Garmin 430W and remaining in hold

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I'm a little rusty/dusty after a long, cold, winter, and my memory isn't too good. When flying a hold/reversal at the start of an RNAV approach, and if I want to remain in the hold for a few turns, what is the Garmin 430w procedure? I think, if my memory serves me, it involves the "SUSP" button, but then again, maybe I'm remembering it actually asks you if you're leaving or remaining...I don't recall...thanks.
 
Just press the SUSP button (OBS button actually). You will stay in the hold forever, until you press the button again. That's it.
 
Just press the SUSP button (OBS button actually). You will stay in the hold forever, until you press the button again. That's it.
Awesome, thanks!

BTW, I don't know why, but there's something about that "SUSP" button that my mind has a hard time grasping...on missed approaches too....
 
Awesome, thanks!

BTW, I don't know why, but there's something about that "SUSP" button that my mind has a hard time grasping...on missed approaches too....
It just suspends sequencing. It automatically suspends sequencing at the Missed Approach Point. You have to push the OBS button to get it going again. Don’t do it right away. I don’t remember exactly what it is, but it does weird things if you do it to low, like below 400 feet or so. You should be doing more important things then anyway. @midlifeflyer ???

EDIT: Or maybe it’s not do it to low, but just make sure you wait until actually passing the Missed Approach Point.
 
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It just suspends sequencing. It automatically suspends sequencing at the Missed Approach Point. You have to push the OBS button to get it going again. Don’t do it right away. I don’t remember exactly what it is, but it does weird things if you do it to low, like below 400 feet or so. You should be doing more important things then anyway. @midlifeflyer ???

EDIT: Or maybe it’s not do it to low, but just make sure you wait until actually passing the Missed Approach Point.

It's the latter. At the MAP it automatically goes into SUSP mode, and you are un-SUSPending it after you cross the MAP, so you can fly the missed approach. If you press it before you get to the MAP (most likely scenario is you're flying a vertically-guided approach where you actually start the missed at DA which is maybe 0.5 nm before the MAP), then you accidentally SUSPend it with the active waypoint as the MAP, which does not have the desired result of taking you on the missed approach. In fact, most commonly it will just plot a line straight ahead and there you go, straight ahead right into the mountain.

Problem is, on many RNAV approaches the missed approach does take you straight ahead, so you don't immediately notice the difference. But since the missed approach in this case is not active, it will not provide you with guidance to/around the hold, it will just take you straight out forever.
 
Awesome, thanks!

BTW, I don't know why, but there's something about that "SUSP" button that my mind has a hard time grasping...on missed approaches too....

Maybe that's because the SUSP operation is actually done with the OBS key.
 
Maybe that's because the SUSP operation is actually done with the OBS key.
No, I get that part (it does blink "susp" right above the OBS key, after all). I think it has more to do with what @RussR said, how it automaticallly suspends, then you unsuspend, but how you have to do it at the right point.
 
My question is just the opposite. My 530W doesn't seem to sequence automatically. I wind up activating the leg to the FAF. The few times I've waited, it puts me in the hold. I would like to have it go directly to the FA course unless I hit SUSP. Is there a setting for that? Seems rare on an RNAV T that you're going to do the HILPT.
 
My question is just the opposite. My 530W doesn't seem to sequence automatically. I wind up activating the leg to the FAF. The few times I've waited, it puts me in the hold. I would like to have it go directly to the FA course unless I hit SUSP. Is there a setting for that? Seems rare on an RNAV T that you're going to do the HILPT.
It can't go Direct to a segment. It needs a Waypoint. It sounds like you're looking to load Vectors to Final. You could activate a Leg. But that is going to make the Waypoint at the end the leg the Next Fix.
 
It's the latter. At the MAP it automatically goes into SUSP mode, and you are un-SUSPending it after you cross the MAP, so you can fly the missed approach. If you press it before you get to the MAP (most likely scenario is you're flying a vertically-guided approach where you actually start the missed at DA which is maybe 0.5 nm before the MAP), then you accidentally SUSPend it with the active waypoint as the MAP, which does not have the desired result of taking you on the missed approach. In fact, most commonly it will just plot a line straight ahead and there you go, straight ahead right into the mountain.
Seems like a prime rule for the 400W/500W series is to understand that DA is not the box's MAP. Garmin got smarter as they moved beyond the 400W/500Wseries. Perhaps the 480 is smarter (not developed by Garmin). I've always heard its fan club say it is better then the 400W/500W boxes.
 
My question is just the opposite. My 530W doesn't seem to sequence automatically. I wind up activating the leg to the FAF. The few times I've waited, it puts me in the hold. I would like to have it go directly to the FA course unless I hit SUSP. Is there a setting for that? Seems rare on an RNAV T that you're going to do the HILPT.

I'm not entirely clear on the sequence of events you mean here, but I did notice that at some point a few years ago, it seemed like the 430W/530W stopped asking "Fly Course Reversal?" when you'd enter an IAF that had a HILPT, and now just put in the HILPT and you have to remove it if you don't want it. I'm not sure if this is related to the firmware version itself, or the way the procedure database is coded, but it's been noticeable.

If you're saying the HILPT appears when you don't want it, just cursor mode, highlight it, and CLR it out. Does that seem like it would help your situation?
 
Seems like a prime rule for the 400W/500W series is to understand that DA is not the box's MAP. Garmin got smarter as they moved beyond the 400W/500Wseries. Perhaps the 480 is smarter (not developed by Garmin). I've always heard its fan club say it is better then the 400W/500W boxes.

Correct. The MAP for the 430/530/non-W/W is just the charted LNAV MAP, or if there isn't an LNAV line of minima, the runway threshold. To be fair, the architecture of the 430/530 is getting close to 30 years old when you consider development time (release in 1997?).
 
I'm not entirely clear on the sequence of events you mean here, but I did notice that at some point a few years ago, it seemed like the 430W/530W stopped asking "Fly Course Reversal?" when you'd enter an IAF that had a HILPT, and now just put in the HILPT and you have to remove it if you don't want it. I'm not sure if this is related to the firmware version itself, or the way the procedure database is coded, but it's been noticeable.

If you're saying the HILPT appears when you don't want it, just cursor mode, highlight it, and CLR it out. Does that seem like it would help your situation?
Yes. That's the problem. It wants to fly the HILPT no matter what. On a T, almost all of the time they're going to clear you straight in. I never got a message "Fly Course Reversal," it just did it.

I'll try clearing the hold. I know I can always highlight the segment to the FAF, but I was looking for something with fewer button pushes, like defaulting to never flying the HILPT.
 
To be fair, the architecture of the 430/530 is getting close to 30 years old when you consider development time (release in 1997?).
Somewhere around that time. Remember, Garmin offered to upgrade the pre-WAAS 400/500/430/530 to WAAS for $1,500 once WAAS was operational. Turns out the FAA tightened the WAAS timing requirements, so Garmin basically had to replace the entire electronics for $1,500. And, they made good on that.
 
Yes. That's the problem. It wants to fly the HILPT no matter what. On a T, almost all of the time they're going to clear you straight in. I never got a message "Fly Course Reversal," it just did it.

I'll try clearing the hold. I know I can always highlight the segment to the FAF, but I was looking for something with fewer button pushes, like defaulting to never flying the HILPT.

With a T, I'd say they're only going to clear you straight-in about HALF of the time, because the other half you're coming from the opposite side and would fly to one of the T fixes. If you do select one of them, the hold should NOT be showing up in your route.

Now, with an "I" configuration RNAV approach, you would fly the hold about half the time depending on direction, but you will likely get the hold showing up regardless of where you come from any more, and will have to remove it manually.
 
No, I get that part (it does blink "susp" right above the OBS key, after all). I think it has more to do with what @RussR said, how it automaticallly suspends, then you unsuspend, but how you have to do it at the right point.
For a hold, the "right point" is any time after turning outbound the last time you want to.
 
It's the latter. At the MAP it automatically goes into SUSP mode, and you are un-SUSPending it after you cross the MAP, so you can fly the missed approach. If you press it before you get to the MAP (most likely scenario is you're flying a vertically-guided approach where you actually start the missed at DA which is maybe 0.5 nm before the MAP), then you accidentally SUSPend it with the active waypoint as the MAP, which does not have the desired result of taking you on the missed approach. In fact, most commonly it will just plot a line straight ahead and there you go, straight ahead right into the mountain.

Problem is, on many RNAV approaches the missed approach does take you straight ahead, so you don't immediately notice the difference. But since the missed approach in this case is not active, it will not provide you with guidance to/around the hold, it will just take you straight out forever.
This is what I did on a recent training with a SP. Had to re configure how to get to the hold; basically had to build a hold from scratch on the GTN.

BTW - should it not be just "Go to Hold" or "End Approach"? "Suspend" and "UnSuspend" isn't as intuitive.
And isn't "UnSuspend" actually just "Pend"? :)
 
This is what I did on a recent training with a SP. Had to re configure how to get to the hold; basically had to build a hold from scratch on the GTN.

BTW - should it not be just "Go to Hold" or "End Approach"? "Suspend" and "UnSuspend" isn't as intuitive.
And isn't "UnSuspend" actually just "Pend"? :)

With a GTN, how did you get into this situation? The GTN waits until you get to the MAP, then gives you the "Remain Suspended" and "Activate Missed Approach" options, right? Which of course is pretty much the ideal answer to your BTW question anyway, isn't it?
 
This is what I did on a recent training with a SP. Had to re configure how to get to the hold; basically had to build a hold from scratch on the GTN.

BTW - should it not be just "Go to Hold" or "End Approach"? "Suspend" and "UnSuspend" isn't as intuitive.
And isn't "UnSuspend" actually just "Pend"? :)
Tha BTW is purely a training issue. Basic knowing how your avionics work.
 
My suggestion to change the language to “End the Approach” is a training issue?
 
To add to the confusion, if you are on a NoPT segment of the TAA for an RNAV approach with a HILPT (wow, that's a lot of acronyms), you may (will) have to delete the hold before crossing the IAF, else your 430 box will insist on flying around the hold for you. If you highlight the hold in the FPL pane and press the CLR key prior to the IAF, it will ask if you want to delete the hold. Then you can go about your NoPT merry way on the approach. This is the way it works for me at my home field for both RNAV (GPS) approaches. The box is apparently not smart enough to figure out I am on a NoPT course to the IAF. There are other ways to accomplish this on a 430, but this is the simplest, and it can be done in advance of reaching the IAF, when you start to get busy with setting up for the initial descent. I learned this the hard way during an IPC when our approaches were re-designed with HILPTs in lieu of the old T-structure.
 
The GNS/W series will require the HILPT when it is required by rule and offer the option when one may be cleared straight-in. The GNS/W series will not offer the hold if you join the procedure via a NoPT route or segment. Where most pilots get confused with joining a T style approach (without a TAA) at the center IF/IAF fix, where the hold may or may not be required by rule. An example, if you are at TAYSO and select the KLKR RNAV RWY 6 approach and join at CORON, the GNS/ will ask if you want the hold or not. The hold is required by rule by default, but in most instances, I would expect one to be cleared straight-in and not want to use the hold. If you were located at CHELE, but selected CORON as the point to join the approach, the hold would always be included in the route, because the hold is required by rule and the angle to the FAC is more than 90 degrees. If instead you were to join at one of the T fixes, NOKNE or MITVE, they include legs that are NoPT, so the hold is not included. But if you are directly over one of these fixes, they are 90 degrees to the FAC, but chose CORON to be the IAF where you join the approach, you will get asked if you want to do the hold or not. IOW, if you know the rule for when a HILPT is required, the GNS/W will either offer you a choice to include the hold, always include the hold, or never include the hold depending on the application of the rule. The rule is that if the HILPT is charted on the procedure, you must do the hold unless one of these 4 exceptions apply: 1) You are being vectored to final; 2) you are on a route or TAA segment that is charted as NoPT; 3) you are cleared Straight-In; or 4) timed approaches are being used. All the GNS/W series does is follow the rule and when the HILPT is optional, offer it to the pilot.

If you have selected the hold and later decide not to use it, you can either delete it from the route or activate the leg immediately after the hold. If you select a route that does not include the hold but want to fly the hold anyway, for example to lose altitude, you need to load and activate the approach by choosing the center IAF as the point of joining the approach and including the hold if it is optional. Once in the hold, you control whether or not the proceed inbound along the FAC to the FAA or not by using the OBS button. Pressing the OBS button will toggle SUSP on and off. If SUSP is annunciated when you approach the IF/IAF, you will stay in the hold. If SUSP is not annunciated, you will sequence inbound to the FAF. You can toggle SUSP on and off as many times as you want until just before you get to the IF/IAF fix as it only matters the state of the SUSP annunciation when you cross the fix.
 
My suggestion to change the language to “End the Approach” is a training issue?
When a standard term for a function or procedure has been in the lexicon for 25 years, I'd say not understanding it is a training issue.
 
…so I recently swapped out the 430w for the Avidyne 440. Gray beard architecture or not, its been intuitive so far and that’s a good thing.


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