Fuel pressure goes red on take-off in a O540 (Dakota)

Trogdor

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Trogdor
I had an issue on Friday that had me abort a take-off: The aux fuel pump in a 1978 PA28B (Dakota) with an O540 died. I discovered this post abort and the Club I fly with has since ordered a new one. However, I am concerned still about the mechanical driven fuel pump because….

The reason for the abort was the fuel pressure gauge under the G3X EIS page went red during my roll out. I was still accelerating on the ground but it dipped into the red. Yes, I had the aux fuel pump switch on but presumably it was inop already. Apparently, it had died before take-off and I didn’t notice! That’s on me and I need to verify the pressure number before letting the throttle rip (I thought I did but I’m not 100% sure now, I do verify it during my run-up but I realize there is a short window where yeah, it could die the next time I tap it on). I will fix a few things in the way I do checklists and callouts to close this gap.

But regardless, shouldn’t the mechanical one still hold enough pressure in the lines even if the aux dies? i.e. I understand the issue with low-wing aircraft and gravity but I was always of the belief that an aux fuel pump was a “just in case” not “if you don’t hit this switch the end” kind of thing. I could very well be wrong. The engine btw was humming along when I aborted so it didn’t feel like it was starving (gph was around 20ish if I recall but I will have to look at logs). I did have full tanks when it happened.

Trust me in that I am very relieved that gauge went red and I avoided potentially a very, VERY bad day. But I am wondering if we should be looking at that mechanical pump and/or sensor as well.

NOTE: In a semi-related note, the fuel pressure gauge has gone red on climb out if I turn off the fuel pump. We were told that Piper’s typically run low because of the sensor’s placement and it being carberated (0.5 psi is considered nominal but I have seen it dip to 0.1 or 0.2 despite the gph still high).
 
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shouldn’t the mechanical one still hold enough pressure in the lines even if the aux dies?
Depends on the system design and use whether the electric pump is a true backup.
 
Depends on the system design and use whether the electric pump is a true backup.
I understand, hence the thread. Hoping someone knows more about the Dakota fuel setup than i do.
 
We were told that Piper’s typically run low because of the sensor’s placement and it being carberated (0.5 psi is considered nominal but I have seen it dip to 0.1 or 0.2 despite the gph still high).
Holy cow, is it really that low and considered normal? My Cherokee's O-360 has a fuel pressure of 4.5-5.5 psi depending on how hard I'm pushing the engine. Totally different engines, of course, but that fuel pressure is surprising to me.
 
I understand, hence the thread. Hoping someone knows more about the Dakota fuel setup than i do.
Per the mx manual description it is a backup in case of mechanical pump failure. So since the engine ran you may have an indicating problem? Heres a link to the manual Chap 28 and a screenshot.

Dakota MX Manual

1734305961236.png
 
Had a similar thing happen and the cause was a piece of Teflon in the transducer after a new install.

That was on an injected piper though.
 
At takeoff power you burn something in the mid 20s gph. I’d expect a fuel transducer to have a hard time registering such low pressures accurately at that flow rate. My injected 390 runs at about 30psi and I’ve forgotten the electric pump a lot of times. No problem maintaining pressure. I presume the G3X is using an EI cube transducer? I’d have the mechanic check the installation to verify it’s per EI’s instructions.
 
Been a couple year since i flew a dakota, but iirc, ours would drop into the red in a full power climb with the boost pump off. Factory gauges, so not real precise. EGT was consistent with the pump on or off, so apparently the mechanical pump could  just keep up with the engine's appetite.

Pipers should be able to run just fine on either pump alone. We run them both down low just in case the mechanical pump fails. Up high, you have plenty of time to turn the electric pump on, but close to the ground, the few seconds it takes to refill the carb may be more than you have.
 
Been a couple year since i flew a dakota, but iirc, ours would drop into the red in a full power climb with the boost pump off. Factory gauges, so not real precise. EGT was consistent with the pump on or off, so apparently the mechanical pump could  just keep up with the engine's appetite.

Pipers should be able to run just fine on either pump alone. We run them both down low just in case the mechanical pump fails. Up high, you have plenty of time to turn the electric pump on, but close to the ground, the few seconds it takes to refill the carb may be more than you have.
What about tAkeoff?
 
Based on my experience with my Dakota, the electric fuel pump needs to be on during climb and takeoff in order to avoid drops in fuel pressure. Interestingly, on the two instances I failed to engage the fuel pump on takeoff earlier during ownership (adjusted my checklist and flow to prevent this), the fuel flow remained unaffected. At the time, I sought out information much like you are right now, and I was satisfied that this is normal for this airplane.
 
I really appreciate the feedback guys.
 
O-540s in a Dakota?
dakota.jpg
Isn't that just a mite underpowered?
 
For what it's worth, I own the same plane w/ same engine. I once forgot to turn on the aux fuel pump and it read 0.0 on takeoff, but operated normally. I've never had this issue when the aux pump was on, sometimes it actually reads too high.
 
For what it's worth, I own the same plane w/ same engine. I once forgot to turn on the aux fuel pump and it read 0.0 on takeoff, but operated normally. I've never had this issue when the aux pump was on, sometimes it actually reads too high.

That is reassuring. My ordeal at least was a non-issue at the end of the day. I am glad I caught it though!
 
Still, use the fuel pump as indicated in the POH. The one time I forgot all the way up to about 500 feet was the one time I saw a small but noticeable bump in wear metals. Maybe it was just a coincidence, but I certainly adjusted my pre-takeoff flow after that.
 
I have a Dakota and I can confirm that without the electric fuel pump turned on during takeoff, a low fuel pressure warning is triggered on my JPI EDM 900. I've done it twice--turning the electric pump on when that happens corrects the issue. The engine never stuttered or anything when the pressure was low, so fuel was flowing.
 
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