GA Landing At Bravo Airport (TG vs. FS vs. FBO)

Sinistar

Sinistar

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Brad
Okay, so like all other newbies I want to try a (VFR) landing at our nearby Bravo (KMSP). I have been looking at times when it least busy (midnight to 2am is really quiet). I know which FBO I would go to and the fees that would be charged (a bit cheaper with minimal fuel). I am pretty sure which runway I would be given (for the FBO). I very confident getting on with FF right away to get things started. My CFI will be with me (he hasn't done it either). I will either call approach or the tower (by phone) beforehand to set it up....unless that isn't really needed?

But I have this question: I really want to do a full stop, taxi back and depart - can I do that?

Now, I don't mind paying fees this once to the ramp/FBO so its not about this one time charge. I want to learn what is like to land there, taxi (my biggest fear), and then depart again. This would be my first experience with CD as well. A trip to the FBO is the least of my concerns on a first flight like this.
 
If they don't have a landing fee, and ATC will cooperate, you should be able to do your landing and depart, with zero ramp fees.
 
As I understand it, there is a landing fee at MSP...does this then necessitate a stop at the FBO Ramp????
 
I once (before 9/11) had the tower controllers offer to let us do some landings at DCA. I wish I'd taken them up on the offer. MWAA doesn't charge a landing fee until you leave the movement area. Being based at IAD, I made more than a few landings there and even some late night stop and goes on the runway.
 
Call the TRACON or tower ahead of time and ask. I was thinking of doing this at ATL but they hit you with a hefty landing fee (from what I’m told) and they also don’t allow T&G’s—so double check before hand!
 
It never hurts to give them a call beforehand. That's what most people do around here when they try their wings at LAX. Tower usually advises them as to what times are least busy and they can be prepared for your arrival when they need to sequence your slow a$$ in between the fast heavies :D
 
You won't get 4-22 as a runway, it's rarely used and not for you
They only land on 35, and takeoff on 17, not the other way around.
Assuming that you'll get 30L or 12R, Whiskey is the taxiway you'll use, which is pretty easy, just a lot of intersections near 4-22.
Study the chart beforehand, have a big a** chart in the cockpit that's easy to read. Read the signage along the way and know what it all means. Read back ALL runway crossing clearance's.
W2 and W9 are called the feeders and are there for planes to takeoff if someone is on the end and they want to let you go before the other guy.
If you have a taxi light, use it on the ground and not the landing light, it's considered bad form to blind the other pilots coming at you on the taxiways, or turn it off until they're past you.
 
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Only time I ever landed ( twice at Boston ) and will land at class B is with angel flight. "0 " fees and you are treated well. Give it a try
 
blueskyMD said:
Only time I ever landed ( twice at Boston ) and will land at class B is with angel flight. "0 " fees and you are treated well. Give it a try
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Yeah, cuz if you aren’t Angel Flight or other charity, it’s around $3-400 in fees with or without fuel.
 
champ driver said:
I think you should ask for the full length and not exit at the first or second turnoff, so you can have the full experience.
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My sarcasm detector is in for repairs. :rolleyes:

For the OP, each Bravo airport is a little different obviously, so take this with a grain of salt. I did my primary training and now fly with a club based out of KSLC.

You can pretty much ask tower for anything you want, but what you get is what you get. Flying in at 2 am you probably could get whatever you wanted. You could certainly ask for two touch and gos then a full stop for example.

I once asked for a lap around the pattern because of poor planning on my part. I needed 0.1 more on the Hobbes to meet my XC time requirement.

One other tip is that tower will expect that you know local waypoints used for instructions. Here there are a number of prominent roads that are used. Follow Redwood Road northbound for example. If you are unfamiliar with the tower lingo tell them you are unfamiliar. I once heard a pilot getting a bit of a chewing out because he had no idea where Redwood Road was and ended up who knows where. Listening to LiveATC might help with that ... maybe.

Have fun and relax. It’s just like flying in to any other ordinary airport, except there’s a lot more pavement on the ground to deal with. Have that airport diagram handy. And don’t be afraid to ask for a progressive taxi. Sure beats missing a turn (or worse).
 
When the airport authority doesn't sell gas, the landing fees generally aren't waived. In this case, there are a couple of FBOs that sell the gas, so the landing fee is probably charged by the airport authority. I'd call the airport manager's office and ask if the fees are charged for touch & gos (or if they're even allowed).

I would recommend not doing this at night. Big airports become a sea of lights and it's incredibly easy to get disoriented. Take a look at flightaware.com at different times of the day and see if you can find a time that slower. Heck, as the airport manager's office when you call to ask about the landing fees. I'd guess you can find a time right around sunup or right around 11AM that aren't super busy. There may be an afternoon lull around 3:30-4pm too.
 
It's no big deal. Worst case you'll get delay vectors but that ain't no thang. I don't think MSP is any busier than the Class B airports I've flown in to.

If landing fees aren't crazy, I say go for it.
 
Have landed at several class Bs,never a problem. Never did a land taxi back.
 
Just thinking about how my dad learned to fly at PHX. Of course that was back before Class B airspace existed.....

I’m thinking HNL might be the only Class B left that still has flight schools located on the field. Are there any others?
 
There's only one FBO at MSP and it's Signature, call them for landing fees and fuel costs, not MAC.
 
Let us know how it goes. The A/FD for MSP still indicates you must go to the FBO unless you have the secret decoder ring; shame, as I’d like to go in some slow night too. Approach in my experience is usually easy to work with for FF, as you know.

Training flights prohibited. General aviation flights must
terminate at the FBO or US Customs unless approved by Airport Manager.
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It is in the MSP A/FD remarks that all GA flights must terminate at the FBO and training flights are prohibited. I assume to ensure they get their fees. I have only landed there once, but had planned the FBO stop to pick up a passenger. I came in and departed IFR, but wasn’t too big of a deal. Ground seemed to keep a special eye on me taxiing from 35 to the FBO, warning me of traffic and upcoming turns.
 
jwyatt said:
Let us know how it goes. The A/FD for MSP still indicates you must go to the FBO unless you have the secret decoder ring; shame, as I’d like to go in some slow night too. Approach in my experience is usually easy to work with for FF, as you know.
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Beat me by seconds, haha!
 
Jesse and I did KMSP late at night in my Cherokee back in I think 2008 (before he moved to Lincoln and became a super mega boss dude).

We did a touch and go. It was simple and the tower had no problem giving it to us. I do remember the lights being crazy and a bit disorienting so I’d imagine taxiing around there at night would be a bit tough.

No landing fee back then. Short flight from KMIC over.

I’m 99% sure we landed on 30R
 
Fearless Tower said:
Just thinking about how my dad learned to fly at PHX. Of course that was back before Class B airspace existed.....

I’m thinking HNL might be the only Class B left that still has flight schools located on the field. Are there any others?
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KSLC has Cornerstone flying out of there. That’s where I learned. And the club I’m in flies out of there also. It’s relatively GA friendly maybe compared to other places. They use runway 17/35 primarily for GA, charters, the ANG and the occasional commercial during heavier times. Saw the big black Under Armor jet parked on the ramp once.
 
Big "Duhhh" moment on my part, never even thought to look at the A/FD.

If I understand right, Signature will charge a $25 infrastructure fee??? The handling fee (not listed) is waived with 8gal of fuel (at $8/gal) so we're closing in on $100. I still don't see the airport landing fee but I thought I saw somewhere else it was $77 so still checking. Will call the FBO to figure it out.

Now if I have to go to the FBO then I might as well go during daylight as the airport probably wants to keep Signature busy. I would skip peak times of course.

Maybe I'll have to charge my CFI to ride with me :)
 
Fearless Tower said:
Just thinking about how my dad learned to fly at PHX. Of course that was back before Class B airspace existed.....

I’m thinking HNL might be the only Class B left that still has flight schools located on the field. Are there any others?
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KMCO (Orlando International) has or had one recently. They list both Flight Safety & Simcom but those are simulation training. There was a 0 to hero one not to long ago, it may be gone now. They used the western most runway and did not fly during the push times.
 
A couple years old but Martin went into MSP in his Bonanza.

He has several videos of landing at bravo's. I like his channel.
 
The coolest experience I had at a Bravo was late at night at KMCI. I was getting a few landings in in a 172. I departed 19R and was immediately cleared to land runway 9, which basically starts right at the departure end of 19R. I think the controller wanted to get in on the fun since it was a slow night.
 
I recall flying into MIA in my Lance at a time when the main taxiway to Signature was closed for construction. The ground controller said he'd give me progressive taxi instructions, and then after a few turns forgot about me. I got the windshield tour of airside that day!
 
Ken Ibold said:
Wait ... your CFI has never landed at a Class B airport? Wow.
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Okay I think I should speak up for my CFI here :incazzato:

I am curious how many new CFI's have actually landed at a Bravo. Let's define new as someone who became a CFI in the last 2 years. Clearly, landing at a Bravo isn't cheap and post 9/11 it seems a lot has changed, especially these airports their airspace. So I could see newer CFI's not having done this. Also my CFI does a lot of teaching outside the Bravo at uncontrolled airports. He trained at 2 Delta's that are under the Bravo so he's not afraid of ATC, etc. Probably just not practical for him.

That's why I kidded about charging him for the hour :) But he is all-in to help me do this!!! And he's about 200hrs away from flying for a living so maybe its good timing. Clearly, he's not hiding from it. Also his own plane doesn't have a xpdr so he'll need to do this in someone else's plane.

Aside over.
 
MSP Bravo Landing Prices (via phone call to Signature):

$73.45 : MAC Landing Fee (they asked aircraft type, in this case Cessna 182)
$49.00 : FBO Handling Fee (waived with minimum fuel purchase of 7 gallons)
$5.00 : FBO Infrastructure Fee
$8.08 : FBO 100LL Price per gallon

...so it looks like a trip into MSP would cost a minimum of $127.45 or $135.01 if you went the minimum fuel route. Might as well get 7 gallons of fuel for an extra $8.

The good news is no TSA security. However anyone you pick up or meet will need to get buzzed through the gate.

And....they have the Minnesota Airports Passport Stamp...so it will be the most expensive stamp of them all :)

I'm definitely willing to do it once. Definitely would not be something to do often as that's a lot of 100LL.

I will be traveling for work and vacation soon so my goal is try this in late September or afterwards.

With all the costs, I am definitely changing my tune about going in at zero-dark-thirty. Might as well go during the day and be able to see it all. I will call the Tower to get their recommendation on good days/times during daylight (which is running out fast now up here).

Now I wonder what the cheapest Bravo Airport to full stop to a FBO price is?
And other than Bravo airports with training, will any other Bravo airports allow touch and go's or full stops with a taxi back?
 
Sinistar said:
Okay I think I should speak up for my CFI here :incazzato:

I am curious how many new CFI's have actually landed at a Bravo. Let's define new as someone who became a CFI in the last 2 years. Clearly, landing at a Bravo isn't cheap and post 9/11 it seems a lot has changed, especially these airports their airspace. So I could see newer CFI's not having done this. Also my CFI does a lot of teaching outside the Bravo at uncontrolled airports. He trained at 2 Delta's that are under the Bravo so he's not afraid of ATC, etc. Probably just not practical for him.

That's why I kidded about charging him for the hour :) But he is all-in to help me do this!!! And he's about 200hrs away from flying for a living so maybe its good timing. Clearly, he's not hiding from it. Also his own plane doesn't have a xpdr so he'll need to do this in someone else's plane.

Aside over.
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I'm not ragging on your CFI specifically, just alluding to the fact that aviation is somewhat unique in that instruction is typically done by the least experienced. This is a classic illustration of how flight instruction does not give a pilot "1000 hours" of experience, but rather 1 hour a thousand times.
 
I've seen some YouTube videos with GA planes landing at SFO. I believe the landing fee there is $200. If you ever visit HNL there's plenty of GA places to fly on the south ramp. Do you have any Class C airports close by? Personally I feel it's the same as a Class B airport. :)
 
I wish I could amend this entire thread with "recently".

Us newbie pilots learn and hear of so many things. Some by our CFI, other pilots, you tube, etc. One of the classic "bucket list" items for a newer pilot is to actually land at a Bravo airport (yep, count me in that crowd). Some will say: 'Why bother, its a waste of time, money, complex airspace, etc." However I bet if you surveyed newbie pilots and their interest in landing at a Bravo, it would be relatively high. Partly to do it, partly to learn from it.

So a lot of us are hearing "I landed at XXX bravo...". But it seems like many of those stories are from a different time (lets just say pre 9/11 and pre-exorbitant fees). And now the A/FD's are indicating no training flights or that flights need to end at FBO so full stop with taxi backs and even touch and go's seem to be off the table (excepting emergencies of course). So maybe this classic aviation bucket list item of landing at a Bravo just isn't really all the practical as it used to be. And maybe less and less of newer CFI's will even do this given the costs, best time of day, etc.

I'm going to do it, just a bummer its not quite as accessible as it was before.
 
LoneAspen said:
Has anybody here landed a GA plane at Denver? Just curious.
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It really depends on your definition of GA.
I have landed corporate jets there many times, but that was 91k or 135. Some may, and some may not consider that GA.
 
I went to Washington Dulles, as a PP with about 180ish hours, in 2005. in a Cessna 152. In the middle of the day.
So not "recently", but it was post-9/11, and I had to do a bunch of ADIZ-procedure research beforehand.

IIRC they charged me $35 to park overnight (which I did), if I bought fuel (which I did). Seemed like a screamin' deal at the time.
Not to mention the craziest and most thrilling experience of my aviation career at the time, and I'd say it still holds that title!

Aside from a bit of a "dance" to squeeze me in between a Canada jet and a 747, the controllers treated me just like anyone else. They put me on the same runway as everyone else.
From reading others' tales, I'd agree that each Bravo is different, with its own "culture"...

If it's going to be a hundred bucks or two, I'd say don't just to a touch-and-go, find some excuse to park the plane and get the full FBO experience.
For me, parking my 152 next to all the jets, walking in, having the desk person ask me for my name and "the name of the other pilot", and getting to say, "No, it's just me! I'm the little 152", and seeing the stunned look on her face, was priceless.
Like splurging for a Broadway show. Worth doing once.

Remember that the EXITS from the runway are a lot farther spaced than at your typical GA airport, so if you can land near one, so you can exit promptly, it'll make Tower (and the monstrous 747 right behind you) much happier than if you... uhhh... don't.
Also remember all that stuff about wake turbulence!
 
Sinistar said:
I wish I could amend this entire thread with "recently".

Us newbie pilots learn and hear of so many things. Some by our CFI, other pilots, you tube, etc. One of the classic "bucket list" items for a newer pilot is to actually land at a Bravo airport (yep, count me in that crowd). Some will say: 'Why bother, its a waste of time, money, complex airspace, etc." However I bet if you surveyed newbie pilots and their interest in landing at a Bravo, it would be relatively high. Partly to do it, partly to learn from it.

So a lot of us are hearing "I landed at XXX bravo...". But it seems like many of those stories are from a different time (lets just say pre 9/11 and pre-exorbitant fees). And now the A/FD's are indicating no training flights or that flights need to end at FBO so full stop with taxi backs and even touch and go's seem to be off the table (excepting emergencies of course). So maybe this classic aviation bucket list item of landing at a Bravo just isn't really all the practical as it used to be. And maybe less and less of newer CFI's will even do this given the costs, best time of day, etc.

I'm going to do it, just a bummer its not quite as accessible as it was before.
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I kind of agree with that though. Having a 172 doing pattern work at a Bravo really doesn't make sense. If you want to check Bravos off for a bucket list or whatever, just fly into them when you're going somewhere if it's easy and financially works for you. For example, when I go to Vegas, I always fly into McCarran. Yeah, it's more money, but it's easy and they take care of me. I took co workers on a Grand Canyon tour with no issues or hassles, all VFR. Easy. Going out of a different airport wouldn't have been as easy.

Same for anywhere else I fly. If the local Bravo makes sense logistically, then that's where I go. If I get delay vectors I get delay vectors, but I always file IFR and I rarely get delays. Even when I do, it's not just because I'm in a Cirrus. Last time I went to Vegas they were delaying everybody. It was kind of a CF.
 
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