GA Crash at PDK

Oof. That looked... not good. I'm not optimistic about their condition based on that impact.
 
Impossible turn? Pretty low to try the turn back. Will wait to hear what caused the emergency from the preliminary NTSB report.
 
Luckily they survived the crash.hopefully they will recover quickly.
 
Looks like a centennial aviation plane. One report said a child and adult. It was a training flight, most likely with a minor. Pilot side window was blown out. Prayers for a quick recovery.
 
eman1200 said:
except they actually made the turn.
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The airplane disagrees. Not gonna argue the decision making. It may have been the best option. Making it anyplace on the airport is often the best place
 
Airports usually have the most suitable equipment, and on the field.

Edited to add:

If there is no on airport equipment, their call direct to the nearest station brings the equipment to a known location, not to a random city street. And they know it is an aircraft. All this adds to the chance of survival.















;
 
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If you watch the video closely, you can see a puff (trail) of dark smoke briefly right before the aircraft begins the turn.

Pilot did a good, maybe not perfect, job.

PDK is one of those places where you can get "caught between" where landing straight ahead isn't an option AND there are few/no off-airport options.
 
Slightly off topic, but when I flew out of there, back in the '70s, we called it Peachtree-Dekalb. When did it change to Dekalb-Peachtree?
 
I am completely aware of what it is like to be the guy in the seat when things go south (not in an aircraft yet (knock on wood), but in other endeavors) so I know you do the best with what you've got with the time you've got. So this is not at all meant as a "What a moron, why didn't they do..." post. The pilot did get it back, the occupants seem to have survived.

With that said, I'm wondering (from the comfort of my living room couch) if perhaps if they had put down flaps if they would have been more successful. Unless they retracted them after, er, touchdown, it seems the didn't lower them, and it seems they were starting to be able to correct the wing low issue at the end. So maybe that extra lift there at the end would have changed the story.

Again, idle speculation with the understanding that pilot was there and not me.

* film of the resting aircraft, with a close up on the right side wing shows aileron deflected, but not flaps. This is later in the film time.
 
One of the busiest airports I've flown out of, and no good options if the mill quits.
 
guest user has it right.

From the comfort of my home, the use of flaps at the end game of engine out works.
I did at least one engine out practice every year, starting in 1969.
Johnson bar Cessna faps were instant on or off, and our instructor stressed final touchdown control with them. The club had annual check rides, which lowered our insurance rates.

After the stall horn starts, 20 degrees of flaps moved touchdown about 100 feet further down the runway.

Those who are not aware should try it, and add it to the tools in an emergency.

This pilot may have known, but in the stress of the moment, did not think of it, and no criticism from me, but for the rest of us, a learning moment that may make all the difference some day.
 
How horrifying for the father to witness his child go through that with no idea on their well being.
 
Racerx said:
How horrifying for the father to witness his child go through that with no idea on their well being.
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I could not imagine going through that. I've witnessed my son hitting a wall at 140+ mph in a race car and that first 20 seconds of silence on the radio was heartbreaking. However, the safety systems/carbon monocoque/fitted recumbent seat made it a non issue other than a sprained ankle (and comatose wallet). That plane nosing in definitely was much more scary and looked most likely fatal. Fortunately both survived the initial trauma; hopefully they both make a full recovery.
 
All things considering, with how low they were (maybe 300'??) its amazing they didn't end up completely spinning it in. That is a very tight turn for a warrior.
 
Looks like the climb might have shallowed (engine problem) and they tried to turn back and were still turning when they ran out of altitude. Would have been better to find a spot other than the runway. There's lots of open grass there.
 
from the cheap seats I am going with a very nice job by the pilot/instructor.

At 1st I was wondering why they didn't level the wings and try to pull up. But on closer inspection I think it was to avoid hitting the building.

When I practice this maneuver I am saying out loud "I am not going to Stall" and am hyper alert for the stall warning or any other indication of stall.
I don't know the area or what was ahead, but if straight ahead wasn't a very good option I am pretty sure I would have attempted the same and I certainly wouldn't claim I could have done better.
Flaps might of helped but it happened very fast. 7 seconds from the start of the turn to impact, so maybe 12 seconds from an indication of an issue. I would have been much more focused on not stalling and flying the airplane I don't think I would have thought to use flaps.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
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JOhnH said:
Slightly off topic, but when I flew out of there, back in the '70s, we called it Peachtree-Dekalb. When did it change to Dekalb-Peachtree?
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Locals still call it Peachtree-Dekalb, but the real name is Dekalb-Peachtree.
 
I've seen the same video everyone else has seen and my opinion is no better than anyone elses. Departing to the south, as Steingar mentioned, there are no reasonable options for an off-airport landing.

My SWAG is a possible engine-failure event at roughly 400 feet AGL while departing RWY 21R. A puff of smoke may be visible about 13 seconds after rotation. At about 16 seconds, the pilot reacted. Feel free to ignore my conjecture.

[Update: ADSBExchange shows his altitude at 75 AGL. I would have expected more than that, but my previously mentioned estimate of 400 AGL is wrong. Even with a 700fpm climb rate, he would have still only been around 200 feet. At this point I suspect he was still generating partial power.]

The pilot initiated a turnback, to the left. Due to the low altitude, I doubt the pilot could have completed 240° worth of required turns (to make it back to a runway) in the best circumstances. As it was, he appears to have turned roughly 200 degrees before contacting the surface without attaining a wings level attitude, just short of RWY 21L. The turn appeared to be adequately steep to minimize turn radius and time in turn. But that is pure speculation based on the available video and my familiarity with the area. There is a lot of flat area around the runway, albeit covered with signs, taxiways, and crossing runways. An earlier rollout to level, short of the runway, MAY have been a better option. In any case, the pilot should be commended for quick action and maintaining control "all the way to crash" as Hoover said. These things all too frequently end with an accelerated stall and incipient spin followed by a smoking hole. Based on the circumstances I think the pilot did a great job.
 
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What is the best way to train/prepare for (what I'm assuming to be) an engine failure below 500' AGL on takeoff? Legitimate question.
 
2-Bit Speed said:
What is the best way to train/prepare for (what I'm assuming to be) an engine failure below 500' AGL on takeoff? Legitimate question.
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It is a HUGE model and involves a LOT of ADM. It's not just a kinetic exercise. At 500 feet, in almost all cases, the best choice is to land in a narrow pie slice in front of you. But if downtown Atlanta is the only thing ahead, there may not be any good choices. Fly it all the way into the crash. And don't attempt a turnback without proper training and continued practice.
 
2-Bit Speed said:
What is the best way to train/prepare for (what I'm assuming to be) an engine failure below 500' AGL on takeoff? Legitimate question.
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Depends on what's in front of you. Most days it'll be straight ahead and land in whatever it is. Where I still fly out of I'll do there turn. There are no good options, but if I do the turn at least I'll not be landing in a neighborhood full of kids.
 
2-Bit Speed said:
What is the best way to train/prepare for (what I'm assuming to be) an engine failure below 500' AGL on takeoff? Legitimate question.
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Before every take off either voice out loud or mentally do a take off briefing on what you will do in case of engine failure (below 500 feet AGL and above 500 feet AGL) and where to put the plane down.

And first thing to do is react, nose down, A/S, stick to the departure briefing engine out that you just briefed. There may be changes in that plan as it happens, and be ready for that.
 
Crap, it was N103AV, I know that airplane. :(

I hope it wasn’t as simple as forgetting to switch tanks and running one dry.
 
Kyle N said:
All things considering, with how low they were (maybe 300'??) its amazing they didn't end up completely spinning it in. That is a very tight turn for a Archer.
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FTFY. Not as though it really changes anything, however.
 
Zeldman said:
Before every take off either voice out loud or mentally do a take off briefing on what you will do in case of engine failure (below 500 feet AGL and above 500 feet AGL) and where to put the plane down.

And first thing to do is react, nose down, A/S, stick to the departure briefing engine out that you just briefed. There may be changes in that plan as it happens, and be ready for that.
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Also add to your briefing - which direction will you turn? Right or left.

And with all due respect, I think the arbitrary selection of 500 feet carries a lot of risk.
 
I just picked 500' for the purposes of discussion because I'm confident there isn't enough altitude to make "The Impossible Turn". I realize that the actual altitude will be important and will change based in part on the aircraft being flown.
 
write-stuff said:
Also add to your briefing - which direction will you turn? Right or left.

And with all due respect, I think the arbitrary selection of 500 feet carries a lot of risk.
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For me, altitude really doesn't matter unless I can make the vacant lot down the street a bit. I have parallel runways so I only have to to a 180. But unless I can land the farm off the departure end I'm doing the turn. I'm not landing among cars, houses and kids.
 
Look online for videos. A lot depends on the angle of climb of the aircraft and glide angle. Some aircraft cannot get back to the runway. You need to work this out at altitude.

Set up a level slow flight at take off configuration at say 3000 feet. Apply full power, set up a normal take off climb then at 3,500 (as a starting point) pull the power to idle, wait 5 seconds (shock factor), get the nose down and turn. You need to do a 90+270 turn to get back to the runway. See where you are when you go wings level. If below 3,000 feet, you did not make it. The second part is harder (higher risk) to determine if you turn around, if you can actually make the runway.

And you need to AGRESSIVELY get the nose down.
 
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