Fuel onboard during emergencies: gals/lbs or time?

Pi1otguy

Pi1otguy

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We all know that if we declare, there's a good chance we'll be asked number of souls and fuel onboard. Is there a general rule on when they want fuel in gal/lbs vs time?

Watching a number emergencies on YouTube, I've noticed the pilot often gives fuel in the wrong format when ATC doesn't specify. (I.e. saying "...souls and fuel on board?" vs "...souls and fuel in pounds?")
 
Why not both? ATC probably cares about time, I.e. how long can we keep this guy up there if absolutely needed? The airport probably cares about lbs/gals from a firefighting perspective.
 
The reason they ask is to relay to the crash response (Firefighters). That’s why they want lbs…..‘Cuz lbs of fuel is all Firefighters are taught.
 
Fearless Tower said:
The reason they ask is to relay to the crash response (Firefighters). That’s why they want lbs…..‘Cuz lbs of fuel is all Firefighters are taught.
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Never had it happen when I was in the fire department and we would assume the thing was full and ready to burst into flames anyhow.
 
Pi1otguy said:
We all know that if we declare, there's a good chance we'll be asked number of souls and fuel onboard. Is there a general rule on when they want fuel in gal/lbs vs time?

Watching a number emergencies on YouTube, I've noticed the pilot often gives fuel in the wrong format when ATC doesn't specify. (I.e. saying "...souls and fuel on board?" vs "...souls and fuel in pounds?")
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They should’ve asked in “time” vs “gallons / pounds.”

2B62CD28-31D0-4F6B-83CF-C7958B30641A.jpeg
 
Like said above, time is what ATC cares about. I've often heard big iron pilots report in pounds. You just ask for time and they give it to you. I remember a couple times crash crew asking for pounds. I suppose someday the question is going to be time or kilowatts:goofy:
 
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When we had an engine failure, ATC asked us for #souls and fuel. We gave them gallons and they were satisfied.
After coming to a stop in the middle of US100 the firefighters that arrived minutes later asked how much fuel. I told them about 30 gallons and they then said they need to know in pounds. I had to do the arithmetic for them.
 
They asked me for "fuel aboard in minutes". I told him "three hours" and hoped he knew the conversion factor :rolleyes: I still find it odd he asked for it specifically in minutes. I assume that was his way of keeping me from giving it in gallons.
 
I'd always give it in time. Even in the unlikely event that the controller happened to know the fuel burn for a 1979 PA-28-161, they wouldn't know what power setting I was using, whether I was flying LOP or ROP, etc. etc. Volume or weight is meaningless.
 
"Somewhere between empty and full"
 
luvflyin said:
Like said above, time is what ATC cares about. I've often heard big iron pilots report in pounds. You just ask for time and they give it to you. I remember a couple times crash crew asking for pounds. I suppose someday the question is going to be time or kilowatts:goofy:
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Kilowatt-hours is the correct unit of energy.
 
Report in US dollars, ie. $40. After all passengers can be replaced for free.
 
AKiss20 said:
More correctly, Joules :p

1 kWHr = 3,600,000 J
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Sure, but battery capacity is commonly recorded in kWh - or at least amp-hours, which then crudely converts to kWh. Of course you never really know how much power is left in the battery until you drain it all. Kinda like schrodinger's cat. You can't know how much longer you can really fly until the battery is drained, at which point, you can't go back and recalculate. Too cold, too fast, too hot, bad charge cycle, etc.
 
Responses should be “a lot” or “a little”. I mean when they relay the info over to fire, do they have different trucks based on amount of fuel?

ATC: they have a lot of fuel
FIRE: let’s bring the big truck
ATC: no wait, they only have a little
FIRE: guys, grab a coupl’a fire extinguishers
 
Matthew Rogers said:
Sure, but battery capacity is commonly recorded in kWh - or at least amp-hours, which then crudely converts to kWh. Of course you never really know how much power is left in the battery until you drain it all. Kinda like schrodinger's cat. You can't know how much longer you can really fly until the battery is drained, at which point, you can't go back and recalculate. Too cold, too fast, too hot, bad charge cycle, etc.
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yes I know, I was just being cheeky.

Whoever decided that amp-hour is an appropriate measure of battery capacity for consumer electronics needs to be smacked. It’s a useless quantity to compare batteries as voltage can vary significantly, even in the consumer electronic space.
 
Jim K said:
They asked me for "fuel aboard in minutes". I told him "three hours" and hoped he knew the conversion factor :rolleyes: I still find it odd he asked for it specifically in minutes. I assume that was his way of keeping me from giving it in gallons.
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It is to get it in time instead of weight. A lot of the big iron guys tend to give it pounds, so minutes is what they ask for often. I can’t recall ever getting it in just minutes when it’s an hour or more. Always hours and minutes. But now that ya got me thinking I’m gonna do the total minutes thing if it ever happens to me just to be a wise guy. Unless I’m scared sheetless and can’t do the math.
 
eman1200 said:
Responses should be “a lot” or “a little”. I mean when they relay the info over to fire, do they have different trucks based on amount of fuel?

ATC: they have a lot of fuel
FIRE: let’s bring the big truck
ATC: no wait, they only have a little
FIRE: guys, grab a coupl’a fire extinguishers
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ATC: he’s outta gas
FIRE: _________________ (fill in the blank)
 
AKiss20 said:
yes I know, I was just being cheeky.

Whoever decided that amp-hour is an appropriate measure of battery capacity for consumer electronics needs to be zapped. It’s a useless quantity to compare batteries as voltage can vary significantly, even in the consumer electronic space.
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FTFY

 
Really? Whatever. Who cares? Certainly not me in an emergency.

If I have a number handy because I have a totalizer display I give them a number. Time or gallons, whichever I notice first. If not, I'll give an estimate which might be one or the other depending on what's easiest for me at the time.

If the want it the other way, let them do the conversion.

@eman1200 already gave the correct answer.
 
AKiss20 said:
How is ATC supposed to know your aircraft's fuel burn?
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I. Don't. Care.

I am handling an emergency. My priority is getting on the ground with as little damage to human beings as I can. If I can answer their question with a glance or guestimate off the top of my head, I will. If not, I won't.
 
For me the options are 1-6 hours, and the amount of time I fly with 2 or less is rare. So that leaves 3-6 hours so no matter what I tell them I won’t be too far off. It’ll also be the absolute lowest priority out of everything going on should I be in that situation. I think I have it in my mind that 4 will be my canned response unless I’m positive it’s otherwise.
 
Airport CFR response is measured in seconds if they want to be effective (I believe the standard is to be at the scene and throwing foam within 30 seconds). They're not going to waste time inquiring or computing fuel quantity. They're rolling everything.
 
This is obviously a "first world problem".
Me, in Cub: "One. No freakin' idea".
At 1.75 hours that plane is on the ground because at 1.80 hours I'm walking home.
 
Shepherd said:
This is obviously a "first world problem".
Me, in Cub: "One. No freakin' idea".
At 1.75 hours that plane is on the ground because at 1.80 hours I'm walking home.
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Got me beat by .25 hours, restroom break... :eek:
 
flyingron said:
Airport CFR response is measured in seconds if they want to be effective (I believe the standard is to be at the scene and throwing foam within 30 seconds). They're not going to waste time inquiring or computing fuel quantity. They're rolling everything.
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The SIAI-Marchetti accident in Idaho recently was a good example of how quick CFR responds. :rolleyes: :eek:
 
Doc Holliday said:
The SIAI-Marchetti accident in Idaho recently was a good example of how quick CFR responds. :rolleyes: :eek:
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The firefighters aren't sitting in their truck 24/7 all suited up. They are hanging out in the fire station with the suits ready (probably hanging in the cab) and the engine prepped and ready to roll. From the first bell, it will take a few (probably <5) minutes to roll the engine. Add that to the delay in getting the call and whatever transport time is involved, and in any surprise accident, the outcome will be decided before they arrive.

With prior notice, things are different, but that isn't usually the case.
 
. From the first bell, it will take a few (probably <5) minutes to roll the engine.
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Not true. That's not even a standard for your rural volunteer fire department. Back when I was in a mixed career/volly county, if anybody didn't respond on the road in 3 minutes, another engine was dispatched. If you regularly missed the response time, they "dual dispatched" you going forward.

NFPA 403 places the response time to the first-arriving ARFF vehicle to three minutes from time of alarm until they arrive at any runway point and start applying that agent. To achieve those times, they need to be rolling within 30 seconds at most airports.
 
Since I enter time on my flight plan, switch my tanks every hour in flight, and monitor how much time I have until empty, I’ll reply with time.
 
flyingron said:
Not true. That's not even a standard for your rural volunteer fire department. Back when I was in a mixed career/volly county, if anybody didn't respond on the road in 3 minutes, another engine was dispatched. If you regularly missed the response time, they "dual dispatched" you going forward.

NFPA 403 places the response time to the first-arriving ARFF vehicle to three minutes from time of alarm until they arrive at any runway point and start applying that agent. To achieve those times, they need to be rolling within 30 seconds at most airports.
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So I wrote <5 and you claim that’s not true, but offer up 3? Jesus Christ. Try not to be an ass.
 
I'm pretty sure the SWA capt (Tammie Jo?)....the one with the engine failure & rapid decompression, in which a pax was half-sucked out said that ATC worsened their helmet fire by asking such questions - and there was mental arithmetic required to figure out lbs vs time remaining during their emergency descent.
I would like to see guidance to ATC during emergencies changed to urgent/truly helpful information only, or information the pilot requests.....and eliminate questions. I would like to see an absolute minimum of chatter. Where is the nearest airport, where is the nearest vfr airport, obstruction hazards as you descend, vectors to the runway. No need to say I'm declaring an emergency for you, I'm rolling the equipment - just do it and we'll find out later.
After reading so many events where the pilot's headset was causing pain and distraction I said in my emergency I was either going to tell atc to can it for a while, or shut the radio off
But I have an unusual sensitivity to anything auditory compared to most.
 
kyleb said:
The firefighters aren't sitting in their truck 24/7 all suited up. They are hanging out in the fire station with the suits ready (probably hanging in the cab) and the engine prepped and ready to roll. From the first bell, it will take a few (probably <5) minutes to roll the engine. Add that to the delay in getting the call and whatever transport time is involved, and in any surprise accident, the outcome will be decided before they arrive.

With prior notice, things are different, but that isn't usually the case.
Click to expand...
 
flyingron said:
Not true. That's not even a standard for your rural volunteer fire department. Back when I was in a mixed career/volly county, if anybody didn't respond on the road in 3 minutes, another engine was dispatched. If you regularly missed the response time, they "dual dispatched" you going forward.

NFPA 403 places the response time to the first-arriving ARFF vehicle to three minutes from time of alarm until they arrive at any runway point and start applying that agent. To achieve those times, they need to be rolling within 30 seconds at most airports.
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I believe that's only true for airports with scheduled air carrier ops. Most GA airports are going to be covered by the local municipal or rural department. A lot of them are several miles from the city, so even if the city has full time FF's on staff, the drive time will take about as long as it takes an airplane to burn up.

In my neighborhood, if we can get two guys and a truck out the door in 5 minutes we're doing dang good. I live 5 miles from the station, so if it's just me and one other, it's going to be closer to 10. Not unusual for rural departments to not have any response at all during the day when everyone's at work. Re-tone after about 2 minutes, 2 more minutes to tone mutual aid, then 5 minutes for those guys to drop what they're doing and drive to the station.

A lot of our departments have formed agreements to automatically dispatch mutual aid because volunteerism is so low. If any of you live in an area covered by a volunteer department and are fit enough to fly airplanes, I guarantee your fire department would love to have you.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
I'm pretty sure the SWA capt (Tammie Jo?)....the one with the engine failure & rapid decompression, in which a pax was half-sucked out said that ATC worsened their helmet fire by asking such questions - and there was mental arithmetic required to figure out lbs vs time remaining during their emergency descent.
I would like to see guidance to ATC during emergencies changed to urgent/truly helpful information only, or information the pilot requests.....and eliminate questions. I would like to see an absolute minimum of chatter. Where is the nearest airport, where is the nearest vfr airport, obstruction hazards as you descend, vectors to the runway. No need to say I'm declaring an emergency for you, I'm rolling the equipment - just do it and we'll find out later.
After reading so many events where the pilot's headset was causing pain and distraction I said in my emergency I was either going to tell atc to can it for a while, or shut the radio off
But I have an unusual sensitivity to anything auditory compared to most.
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The PIC can always say “Standby”, or “I can’t get that right now”, or “I’m too busy”.

Nothing is imperative to answer ATC’s question.
 
It's airports that have an on-field CFR department

As I stated, even volunteer departments in progressive areas have three minute alarm to fully staffed truck on the road requirements of three minutes. Since I worked nights, I spent a lot of time providing daytime coverage for our department. Between me and my driver (another night worker) we got our company off medic unit dual dispatch.
 
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