Furnace / AC

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jesse

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Jesse
Danielle found a big wet spot in the carpet Monday. After some looking around I determined it was coming from the A-coil on the furnace. It had turned into a big pile of rust and it was leaking through the drain pain. I poked my thumb right through it. Considering how the system is from '86..It's time to move on.

It seems that first I must make a choice between a 95% system and a 80% system. I took a look at my gas bills for 2010. After subtracting what the water heater cost I spent a total of $350 in heat in 2010 with my 1986 furnace. Clearly a high efficiency option won't pay for itself.

I'm left trying to decide between these three quotes:http://www.jesseangell.com/forums/trane.pdf
http://www.jesseangell.com/forums/furnace/trane.pdf
http://www.jesseangell.com/forums/furnace/goodman.pdf
http://www.jesseangell.com/forums/furnace/rheem.pdf

Both vendors can install on Friday, seemed fairly knowledgeable, this is a pretty common house floor plan in the area and they knew it well.

It seems like it really comes down to brand. Part of me is leaning towards the Trane and the other part of me doesn't think it matters and leans towards the Rheem.

Thoughts?
 
All else being somewhat equal, I would look closely at the warranty. New systems don't seem to last as long as old systems, like yours did. I have seen warranties everywhere from 1 yr parts and labor to 12 years parts and labor. Even if it doesn't break down, those extended warranties they try to sell you after the factory warranty wears out will kill you. And make sure the warranty is FACTORY. My last system had a 5 yr factory warranty and an extra 5 years guaranteed by the distributor. The distributor went out of business almost as soon as the economy tanked, before his their extension ever kicked in.
 
I'd agree with the warranty. I'd go with the Trane.
 
Trane has a great reputation. Last month they paid $800 in labor and repairs on the unit we installed in 2006, with no fuss or questions. I didn't even ASK them to pay. The HVAC dealer didn't collect a check from me, instead submitted a claim on our behalf to Trane. First I knew of it was the notices in the mail apologizing for the failure, thanking us for our business and confirming the bill was handled.

I also believe Trane's name will help you with value at resell time.
 
What John said.

It's about warranty & service. The dealer & their reputation should be front and center in your decision.

IIRC, most of the brands on the market are made by a small handful of manufacturers. And the components are made by an even smaller bunch.

The higher efficiency MAY pay for itself - especially if there are rebates & tax credits available.

I replaced my furnace, AC, and WH last fall when the tax credits still applied & there was a manufacturer rebate. In the end, the tax credits and rebates knocked something like 30% off the price. I ended up with Carrier because of the dealer (it was between Carrier and Trane, I chose based on the dealer).

There were 3 levels of efficiency & the dealer offered 5 "packages". I took a "mid-tier" package that included multi-speed blower and AC compressor. Those features make a huge difference in noise and comfort. The furnace is 95%, and the AC was 17 SEER. Options on the furnace were 80%, 90%, 95% and 98%. AC ranged from 15 SEER to 21 SEER.

You may well come out ahead if the rebates and tax incentives are still available. The biggest energy savings will be from the AC rather than a gas furnace. Moving from 80% to 90% on a furnace is a little over 10% savings. Moving from a 25 year old AC that's probably 8-9 SEER to 17 SEER will be a 50% savings.

Trane is good stuff. Carrier is pretty good, though I've had my problems. Rheem and the others are generally considered lower grades. The warranty will tell the story. My dealer extended the warranty to full 5 year parts/labor if I do a maintenance contract. The big-ticket items (heat exchanger and condenser) usually have longer warranties - the longer the better on those items.
 
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Agree with above, go with the Trane. I bought a couple of Rheems for my house and one my rental houses. Both went down within 3 years. Warranty not honored for one of them ( compressor and condensor failure;claimed system was abused, despite having digital thermostats with full system tracking and history). Never again.
 
Oh, and I did go with variable speed. My electric usage/bills dropped to one third of the previous values, and the upstairs is actually cold when I want it to be. The previous system couldn't even get close.
 
:popcorn:

Buying a house currently that has an older AC unit so thanks for the learns!
 
Something else to keep in mind with high-efficiency furnaces is that they need a drain.

They condense slightly acidic water out of the air in the combustion side of the heat-exchanger. That water has to be drained somewhere.

http://m.managemylife.com/mmh/questions/109069-does-high-efficiency-furnace-work

Also in exceedingly dry climates (like here) the house-side air can end up being a lot dryer than a regular efficiency furnace. You often end up adding a whole-house humidifier behind them to keep from shriveling up and blowing away. So you need that and a water source near the furnace.

Brand-wise, we're happy with our Carrier here. Lightning strike nearby took out the controller board once. $45 fixed it. Zero problems, installed in the late-80s.
 
Oh if they have an economical way to do it, I would love to have a zone-based system and if I were doing HVAC changes to this house, I'd get it done at a furnace replacement.

I'd also like an integrated whole-house fan that could pull in cool night air whenever appropriate.

I don't need the whole house heated at all times to high temps and our upstairs is always significantly warmer than the main floor.

We don't have AC, it's not necessary with a whole-house fan here other than a few weeks a year, but I'd love not to have to manually dump the hot house air when the outside temp falls enough nor get up to turn it off once the interior temp falls enough.
 
denverpilot said:
Oh if they have an economical way to do it, I would love to have a zone-based system and if I were doing HVAC changes to this house, I'd get it done at a furnace replacement.
Click to expand...

I had one once. Yes, it was nice. Yes, it allowed heating/cooling of different parts of the house. Yes it was overkill. It was also quite large, complex, and required additional maintenance.

I chose not to do it in my current house for a reason.
 
Definitely go with a furnace that has a variable speed (not multi-speed) blower. These are so much more efficient that you'll notice the difference in your electric bill. My old furnace (80% flue efficiency) would sometimes cost more to run the blower than it did for gas (when gas was cheap and electric rates were high). The previous generation multi-speed blowers required pretty nearly as much power to run at the reduced speed used with heating as it did on high in AC mode.
 
http://www.furnacecompare.com/

Goodman owns the Amana, Janitrol, Goodman and GmC brands of HVAC equipment.

Rheem is a wholly owned subsidiary of Paloma Industries. Rheem also owns the Ruud brand of central air conditioners, furnaces and heat pumps, and Raypak, which manufacturers hydronic heating systems.

Trane, Inc owns America Standard and is owned by Ingersoll-Rand.

I'd go for the highest efficiency rating I could afford. Fuel prices are unlikely to decrease over time.

I have a Trane unit with an SEER of 14, but it's a/c only. It was the highest available at the time. I see they have one rated at 19 now.
 
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The problem with going with a high efficiency unit is that I'd never recover the cost. I paid $350 to heat my house last year with a 70% unit. The "high efficiency" option will save me at best about $50 per year. It would take *45* years before I broke even.

My house is very well insulted and seems rather efficient. It would def. make sense on homes where people are paying $300 a month for heating.

I may have them quote making the AC more efficient and leaving the furnace at 80% and see what that works out to.
 
jesse said:
The problem with going with a high efficiency unit is that I'd never recover the cost. I paid $350 to heat my house last year with a 70% unit. The "high efficiency" option will save me at best about $50 per year. It would take *45* years before I broke even.
.
Click to expand...

You may well be right. But just remember to calculate in any additional rebates or tax incentives for going to the higher efficiency unit. You are going to have to spend a few grand regardless. It may only save you a hundred or so a year. A more expensive, higher efficiency unit may save you another hundred a year, but you also may get a grand or two in rebates and tax credits.

Maybe you should write an APP that helps people calculate energy savings + rebates for buying HVAC systems.

Oh yeah, edited to add: remember to add in any additional resale value of your house that a high efficiency system will bring if you plan to move in the next few years.
 
I can't see a high-efficiency system adding resale value so much as making the house more appealing vs. another one. As Jesse pointed out, his house is pretty well insulated. Mine is, too, and because of that my heating bills are much lower than my friends in the area. Then again, my house also has a heat pump rather than a gas or oil furnace.
 
...and a pump, and more plumbing, which can also fail. Ask me how I know!

Variable-speed fan sounds interesting. A digital programmable thermostat is also low hanging fruit.

I think my water heater needs replacement (about 15 years old; doubt if the anode rod has ever been changed or if it's ever been flushed). Condensing or tankless water heaters are $$$. I'll probably go with a conventional energy star AO Smith, but branded as Kenmore/Sears for the 12 year warranty instead of 6...

denverpilot said:
Something else to keep in mind with high-efficiency furnaces is that they need a drain.

They condense slightly acidic water out of the air in the combustion side of the heat-exchanger. That water has to be drained somewhere.
Click to expand...
 
We replaced our 25-year old furnace and AC with a 80%/SEER 12 unit from Trane. Added the whole house air cleaner and humidifier at the time, and put in multiple zones (Cape Cod style house with an addition on the back).

The Trane has been bulletproof for six years now. Our plumbing/HVAC guys come out twice a year for an inspection, and there have been no issues. I replace the air filter media and the humidifier "guts" myself.

Our winter heating bills were cut in half, actually more than that since gas rates have gone up. Having the zones means we can heat/cool the areas we spend time in and vary that pattern over the day (bedrooms comfy at evening through morning, and left to a wider range of acceptable temps during the day).
 
We're right in the middle of replacing our central air, but not the furnace. Our cooling costs (electric) are much higher than heating (gas). Plus, summers in KC can get pretty rough - but winters can be not much fun either.

One piece of advice that I have seen - get the minimum SEER A/C. That would be a 13SEER. Since that's way better than the A/C in most older houses, it's the most cost effective replacement. Moving up in SEER ratings adds more $, and the savings per cost difference between a higher SEER and a 13 SEER will take longer to recover.

Just something to think about. Of course, I stepped up one level to 14, so take that advice for whatever it's worth. I see from your quotes that 13 SEER was what you were considering anyway.

As others have said - go for the best factory warranty first, then whatever the dealer can do on top of that is gravy.
 
I have a Goodman system at my log shack in south Texas - has been zero-issues since purchase. Hardly a useful data point.

Frankly, I'd roll with the dealer / installer with the best reputation.
 
denverpilot said:
I'd also like an integrated whole-house fan that could pull in cool night air whenever appropriate.
Click to expand...

I installed one of those in our house when we lived in Denver 30 years ago. Cut a hole in the ceiling in the top floor, installed the fan and a switch and it worked great. Turned it on high speed when things cooled down in the evening. Had a stiff breeze coming up the stairs. Put it on low speed when we went to bed. Shut down and buttoned up the windows in the morning and the house stayed comfortable all day. Good insulation is key.
 
jesse said:
The problem with going with a high efficiency unit is that I'd never recover the cost. I paid $350 to heat my house last year with a 70% unit. The "high efficiency" option will save me at best about $50 per year. It would take *45* years before I broke even.

My house is very well insulted and seems rather efficient. It would def. make sense on homes where people are paying $300 a month for heating.

I may have them quote making the AC more efficient and leaving the furnace at 80% and see what that works out to.
Click to expand...

I don't have a suggestion but I am curious about your yearly cost of only $350. :yikes:

You are in Nebraska? I'm in Georgia and my winter bills run about $650-$700 per year for gas (only the furnace, nothing else gas) in my 3/2 2,200 square foot house built in 2003 and it seems to be well insulated. I'm curious as to the cost of gas in NE. Sounds like you have a bargain.
 
jesse said:
Danielle found a big wet spot in the carpet Monday. After some looking around I determined it was coming from the A-coil on the furnace. It had turned into a big pile of rust and it was leaking through the drain pain. I poked my thumb right through it. Considering how the system is from '86..It's time to move on.

It seems that first I must make a choice between a 95% system and a 80% system. I took a look at my gas bills for 2010. After subtracting what the water heater cost I spent a total of $350 in heat in 2010 with my 1986 furnace. Clearly a high efficiency option won't pay for itself.

I'm left trying to decide between these three quotes:
http://www.jesseangell.com/forums/furnace/trane.pdf
http://www.jesseangell.com/forums/furnace/goodman.pdf
http://www.jesseangell.com/forums/furnace/rheem.pdf

Both vendors can install on Friday, seemed fairly knowledgeable, this is a pretty common house floor plan in the area and they knew it well.

It seems like it really comes down to brand. Part of me is leaning towards the Trane and the other part of me doesn't think it matters and leans towards the Rheem.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

That's what she said...
 
Gmaper said:
I don't have a suggestion but I am curious about your yearly cost of only $350. :yikes:

You are in Nebraska? I'm in Georgia and my winter bills run about $650-$700 per year for gas (only the furnace, nothing else gas) in my 3/2 2,200 square foot house built in 2003 and it seems to be well insulated. I'm curious as to the cost of gas in NE. Sounds like you have a bargain.
Click to expand...

Not sure what we pay per unit of gas. I didn't even look at the numbesr that close before, just kind of did it in my head. If you actually look at them..it's even cheaper:

12/20/2010 $61.36
11/15/2010 $25.73
10/12/2010 $22.72
09/14/2010 $27.44
08/10/2010 $25.26
07/09/2010 $26.45
06/14/2010 $29.71
05/12/2010 $30.92
04/12/2010 $57.11
03/10/2010 $80.34
02/10/2010 $95.28
01/11/2010 $97.29

So in all I paid the gas company $579.91 in 2010. The furnace was shut down from 05 to 11. That leaves "heat" bills of Jan, Feb, March, April, and Dec. They add up to 391.38. But we must take into account the waterheater and general service fee. We can do that by averaging out the months where the furnace was off and then multiplying that by the number of furnace on months. The average works out to $26.89 per month for service fee and water heater. Multiply that by the number of gas on months (5) which works out to 134.45. Now subtract that number from the heat cost, and you'll come up with $256.93.

I paid $256.93 to heat my house in 2010..with a 70% efficiency furance. Hence why I cannot justify thousands more to get a 95% instead of the 80%.

I just signed a contract for the trane option. They're installing it tomorrow.
 
have you found out that you actually have electric heat yet?
 
tonycondon said:
have you found out that you actually have electric heat yet?
Click to expand...

He's been getting those good heating costs by running his furnace LOP.
 
Matthew said:
Just got our central air replaced this morning - 4hrs, start to finish. If you are getting the furnace swapped out too, probably add another 4 hrs?
Click to expand...
They're showing up at about 7am and told me it'll take about all day.
 
jesse said:
Not sure what we pay per unit of gas. I didn't even look at the numbesr that close before, just kind of did it in my head. If you actually look at them..it's even cheaper:

12/20/2010 $61.36
11/15/2010 $25.73
10/12/2010 $22.72
09/14/2010 $27.44
08/10/2010 $25.26
07/09/2010 $26.45
06/14/2010 $29.71
05/12/2010 $30.92
04/12/2010 $57.11
03/10/2010 $80.34
02/10/2010 $95.28
01/11/2010 $97.29

So in all I paid the gas company $579.91 in 2010. The furnace was shut down from 05 to 11. That leaves "heat" bills of Jan, Feb, March, April, and Dec. They add up to 391.38. But we must take into account the waterheater and general service fee. We can do that by averaging out the months where the furnace was off and then multiplying that by the number of furnace on months. The average works out to $26.89 per month for service fee and water heater. Multiply that by the number of gas on months (5) which works out to 134.45. Now subtract that number from the heat cost, and you'll come up with $256.93.

I paid $256.93 to heat my house in 2010..with a 70% efficiency furance. Hence why I cannot justify thousands more to get a 95% instead of the 80%.
Click to expand...
I paid $540 to the natural gas company in the past 12 months, which is less than Jesse. However, I don't separate out the water heater and the furnace, so I'm not sure how much I pay for each. I could guess that the water heater costs about $15-20/month because that's about what I pay in the summer. I have a 1,400 sq. ft ranch with a finished walkout basement and I heat it all.
 
jesse said:
lmfao. Watch my bill go way the hell up with my new one...
Click to expand...

Just have me come over and install a mixture knob for you. That'll solve your problems square away.
 
Everskyward said:
However, I don't separate out the water heater and the furnace, so I'm not sure how much I pay for each. I could guess that the water heater costs about $15-20/month because that's about what I pay in the summer
Click to expand...
That is how I figured it out and should be accurate enough. Even if I don't take that into consideration it's still low enough to make the payoff on the HE option not worth it.
 
GeorgeC said:
I think my water heater needs replacement (about 15 years old; doubt if the anode rod has ever been changed or if it's ever been flushed). Condensing or tankless water heaters are $$$. I'll probably go with a conventional energy star AO Smith, but branded as Kenmore/Sears for the 12 year warranty instead of 6...
Click to expand...

Do it NOW... it gets much more expensive once the bottom rusts out and spills water. Don't ask me how I know. If you haven't replaced it, maintained it or flushed it on schedule, get preemptive.
 
jesse said:
Not sure what we pay per unit of gas. I didn't even look at the numbesr that close before, just kind of did it in my head. If you actually look at them..it's even cheaper:

12/20/2010 $61.36
11/15/2010 $25.73
10/12/2010 $22.72
09/14/2010 $27.44
08/10/2010 $25.26
07/09/2010 $26.45
06/14/2010 $29.71
05/12/2010 $30.92
04/12/2010 $57.11
03/10/2010 $80.34
02/10/2010 $95.28
01/11/2010 $97.29

So in all I paid the gas company $579.91 in 2010. The furnace was shut down from 05 to 11. That leaves "heat" bills of Jan, Feb, March, April, and Dec. They add up to 391.38. But we must take into account the waterheater and general service fee. We can do that by averaging out the months where the furnace was off and then multiplying that by the number of furnace on months. The average works out to $26.89 per month for service fee and water heater. Multiply that by the number of gas on months (5) which works out to 134.45. Now subtract that number from the heat cost, and you'll come up with $256.93.

I paid $256.93 to heat my house in 2010..with a 70% efficiency furance. Hence why I cannot justify thousands more to get a 95% instead of the 80%.

I just signed a contract for the trane option. They're installing it tomorrow.
Click to expand...

That is very interesting. :yes:

Looking at how many $$$ per month for water heating indicates to me that your heating cost is a real bargain. The cost for hot water seems reasonable unless you happen to be providing hot water for the whole neighborhood in which case I'd question the accuracy of your meter (but don't call them to have it checked :no:).

Does it not get cold where you live? Maybe you keep your thermostat at 55 degrees in the winter? You secretly get heat from your neighbors? I think it is amazing. :D

If you happen to find a unit figure for therms or CCF or MCF for one of those months I'd sure be interested in knowing the amount.
 
Gmaper said:
If you happen to find a unit figure for therms or CCF or MCF for one of those months I'd sure be interested in knowing the amount.
Click to expand...
Not Jesse, but since our bills seemed similar...

Customer charge: $10.00
Transportation 36 therms @ $0.14109: $5.08
Upstream Cost 36 therms @ $0.16095: $5.79
Commodity Cost 36 therms @ $0.45933: $16.54
G-DSMCA: $0.49
G-DSMCA 36 therms @ $0.00686: $0.25
Total charge this service: $38.15

My bill for April. Both my furnace and my water heater are natural gas.
 
jesse said:
The problem with going with a high efficiency unit is that I'd never recover the cost. I paid $350 to heat my house last year with a 70% unit. The "high efficiency" option will save me at best about $50 per year. It would take *45* years before I broke even.

My house is very well insulted and seems rather efficient. It would def. make sense on homes where people are paying $300 a month for heating.

I may have them quote making the AC more efficient and leaving the furnace at 80% and see what that works out to.
Click to expand...

I hope you're including the time value of money in that calculation, including inflation. It's very likely the fuel cost over the life of the unit will double or even triple. Plus with all those kids leaving the door open you'll be running the unit a lot harder.:rolleyes:

Maybe I missed something, but why replace the entire unit when only the A/C section is having issues. A drip pan shouldn't be that hard to replace.
 
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