Full Flap Full Power Stall

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skubasteve

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skubasteve
Hi folks, great forum, glad to be here, my first post.

I received my PPL in December-2014 with ~70 hours (~50 hours with CFI). My 2 primary instructors (@ KAPA & KGJT) were good and C-172 was my ride of choice. Other than a 5 month delay getting my 3rd Class medical, during which I continued flying (hence the high training hours), all went very well until one part part of my check ride.

In cold air and perfect conditions my check ride demise was a Full Flap Full Power Stall Recovery. I won't go into all the gory details but suffice to say after 2 check rides I'm no better at this and I now have a s-o-l-i-d respect for altitude, stall awareness, coordinated flight and spin mitigation. I was trained on the ground and in-flight on Takeoff Stalls by both CFIs. I recognized and respected stalls for their uncoordinated flight and spin potential, serious stuff. At KAPA there's rarely calm air so I had some stall experience in less than perfect conditions.

Is the Full Flap "go around stall" or "elevator trim stall" intended to be taught and/or tested in-flight for PPT? I reviewed the PTS, AIM, AFH, PHAK and searched here and the net but can't find specifics for a requirement to teach or demonstrate the Full Flap Takeoff Stall in-flight. Were my CFIs right not to teach this stall (too risky)? Was it appropriate for the CPE to test this stall (untrained student)? I'm not saying this isn't a good thing to be proficient in, but if it's going to be tested it should be taught.

Anyhow I'm flying without training wheels now, still a greenhorn and still studying/practicing.

Thanks for any insights.
 
To me, the hardest part is holding the yoke all the way back. Keep the ball centered while the nose climbs. When if finally stalls, keep the wings from dipping with the rudders and just lower the nose. They are a bit scary, especially at first. If you want to get over stall fear, learn spins.
 
The more unusual stall configurations were possibly demo'd but not taught by a part 141 program with which I'm familiar. The "possibly" was the instructor chose to demo one of the stalls from the list. They aren't in the PP PTS so the DPE should not have failed you on them.

As others have said, the PP cert is a license to learn so enjoy the learning and watch the winds around here this spring.

And welcome to POA, we have a pretty good group of folks in the Denver/Front Range area.
 
I'm not in instructor but I can say that I wasn't ever tested in a departure stall with full flaps. I was trained and tested using typical take-off flap settings. I wouldn't object to full flaps because the nose would be lower relative to 2 notches but I don't see the point of full power/full flap stalls. My training consisted of power off and power on stalls with level wings and in varying degrees of bank to both directions. I like power on turning stalls in practice but if I ever do one in real flying? I've screwed up badly. Stop and goes with full flaps and without re-setting the trim? That's a great exercise for go-around awareness. All pilots should do that one occasionally to remember how much forward pressure it takes to maintain airspeed.
 
Clark1961 said:
The more unusual stall configurations were possibly demo'd but not taught by a part 141 program with which I'm familiar. The "possibly" was the instructor chose to demo one of the stalls from the list. They aren't in the PP PTS so the DPE should not have failed you on them.

As others have said, the PP cert is a license to learn so enjoy the learning and watch the winds around here this spring.

And welcome to POA, we have a pretty good group of folks in the Denver/Front Range area.
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That.

Good to know, good to practice, but not in the PTS.
 
Woo, fellow checkride buster welcome to POA.
Also got my PPL in december and a full flap power on stall was not on my practical.

Seems to me a full flap power on stall would lead to a really slow and nose high attitude and the stall break would be substantial. Heck when we did departure stalls we always just slowed the plane down to about 75-80 mph put in 75% power or less and pulled the nose up till the stall.

I think some DPE's just pull stuff out their ass sometimes. My slowflight on my practical was done at 80mph in a 150 cause thats what the DPE said to do. Normally I'd do it at 55...
 
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So here is my CFI answer. I may or may not demo an elevator trim stall but I will not allow my PPL students to do it without me as I feel it is too dangerous for them as they are just learning and they may not be able to react to it quickly enough or overcome it. The ASA Visualized Flight Maneuvers Handbook lists it as for CFI training only.

None of the sylabi that I have mention it more than a one-time demo. One thing I do for sure with elevator trim is that I demo how quickly it can change your pitch and how little time you have to react to it by having the student takes hands off the yoke and adding a few quick turns of the wheel both ways and showing how quickly the pitch attitude changes.

Now, I was taught in my CFI training a long time ago to only demo accelerated stalls and elevator trim stalls. I cannot remember the recommendation on cross-control stalls. Accelerated stalls you don't even need to take to the actual stall. In a steep turn all you need to do is make the horn sound off and have the student note the higher IAS and realize the stall speed has become higher, all while demonstrating it. Secondary stalls I will demo as they seem to be a non-event in a trainer. Cross-control stalls are also CFI only per ASA and I have yet to demo one of those. I definitely talk about all of them for sure.

Generally the way I read it in the maneuvers book, only normal power-on and power-off stalls are for the student to actually do.

Time to get flamed. I am still a low-time CFI before everyone roasts me alive. So I am open to change. I do not want to do my students a disservice.

David
 
Wow. I am not sure I have EVER done a full flap full power stall.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Wow. I am not sure I have EVER done a full flap full power stall.
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Me either. I was always taught and teach that for a power-on you are simulating takeoff which may only require 10 degrees max in a 172. I do teach power-off with and without full-flaps because you have to be able to land either way just in case the flap motors die.

David
 
Now you've got me curious what a full power stall will do with the barn doors all the way down.

I've never done one in the skywagon.

Stall break full power can be tricky. As long as I'm coordinated the world doesn't start to turn.
 
I appreciate the detailed response David. My training and check ride went well in all other respects. My confidence was rocked for a while although POA is helping me understand this is a normal part of flying. I don't mind the second check ride, I'm a better pilot for going through the exercise because my stall/spin awareness is now permanently peaked.
 
I've come close, but didn't allow the stall to happen. Took a lot of forward pressure on the yoke, and spinning the trim wheel to relieve pressure, so I could get the flap problem sussed. But I was not required to perform full flap, power on, stalls on my checkride.
 
Here it is right from the book...

C. TASK: POWER-ON STALLS (ASEL and ASES)
NOTE: In some high performance airplanes, the power setting may have to
be reduced below the practical test standards guideline power setting to
prevent excessively high pitch attitudes (greater than 30° nose up).
REFERENCES: FAA-H-8083-3, AC 61-67; POH/AFM.
Objective. To determine that the applicant:
1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to power-on stalls.
2. Selects an entry altitude that allows the task to be completed no
lower than 1,500 feet (460 meters) AGL.
3. Establishes the takeoff or departure configuration. Sets power to no
less than 65 percent available power.
4. Transitions smoothly from the takeoff or departure attitude to the
pitch attitude that will induce a stall.
5. Maintains a specified heading, ±10°, in straight flight; maintains a
specified angle of bank not to exceed 20°, ±10°, in turning flight,
while inducing the stall.
6. Recognizes and recovers promptly after the stall occurs by
simultaneously reducing the angle of attack, increasing power as
appropriate, and leveling the wings to return to a straight-and-level
flight attitude with a minimum loss of altitude appropriate for the
airplane.
7. Retracts the flaps to the recommended setting; retracts the landing
gear if retractable, after a positive rate of climb is established.
8. Accelerates to VX or VY speed before the final flap retraction; returns
to the altitude, heading, and airspeed specified by the examiner.


The gray area here is, are full flaps a departure configuration? Obviously normally it is not, But then from a Go Around it can be a very normal situation.

Many airplanes have the worst stall characteristics with full flaps and full power. I have surprised a number of super cub drivers by this, and I am sure there are a few dead super cub drivers that weren't expecting it.

Because full flap high power stalls are usually the worst situation I make sure my students are familiar with them.


Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
RoscoeT said:
Yeah? Then that Skywagon must have a sucky rudder. Won't go there about the pilot. :lol:
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I guess it's o.k. cuz I'm still here. But it will drop a wing if the ball isn't centered going in full power.

Power off stalls are jello pudding.
 
Let me make the maneuver easy for you. Trim for your entry to lets call it 85 kts, at 85 quit trimming and keep pulling. Stand on the right rudder to keep coordinated, but not too much, keep the "ball in the cage" and keep pulling, until either you reach stall buffet (CPL Standard) or stall breaks (PPL Standard). At that point just let go of the yoke and keep the plane upright with your feet and the plane will neatly recover itself at 85kts and you can continue to clean up the recovery from there. All a power on stall requires is that you lower the nose and keep directional control. If you let the stall break, the nose lowers on it's own, as it does if you are flying below your trim speed. If you are trimmed for a good recovery speed, you don't have to think about and work that and you can pay more attention to your directional control with your feet, keep the ailerons neutral until you have sufficient flying speed and pick up your wings with opposite rudder. Being in proper trim still helps when you are working them to perfection as you have better finesse when trimmed in the proper range.
 
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brcase said:
Here it is right from the book...

C. TASK: POWER-ON STALLS (ASEL and ASES)
NOTE: In some high performance airplanes, the power setting may have to
be reduced below the practical test standards guideline power setting to
prevent excessively high pitch attitudes (greater than 30° nose up).
REFERENCES: FAA-H-8083-3, AC 61-67; POH/AFM.
Objective. To determine that the applicant:
1. Exhibits knowledge of the elements related to power-on stalls.
2. Selects an entry altitude that allows the task to be completed no
lower than 1,500 feet (460 meters) AGL.
3. Establishes the takeoff or departure configuration. Sets power to no
less than 65 percent available power.
4. Transitions smoothly from the takeoff or departure attitude to the
pitch attitude that will induce a stall.
5. Maintains a specified heading, ±10°, in straight flight; maintains a
specified angle of bank not to exceed 20°, ±10°, in turning flight,
while inducing the stall.
6. Recognizes and recovers promptly after the stall occurs by
simultaneously reducing the angle of attack, increasing power as
appropriate, and leveling the wings to return to a straight-and-level
flight attitude with a minimum loss of altitude appropriate for the
airplane.
7. Retracts the flaps to the recommended setting; retracts the landing
gear if retractable, after a positive rate of climb is established.
8. Accelerates to VX or VY speed before the final flap retraction; returns
to the altitude, heading, and airspeed specified by the examiner.


The gray area here is, are full flaps a departure configuration? Obviously normally it is not, But then from a Go Around it can be a very normal situation.

Many airplanes have the worst stall characteristics with full flaps and full power. I have surprised a number of super cub drivers by this, and I am sure there are a few dead super cub drivers that weren't expecting it.

Because full flap high power stalls are usually the worst situation I make sure my students are familiar with them.


Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
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No grey area, what are your takeoff flap settings? They ain't full flap.
 
brcase said:
The gray area here is, are full flaps a departure configuration? Obviously normally it is not, But then from a Go Around it can be a very normal situation.
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gotta disagree with that one...first thing on a go around after full power is what? flaps retracted partially, right? yup, that's what I thought.
 
If you want to simulate it properly trim for power off full flap final approach then firewall the throttle. Doing a traditional takeoff stall with full flaps is kind of a nonsense maneuver if you ask me.
 
Clark1961 said:
gotta disagree with that one...first thing on a go around after full power is what? flaps retracted partially, right? yup, that's what I thought.
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Where is "go around" mentioned in there?
 
Silvaire said:
If you want to simulate it properly trim for power off full flap final approach then firewall the throttle. Doing a traditional takeoff stall with full flaps is kind of a nonsense maneuver if you ask me.
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Agreed this the properly way to demonstrate them...
and hence the previous discussion about trim stalls.
 
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skubasteve said:
Is the Full Flap "go around stall" or "elevator trim stall" intended to be taught and/or tested in-flight for PPT?
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No. Neither is in the PP-Airplane PTS.

I reviewed the PTS, AIM, AFH, PHAK and searched here and the net but can't find specifics for a requirement to teach or demonstrate the Full Flap Takeoff Stall in-flight.
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That's because it isn't there.

Were my CFIs right not to teach this stall (too risky)?
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They were right, but not for that reason. The reason they were right is that it's not a required maneuver and would only occur after several errors/failures had already occurred.

Was it appropriate for the CPE to test this stall (untrained student)?
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Not only not appropriate, but contrary to 14 CFR 61.43(a)(1) and FAA Order 8900.2.

I'm not saying this isn't a good thing to be proficient in, but if it's going to be tested it should be taught.
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You have a point, but the more important point is that if it's not in the PTS, it's not supposed to be tested on the practical test. It would be appropriate for your instructor to bring this to that DPE's POI at the FSDO, and let the FSDO handle it from here.
 
Full power go around with the barn doors all out on the wagon takes an immense amount of forward pressure if you're trimmed way back.

I can see where it could get a newbie into deep doo-doo.
 
What recourse does the student have in this case? If a DPE fails you for this and only this when it is not allowed?
 
Pedals2Paddles said:
What recourse does the student have in this case? If a DPE fails you for this and only this when it is not allowed?
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File a formal complaint with the FSDO. If you win, the bust is removed from your record and you get a free re-test with a FSDO Inspector -- and the DPE gets some painful retraining from the FSDO. You don't often win, but it's been known to happen. And you don't ever want to go back to that DPE.
 
A free re-test. Wonderful. I was hoping the logical answer would be "oh sorry, you passed, have a nice day." But that would make too much sense.
 
I had to do one of these on my checkride - for the first time ever. He actually said : "let me guess...you've never done one before?".
 
skubasteve said:
I won't go into all the gory details but suffice to say after 2 check rides I'm no better at this and I now have a s-o-l-i-d respect for altitude, stall awareness, coordinated flight and spin mitigation.
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Say again? How did you pass the second ride if you're still no better after it? Didn't you go practice until you could do it perfectly? FWIW, you'll need to use full right rudder and get the nose down ASAP (probably yoke forward to the stop) or you're headed for a power-on spin entry, pronto. I would've expected you to be real sharp at it before the retest, since forgetting to retract flaps in the heat of the moment is a common mistake and stalling then could easily be fatal. Especially possible in mountainous terrain with no real horizon.

dtuuri
 
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Pedals2Paddles said:
A free re-test. Wonderful. I was hoping the logical answer would be "oh sorry, you passed, have a nice day." But that would make too much sense.
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The FAA isn't going to give anyone a free pass on whatever items they didn't get to before the failure was issued, and I don't think that's an illogical or nonsensical position to take.
 
brcase said:
Agreed this the properly way to demonstrate them...
and hence the previous discussion about trim stalls.
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I must be out of the loop. What's a trim stall?

STOL operators are always looking for the slowest way to operate. The slowest way I know is to use full flaps and enough power to maintain altitude. Cross the line and it stalls. No big deal. Lower the nose a little or add more power and it's flying. I don't understand the problem.
 
Pedals2Paddles said:
A free re-test. Wonderful. I was hoping the logical answer would be "oh sorry, you passed, have a nice day." But that would make too much sense.
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yeah, you don't want a "free" retest with the FSDO. If you're just flying recreationally, just find another DPE. NEVER go to a FSDO unless required.
 
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