxi to the ramp, and call a cab, tell the line boy to fill it up and park it for the return flight.

Who needs an IR, if the plane comes equipped?
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Since the plane squawks (7700) and talks to ATC about the emergency nature of the situation (and possibly listens/interacts with ATC), I don't anticipate that casual use will be a problem.
 
I wish they would share the initial trials, especially if the cams in the cockpit to see how many tries it took before the pilot allowed the complete autoland. Would really like to see a trial where when faced with only smaller uncontrolled airports which one it selected and how the actual landing went.
 
F01LA said:
Since the plane squawks (7700) and talks to ATC about the emergency nature of the situation (and possibly listens/interacts with ATC), I don't anticipate that casual use will be a problem.
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Undoubtedly you will see people try to abuse it at some point. But since this is a feature being sold on new aircraft, you can bet that its proper use will be covered in great detail on initial training.

But the outlined scenario above? (hit the button, hit reset, walk away) won't go well with the FSDO.
 
I like this. If I could afford it, I would have one. I believe in the video it stated that it does not increase the cost on the Piper M600 (PA46T). Of course that is like saying no haggle car dealerships give the buyer the absolute best price.....o_O

I had a heart attack while driving. It could have happened while flying. I never lost consciousness and even drove myself to the emergency room, but if it had happened while flying the extra stress of knowing I might pass out with passengers onboard could have done me in.

What is the dollar amount of a human life.??
 
Piper claimed the system didn't add any cost to the M600 (who knows if that's true). What I do find amazing is how much people are willing to mock a system which is simply just another layer of safety. If you don't want it? Fine don't get it and/or use it, but what does it harm you that Garmin has invested in it and there are those who want it? It is often lamented how little innovation in GA there is, well here is some innovation! Who among us saw this coming? It's pretty amazing tech and capability for the price point it is at.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I want a Vision jet next year just so I can tell people I have a.......


Wait for it.....





2020 Vision..

$2 mil. for that punchline would be totally worth it.
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N2020V wouldn't be a bad tail number either. The guy with the Cessna 140 who has it could probably make a few $$$$.
 
skier said:
How does it specifically locate the runway vs a taxiway vs the grass between? How does it know what altitude to flare at? is GPS accurate enough by itself or are there additional sensors? Does it automatically pick the runway with the most favorable winds? Does IFR cause any issues or can it land in 0/0 conditions?
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It knows where the runway is from the same database it uses to create the runway presentation it uses in the synthetic vision system—measured highly accurately—same with the centerline. It uses the radar altimeter to gauge distance above the runway surface to initiate the flare. It does pick the runway with the most favorable winds, based on its onboard weather data from XM or ADS-B. It can land in zero-zero conditions because it’s all based on database info already on the airplane, the GPS position, and reference to the GPS approach procedure. No cameras involved, as have been proposed on some other such systems. My article on the AOPA site has quite a few details on how it works: https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2020/january/pilot/hands-off
 
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Greg Bockelman said:
Shows my ignorance, I guess. I haven’t seen enough information on it to understand all the ins and outs of how it works.

But I stand by my statement about a thorough passenger briefing.
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Good point about a thorough passenger briefing.

The system will engage automatically if the pilot hasn’t interacted with the panel in some way for about 15 minutes. At that point a message appears on the panel: “Are you alert?” If no one touches a key within a minute or so, the system automatically goes into Autoland mode. Of course, if you’re just snoozing and wake up, you can override it by hitting the AP button or the AP Disconnect button. Of course, ATC by then will know something is up because it will be squawking 7700 and broadcasting its automated message.
 
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