Garmin 650 vs 750

LarkFlyer

LarkFlyer

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LarkFlyer
I'm planning to upgrade my panel with the next Garmin rebate program. I'm debating if the extra $5 or so is worth it for the 750, or I should save it for the Garmin Autopilot in near future??? I have a seen a few people swap out a 650 for the 750... Thoughts?
 
Does size matter to you?

(opening up the well known can of POA worms)
 
I think I have the room.... otherwise another option I'm considering is the used 530 WAAS.
750 is 6" high
530 is 4.6
current KMD 150 is 4"
430 is 2.65
650 is 2.6"
 
What does your panel look like now? This is what mine looks like post upgrade, and I'm plenty happy with the 650. Rarely do I even touch it except to accept a flight plan from ForeFlight or Garmin Pilot via the FS510. The biggest difference from the 750 to the 650 (other than the sheer size) is that you have to sometimes scroll to get to things that otherwise would be displayed on the bigger screen of the 750. I don't recall if you can do the virtual audio panel on the 650 like you can on the 750, but my GTX345 is available virtually through the 650. If you are a previous or current GNS user, you will find the GTN series to be very intuitive to you. I tried both the GTN and IFD series ahead of time via their respective training apps, and was more easily able to transition to the GTN. Not that the IFD was impossible for me, just less intuitive for me personally since I was so Garmin-ized. I also use an iPad mini on the yoke to do most of my work, and if I touch anything, it's usually the 796 (that is acting like a MFD) to view things like weather or traffic.

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My panel is very dated.
My current thinking is to stack as follows;
GMA 345 (re
GTN 650 or 750 (replace KMD 150)
KX 155 (current)
GTX 345 ADS B in/out to 650/750
 

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I fly with a GNS430W, have some good expereince with a GNS530W and recently have flown 30+ hours IFR with a GTN750. I'm making the assumption that you likely also have a tablet in the plane, so I'll give you my 2 cents and the first one is to save yourself the $5000 and go with the 650 if you're dying for a touchscreen and that'll pay for your GCF-500 autopilot.

With a few differences, the GTN650/750 are essentially GNS430/530Ws with touchscreen interfaces and just a couple of buttons, which I find as an annoyance. The other major differences are the interconnectability with other avionics using flightstream devices, which are pretty cool...I can put the flight plan in my tablet and press a button to load it into the GTN750 through the flightstream. You can do that with the GNS units with a flightstream 210 (for about $1000). Unlike the GNS430/530W, you can only access some on-screen buttons while on the default map screen, like the CDI select and OBS mode. On the GNS units they are always right there when and where you need them. To select a procedure, hit home, then procedure, then select the procedure, the transition, and load or activate. It's a little easier on the GNS units.

The main problem I have with the GTN is the touchscreen entry. On the ground it's fine. In the air, with a little turbulence, it's easy to mis-key, then have to backspace. The little ridges on the sides of the box are not really enough to stabilize your hane, but it was a nice thought. The knobs work better here and fortunately Garmin realized that as well and left the right lower side knobs you can still use to do that. The other annoying thing is having to clean the screen.

The GTNs are nice and the screen resolutions are much better, but the capabilities are basically the same as the GNS units. If I was making the choice, with an eye to functionality without regard to cost, I would do this:
Get a good bluetooth audio panel - Get for getting clearances and for music
Get a 530W (one overhauled by the factory) and install a Flightstream 210 (gives you AHRS and tablet to 530W connectivity).
Make sure that you have a solid NAV/COM #2
ADS-B Out...Gotta Have it. The 530W can provie the position, so you need a transponder to squawk it out. A UAT device is also an option for ADS-B out and you could still use your current mode C transponder. Look at Freeflight systems RANGR 978 LITE ADS-B "Out" SYSTEM as an example for undet $1700.
ADS-B In...Depending on your tablet platform and software, use a Stratus or GDL39 device. There is no real advantage to an installed ADS-B In solution and the portable route is pretty economic.
 
If the bigger screen is desirable but the extra expense isn’t... at least take a look at an Avidyne IFD 440. With the IFD you can run a slaved iPad (IFD 100 app) that essentially gives you a big 2nd screen for the gps movin map / weather / flight plan / etc.

This isn’t intended to create a Garmin vs Avidyne debate. I’m simply tossing out another option that imho takes care of the two birds with one stone. Garmin makes great stuff. No knock on the 650 or 750. Simply suggesting they aren’t the only options.

To see this combo in action look up YouTube videos from Baronpilot. He has a 440 and uses the IFD 100 app on every flight.
 
We opted for the 750. Aside from just the larger screen size, the ability to have the entire "soft" keyboard on the screen at once instead of scrolling was a big selling point.

That said, we also got the FlightStream 510 and I haven't actually used the on-screen keyboard yet. :rofl: I'm sure I will at some point, but the ease of transferring plans from the iPad (and the fact that I'm generally planning flights at home in advance) means I'm not using the keyboard nearly as much.

We also have both eight full-time data fields on the map (one on each corner of the map plus four in the bar at the top of the screen). Desired Track, Track, Groundspeed, ETA, etc. all available at a glance. It doesn't look like the 650 has any of those on the map screen based on that link above. We also have the transponder (GTX345) hooked up and can see our squawk on the GTN and change it there if we want, though we did not opt for a remote transponder.

I don't at all regret springing for it. Yeah, it's $5K more but when you consider that it costs about the same to install either one, the percentage is a bit closer. And it's beautiful. :)

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I fly with both. The difference pretty much comes down to size, which has some effect on function. For example, on the 650 you have separate Nav1 and Map pages. On the 750 they are combined. Some things that are all visible on the 750 page, require scrolling on the 650.
 
I would consider, changing out my 530w for a 650.
 
frfly172 said:
I would consider, changing out my 530w for a 650.
Click to expand...

Forget that, maybe a 750 if I had a need for the touch screen kool kid factor.


The larger screw is always better, just a matter of if you have the $$ and panel real estate to afford it.
 
frfly172 said:
I would consider, changing out my 530w for a 650.
Click to expand...

I have a GNS 530/430 combo in the Aztec. There is absolutely no way I would trade that for either GTN.

I get enough touchscreen with the iPad, and don't like it enough to want to add more, especially in the panel. And the GTNs are not slide-ins, so there's not enough benefit over the still very capable GNS WAAS units to justify the install cost imo.

But, if your 530 is non-WAAS and you are thinking about upgrading it, it might make sense to avoid that cost, sell the 530/backplate and use all those funds towards a 650.
 
If going with the 750 means show stopper on the AP, I vote skip it and do AP and 650.

I like the suggestion above by SBest regarding adding a 530W, FS210 and the AP. I have a 430/530 combo too and am considering dumping the 430, and adding a second navcom, the fs210 and ADSB (new transponder).
 
You got a lot of ideals wow all were pretty good 750 easy to get got good vise ably auto pilot a must
 
We went 650. No desire for on screen approach plates and the smaller screen didn’t bother us. Especially with the Flightstream 510 installed.
 
If you have the room - A big screen is nice. I wouldn't bother paying to install a 430/430W any more; with limited panel space the 650 with FS510 is the way to go. However, a 530W *with* a FlightStream 210 still makes sense - You get the nice big screen, and while you still have knobs, editing your flight plan via the iPad keeps you from having to do the good ol' twist-o-rama. The main thing you're missing with a GNS instead of the GTN is that you can't get the FlightStream 510 and its Database Concierge functionality, you still have to have one of the old USB->Garmin updaters and use the ancient, proprietary Garmin data cards. There will come a time when the amount of data will require getting a subscription for a smaller geographic area with those.

One thing I was a bit surprised by is that the depiction of the weather radar is WAY better in ForeFlight on the iPad than it is on the screen of the 750, even when the iPad is getting its data from the same source (GTX 345). Maybe it's better on the weather page, I haven't used that yet - But on the map page, it's really large blocks. It's enough to tell you to look at the iPad anyway, but pretty much unusable for doing anything but going way out and around any weather systems. Still, I'm used to using the iPad for weather anyway so no big loss.
 
The size of the 750 certainly is nice...but...If you are flying with an iPad (like most people do) the size benefit of the 750 isn't as appealing. I fly with a 650 and iPad mini. It's a great setup. Having the full screen 750 will save you maybe 3 seconds of your life when entering a flight plan. Plus you will have added expense if you want to keep your charts current on the 750.
 
why isn't anybody ever considering the perfectly hybrid Bendix KSN770
and don't tell me that the company is crap.......
 
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j-p said:
why isn't anybody ever considering the perfectly hybrid Bendix KSN770
and don't telle me that the company is crap.......
Click to expand...

I think the problem is that Garmin is so well established in the GA market and Bendix/HW has been pretty quiet on the GA front for quite some time now. There is no price benefit with the KSN 770 (maybe I am wrong). I just couldn't see going with the KSN770 when you have GTN series and no price difference to really substantiate the KSN770.
 
j-p said:
why isn't anybody ever considering the perfectly hybrid Bendix KSN770
and don't telle me that the company is crap.......
Click to expand...

Okay, the company is " out of fashion" (in the light aircraft GA market).

Bendix had a fully decked out center stack (customer?) Aztec on display at OSH last summer. I went by twice during the week. Unlike Garmin and Avidyne, which were generally crowded and required waiting for a rep, there was nobody else around, potential customers or Bendix reps. The prevailing opinion is Honeywell is abandoning the lower echelons of GA to concentrate on private jets and commercial turboprop systems. What I saw at OSH reinforced that.
 
j-p said:
why isn't anybody ever considering the perfectly hybrid Bendix KSN770
and don't tell me that the company is crap.......
Click to expand...

(rant mode on)

Sorry... The company is crap, and so is their KSN 770 GPS. My panel was full of their stuff, and at this point I can't wait to get rid of the rest of it.

One example: I had trouble with a trim servo for my KFC150. HBK wanted $9600 for an overhaul exchange. Minor detail: They had no servos to exchange. Can I send mine in? Sure, we'll get to it... Whenever. Probably in the next few months.

They're pulling back their field support, asking avionics shops to destroy service manuals and no longer supplying parts. This is what Narco used to do. Remember Narco? I had to deal with Narco stuff in an older club plane. Radio went on the fritz, we had to send it back to the factory and there was a hole in the panel for FOURTEEN MONTHS waiting for them to fix it at the factory. Again, remember Narco? They ain't around any more, and good riddance. But for some reason, HBK is following the same path.

Back to that trim servo - Guess who got it going again? The component guy at my avionics shop. HBK basically told me to take a hike. I refuse to buy new equipment from a company that won't support their existing equipment. Not to mention, it cost roughly 1/30th of what HBK was going to charge me.

My King AI (KI-256) is still hanging on, barely. Since it's an integral part of the autopilot system and has a flight director, overhaul cost (not through HBK) would be around $6,000 - Not even close to worth it in this day and age. But what are my options to replace it? Garmin makes some (Gx00, Gx00 TXi), Aspen makes theirs, and King? King has the KI-300 which they announced at OSH 2016 and said it was shipping "Q3", and that slipped enough that by the time OSH 2017 rolled around and they said it was shipping in "Q4", I sarcastically asked, "Which year?" to which their rep said - I wish I was kidding - "2018. WAIT!!! I mean 2017!" Guess what, still not shipping. If it craps out tomorrow, ironically, we wouldn't even be able to buy anything from King and we'd end up going with Garmin. Oh, and did I mention the KI300 costs about 3 times what competing products do? I could actually get an entire Aspen and toss both the KI-256 and the KI-525 and gain GPSS in the process and it'd cost less than the KI-300 right now. They're milking their former monopoly for all it's worth.

So yeah, I'm sorry, but the company is crap.

Then there's their GPS offering, the KSN770 that you mention. I inquired about that, figuring that maybe it'd be a relatively simple thing to replace a King GPS and a King radio with it, without requiring significant panel rework. Nope. The interesting thing with the 770 is that you can access all its functions either by touchscreen *or* by knobs, choosing whichever you want for the particular situation. Sadly, that's the last good idea they had, and it has hands down the worst user interface I've seen in GA, really one of the worst UIs I've seen for any piece of electronics. You can't even get it to go direct to a fix without reading the manual. Again, I wish I was kidding.

So let's see - A GPS unit that offers no price advantage, no installation time/cost advantage even though it was replacing their own (very popular) equipment, is really difficult to use, and is sold by a company that has terrible support? Sign me right up. :no:

(rant off)
 
I don't understand why HBK remains in the light GA market at all. There's not enough new light airplane production to support Garmin (1000) + Avidyne (Entegra) + one other. It's the margins on new aircraft OEM that supports the development effort for derivative products. HBK should be concerned; Garmin has made some significant inroads in the higher value single turboprop and light jet markets too.
 
GRG55 said:
I don't understand why HBK remains in the light GA market at all. There's not enough new light airplane production to support Garmin (1000) + Avidyne (Entegra) + one other. It's the margins on new aircraft OEM that supports the development effort for derivative products. HBK should be concerned; Garmin has made some significant inroads in the higher value single turboprop and light jet markets too.
Click to expand...

To me RC and HW are in for a tough fight, you would not believe how many jets are sporting G products. Heck even the new Citation TEN (formerly Citation X aka Cessna 750) is G. That's not a light jet.
 
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