G5 installtion progress [[Previously: Opinions on my panel]]

arkvet said:
Great looking panel! I am in the process of having the 2nd G5 installed in my PA32-301. I have a Century 41 AP that relies on the vacuum AI so I had to retain the original AI for that purpose. I moved it to the T/C hole and installed the G5 AI in the primary AI hole. Since that install the G5 HSI became certified... I was planning to drag my feet on that addition but recently my NSD-360 HSI began giving me some issues so it was time to make the move.

As this 2nd G5 is being added to my plane it has really made me start thinking about partial panel / alternator failure / vacuum failure / etc. A little over a year ago I was flying a plane where a vacuum failure was a pretty significant event. Standard 6 pack. No electric or backup AI (other than my Ipad and Foreflight) which I really don't trust. Since that time my panel has slowly evolved to be more dependent on the electrical system. I'm studying hard to understand the exact method(s) of failure and have yet to come to any firm conclusions. I thought this thread might be a good place to chime in on that topic.

Here's my panel:

Dual G5's (HSI has GMU-11 and GAD29b)
vacuum AI in T/C hole - to drive AP and even provide a backup AI in the event of a complete electrical failure.
Nav/Com #1 - Avidyne IFD 550- has true SV
Nav/Com #2 - KX155 w/out glideslope / has it's own CDI.
JPI 830
GMA 340
Avidyne remote ADSB transponder (in and out)

So here are the two primary modes of failure:

1- vacuum- almost a non-event as it does kill my autopilot, but I honestly haven't been relying on the vacuum AI for the primary scan anyway. I'll just have to hand fly and that should be pretty simple given my panel.

2- electrical failure - obviously an "event"! Let's look for the weak link shall we. One thing I love about the G5's is their huge independent battery. That's great. Should easily have a solid AI for the remainder of the flight. But wait... How about the HSI??? It's got power but will it work? Well, this where my head scratching starts. Assuming main-ship battery has depleted the GMU-11 magnetometer and the GAD29b will fail. Now my HSI is gone. Will it show track? Not if the IFD550, GMU-11, and GAD29B are all dead. So I'll essentially be left with an AI (OK 3 if you count the dual G5's and the vacuum AI) but zero NAV info. In this case declare an emergency and get vectored to the nearest airport.

I think the next step I need to take is to find out the power (amp) draw for each piece of equipment. Figure out which pieces are essential to get down and land and have a known time frame for that to happen. One thing I love about the JPI 830 is that I set a low voltage alarm, so I am instantly notified of an alternator failure.

I don't mean to hijack the thread. I just think as we transition more and more to electric panels it's super important to know the results of that failure and the steps to take to turn an emergency into a non-event. Power management will be critical with the last resort being what to do if/when it's all gone.
Click to expand...
Knowing the GTX 335 was going in, I went thru the power consumption few months ago. Just swapping out the GE 4509 landing light for LED saved almost 10 amps. Position lights went LED, the little position light, then changed the Grimes rotary tail beacon to the Whelen LED. Overall, almost 20 amps.
 
Last edited:
murphey said:
Knowing the GTX 335 was going in, I went thru the power consumption few months ago. Just swaping out the GE 4509 landing light for LED saved almost 10 amps. Position lights went LED, the little position light, then changed the Grimes rotary tail beacon to the Whelen LED. Overall, almost 20 amps.
Click to expand...
nice work! did you have to do a new W&B to account for offloading those 20 amps? :)
 
WannFly said:
It’s connected to master. Most PFD I have seen is connected to master, like G1000. I may have the same issue as yours, went to th shop yesterday, the AP won’t follow the heading
bug on the ground. It goes on a full right deflection.... avionics guy said he will look into it. Ur suspicions may be correct, something wrong with the wiring instructions from Garmin may be.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
When you say Master are you referring to the Red Master switch? The Red Master is the battery bus. My shop responded with "The STC installation manual states that the G5 system will be on the battery bus (listed as essential or main buss) not the Avionics bus". My airplane goes back to the shop on 2/28 to address the G5 failure and hopefully fix my HDG bug issue.
 
My G5's are wired to main battery bus (not through the avionics master). They do have their own independent switch on the panel, however. As Baron mentioned this is per the STC, and not simply an optional way to install.

I never turn the G5's off at start-up / shut down like I do the avionics master. The battery backup will keep the G5's powered up for 45 seconds after switching them off which makes it a pain to turn them off prior to shut down, unless it's done well in advance.
 
Baron62 said:
When you say Master are you referring to the Red Master switch? The Red Master is the battery bus. My shop responded with "The STC installation manual states that the G5 system will be on the battery bus (listed as essential or main buss) not the Avionics bus". My airplane goes back to the shop on 2/28 to address the G5 failure and hopefully fix my HDG bug issue.
Click to expand...

Yes the red master Not the avionics bus


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Looks awesome! I’ve got Avidyne in my radio stack but left of that my panel is nearly identical in every way. The jpi 830 is perfect in that spot. Wouldn’t fly without it.

Enjoy :)

My plane should be finished with the 2nd G5 anytime. I’ll post a pic when I get it back.
 
arkvet said:
Looks awesome! I’ve got Avidyne in my radio stack but left of that my panel is nearly identical in every way. The jpi 830 is perfect in that spot. Wouldn’t fly without it.

Enjoy :)

My plane should be finished with the 2nd G5 anytime. I’ll post a pic when I get it back.
Click to expand...

Yah I took the opportunity of moving it there, rt in the middle of all the scan. It got relocated from the bottom left on the far end. Can’t wait to fly tomorrow. Took all I had to say no I won’t fly today...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
That’s nice how your G5’s are recessed like that. My G5 HSI isn’t flush mounted so it sticks out a bit but it should look great when we add the G5 AI
 
CC268 said:
That’s nice how your G5’s are recessed like that. My G5 HSI isn’t flush mounted so it sticks out a bit but it should look great when we add the G5 AI
Click to expand...
its not recessed or flush mounted, looks that way due to the plastic overlay
 
After all avionics work..

Day 1 - XW component more than my personal minimums with a pax
Day 2 - 14 kts just in XW component
Day 3 (Today) - breaking action on the runway 1/5

someone doesn't want me to fly :mad::mad:
 
Baron62 said:
Please let me know what you find on the Heading bug issue. I have a feeling the Century AP "DG Select" ground jumper needs to be removed because we went from DG to HSI.

I have no idea why mine is connected to the Battery bus and not the Avionics Master. I will be asking the shop tomorrow because I now have a bigger problem. My G5 HSI display does not come on at all with Battery bus power or even by pushing the unit power button. Hope they have a spare unit in stock.:(:(:(:(:(:(:mad::mad::(:(:(:eek::eek::eek::eek:
Click to expand...

Push and hold for 10 seconds and it will come on. Known issue, Garmin working on fix.
 
Since You have been talking a lot about G5's. Do you know anyone who has gotten a G5 just as an HSI, not as the package AI and HSI?
 
drotto said:
Since You have been talking a lot about G5's. Do you know anyone who has gotten a G5 just as an HSI, not as the package AI and HSI?
Click to expand...
yes, a Bo in my avionics shop is getting only the HSI and @CC268 just got it too
 
I just got my Saratoga this am with the 2nd G5 (HSI) installed. Coming back from the shop was my first time to ever fly with gpss. I had a King HSI before the G5 so an HSI isn't new to me, but the gpss... yes, and I liked it.

I'm super excited. Pics to come.
 
arkvet said:
I just got my Saratoga this am with the 2nd G5 (HSI) installed. Coming back from the shop was my first time to ever fly with gpss. I had a King HSI before the G5 so an HSI isn't new to me, but the gpss... yes, and I liked it.

I'm super excited. Pics to come.
Click to expand...
good for you man... I am yet to fly :( WX sucked over the weekend .. hopefully tomorrow
 
arkvet said:
I just got my Saratoga this am with the 2nd G5 (HSI) installed. Coming back from the shop was my first time to ever fly with gpss. I had a King HSI before the G5 so an HSI isn't new to me, but the gpss... yes, and I liked it.

I'm super excited. Pics to come.
Click to expand...
GPSS is so nice. The airplane follows the flight plan perfectly including correcting for wind. No more constantly adjusting your heading to stay on course. Love it!
 
arkvet said:
I just got my Saratoga this am with the 2nd G5 (HSI) installed. Coming back from the shop was my first time to ever fly with gpss. I had a King HSI before the G5 so an HSI isn't new to me, but the gpss... yes, and I liked it.
Click to expand...
Baron62 said:
GPSS is so nice. The airplane follows the flight plan perfectly including correcting for wind. No more constantly adjusting your heading to stay on course. Love it!
Click to expand...

I did a long IFR cross country with @Lance F in his Mooney last year and it has an S-Tec 50 autopilot. First plane I have ever flown with an autopilot and GPSS. I could get used to that real fast. Well, as a matter of fact I did get used to it fast. He had to make me hand fly hand fly because I started trying to use it too much and kind of defeating the purpose. lol.

I think he may have gotten a G5 AI since then.
 
Baron62 said:
GPSS is so nice. The airplane follows the flight plan perfectly including correcting for wind. No more constantly adjusting your heading to stay on course. Love it!
Click to expand...

U know my first introduction to AP was GFC700 and that’s all I knew, in my current Century 2000 my initial thought was the AP is broke and junk because it will go off course and not correct for wind correction, or if I am off course and push the nav, it won’t go and capture the magenta line, instead will start doing S turns to try and capture it. Later I found out most AP without GPSS will do that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
WannFly said:
well luckily for me, my shop is charging a flat rate for the G5 install, so..as long as they can put things back in working condition... am cool :D:D
Click to expand...
I've had them order and will have the avionics shop install two G5's in my 1976 T210. What was your shops flat rate charge , for comparison. They gave me a wide range of $3 -4,000.
 
Dr Doug said:
I've had them order and will have the avionics shop install two G5's in my 1976 T210. What was your shops flat rate charge , for comparison. They gave me a wide range of $3 -4,000.
Click to expand...

$2600


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
WannFly said:
U know my first introduction to AP was GFC700 and that’s all I knew, in my current Century 2000 my initial thought was the AP is broke and junk because it will go off course and not correct for wind correction, or if I am off course and push the nav, it won’t go and capture the magenta line, instead will start doing S turns to try and capture it. Later I found out most AP without GPSS will do that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
The Century 2000 is fairly capable with just the heading bug and Nav/LOC/GS input. Sure GPSS and a little throttle and config work lets it fly an approach plus missed. Me? I usually just ask: 'what's it doing now?' with a previous generation Century AP.
 
Clark1961 said:
The Century 2000 is fairly capable with just the heading bug and Nav/LOC/GS input. Sure GPSS and a little throttle and config work lets it fly an approach plus missed. Me? I usually just ask: 'what's it doing now?' with a previous generation Century AP.
Click to expand...
I have an Appr button on the AP, no idea what it does, but I will explore it when I start IR. as per the documentation, it is supposed to fly toe approach to minimums (do I trust the AP to fly me down to minimums? that's a diff story) and they recommend not using GPSS (century sells a GPSS module that costs a Kidney) while flying approach - why is beyond my comprehension.
 
WannFly said:
I have an Appr button on the AP, no idea what it does, but I will explore it when I start IR. as per the documentation, it is supposed to fly toe approach to minimums (do I trust the AP to fly me down to minimums? that's a diff story) and they recommend not using GPSS (century sells a GPSS module that costs a Kidney) while flying approach - why is beyond my comprehension.
Click to expand...
Usually Approach mode makes the unit increase sensitivity in tracking. If you're flying a non-GPS non-overlay approach and want to use GPSS you still need to track the raw data for the approach somewhere(LOC or VOR on a CDI or your normal ADF receiver) to be legal. And often GPSS won't allow it to couple to the glideslope/LPV vertical path as that's one thing Approach mode usually enables.
 
WannFly said:
I have an Appr button on the AP, no idea what it does, but I will explore it when I start IR. as per the documentation, it is supposed to fly toe approach to minimums (do I trust the AP to fly me down to minimums? that's a diff story) and they recommend not using GPSS (century sells a GPSS module that costs a Kidney) while flying approach - why is beyond my comprehension.
Click to expand...
The Appr button is the button to push when it is Appropriate.

There are some rules on what type of navigation guidance can be used on various segments of an instrument approach. Obviously GPSS is appropriate for RNAV (GPS) approaches. On approaches which use radio guidance then the Nav or ADF radio must be used on the final segment of the approach. It's all pretty easy once you've been through it a few times and get the autopilot modes sorted out. Just don't fergit to switch from LOC to HDG on the missed if'n ya want the GPSS to work on that segment. Or you can just ask why it wants to keep flying runway heading...
 
FINALLYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

test flight done. GPSS is freaking awesomeeeeeeeeee, she is back in her home drone (will leave soon to A&P though :()
didn't a chance to test the failure modes, may be tomorrow.

question for people flying with ancient AP. this is the first time I noticed that when flying on Heading Mode on the AP, I set a heading and the actual heading G5 shows is 2-3 degrees off, it seems like its not correcting for WCA. with the old gyro its impossible to notice such deviations. thoughts?
 
WannFly said:
FINALLYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY

test flight done. GPSS is freaking awesomeeeeeeeeee, she is back in her home drone (will leave soon to A&P though :()
didn't a chance to test the failure modes, may be tomorrow.

question for people flying with ancient AP. this is the first time I noticed that when flying on Heading Mode on the AP, I set a heading and the actual heading G5 shows is 2-3 degrees off, it seems like its not correcting for WCA. with the old gyro its impossible to notice such deviations. thoughts?
Click to expand...
Correct, when in heading mode the autopilot will fly the requested heading. Once GPSS is activated then the WCA will be determined and applied.

What’s really cool is when ya set heading but fail to activate GPSS but don’t notice for half a state because winds are negligible...
 
Clark1961 said:
Correct, when in heading mode the autopilot will fly the requested heading. Once GPSS is activated then the WCA will be determined and applied.
Click to expand...
cool, thanks.

I am so glad I could fly today after 6+ weeks, it felt natural and felt like am glad I am not on the ground and no I didn't bounce 3 times on my landing either :) ... weird!!
 
WannFly said:
cool, thanks.

I am so glad I could fly today after 6+ weeks, it felt natural and felt like am glad I am not on the ground and no I didn't bounce 3 times on my landing either :) ... weird!!
Click to expand...
If ya wanted to bounce landings ya shoulda bought a Cezzna.
 
When the G5 HSI is in HDG mode and the AP is HDG mode the aircraft flys the the heading. HDG mode does not correct for wind. In GPSS mode the aircraft will fly on the GPS plan and effectively correct for winds.
 
Baron62 said:
When the G5 HSI is in HDG mode and the AP is HDG mode the aircraft flys the the heading. HDG mode does not correct for wind. In GPSS mode the aircraft will fly on the GPS plan and effectively correct for winds.
Click to expand...
With the ancient autopilots the AP remains in heading mode and the heading is set automagically for GPSS.

Conversely, in Nav or Loc modes the heading must be set and the autopilot ‘looks at’ course deviation error and heading error. A pilot can bias the heading to help the autopilot arrive at the WCA. At least that’s how the ancient Century AP work. Century claims the AP will find the WCA on its own and I bet some well harmonized systems will do it. Others not so much.

Dunno about the STEC set ups.

This was mostly posted to help wannfly understand his system a little better. Of course he will learn it in detail as part of IFR training.
 
Ravioli said:
I think some review of track vs heading will be useful. Where's @denverpilot?
Click to expand...

Clark1961 said:
He went to Boulder today. Expect him to be disoriented for a spell.
Click to expand...

Still wondering how Apple found every single techie with a nose ring to staff their store up there. Was pretty impressive, really. I think the one dude without a nose ring and a pile of other conspicuous piercings, felt out of place. I didn’t ask him, though.

The one dude who had black leather clogs and no socks and high water pants, to go with his, along with his corporate mandated Apple logo t-shirt in medium blue, was a fashion disaster, but I’m a different kind of fashion disaster, so no reason to judge. He seemed to be some kind of mega-Genius, since he was giving orders to people with an FRS radio. Looked very official.

Anyway...

All I was going to say about the AP thing is that no AP in heading mode does anything with WCA. It flies a heading you chose.

If you want three more degrees for WCA, I’m heading mode, you turn three more degrees with the AP off, and then turn it back on. :)
 
denverpilot said:
Anyway...

All I was going to say about the AP thing is that no AP in heading mode does anything with WCA. It flies a heading you chose.

If you want three more degrees for WCA, I’m heading mode, you turn three more degrees with the AP off, and then turn it back on. :)
Click to expand...

With a Century ya just turn the knob thing on the DG or HSI to move the heading bug. No need to turn it off then on. Told ya’ll he’d be disoriented.

(Never ever notice attire, piercings, skin art, or hair in Boulder. Never)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top