Not to mention that when you're holding short waiting to take off, planes on the surface a quarter-to-half-mile away can be hard to see.
Frequency change when departing D
- Thread starter zaitcev
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Love instructors who decide they know better than the FAA.
PaulS
Touchdown! Greaser!
Clear runway 29 is even better. Made the mistake of saying clear the active at a non towered field with my instructor, he said, they are all active.
idahoflier
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idahoflier
It's not and everyone else in the traffic pattern is using 122.7...
idahoflier
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idahoflier
Yeah, it's a local thing. 122.7 is the CTAF for KMAN and KEUL which are relatively close together. At times there's a fair bit of traffic at both airports doing T&G's...
While I have done so out of habit, it really serves no purpose. The only pilot who would care is someone following on final, and he would see if you didn't. It's not like someone would go 'OMG, I have to go around because the last plane didnt announce clearing the runway !!!' The only thing it may do is to block out a transmission that may be of safety benefit, e.g. someone entering the pattern.
The only thing less useful are the folks who provide progressive narration of their taxi to the runway. There are limited times when taxi announcements make sense (one in one out taxiways with obscured line of sight), but on a wide open taxiway it is just idle blabber.
I appreciate it when I am waiting to take off, because it can be difficult to see an airplane on the surface when I'm holding short.
Probably because that is multicomm where there is not a unicom. Many of the backcountry strips use it in Idaho and Montana.
Lowflynjack
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Jack Fleetwood
He was old-school, he flew when there was a CAA. Instructors teach us, but we keep learning afterward. Like I said, I don't follow his guidance on this one. But, man, could he fly a plane!
However, we've all had the conversation about proper radio procedures here. I think most instructors don't follow the FAA recommendations for radio calls and most of them add calls. For example, for inbound calls, I was taught call 10 miles out, maybe 5 miles out, 45 to downwind, downwind, base, final, and clear of the runway (all but one of my instructors!). The FAA recommends 10 miles out, downwind, base, final, and clear of the runway. I think a lot of us agree in our slow planes, a lot of time elapses from 10 miles out to downwind. I will almost always add 5 miles out, or say I'm on a 5-mile 45, etc. I think it's safer.
Nothing says you can't make more than the "recommended" calls. Silly not to make the ones the FAA felt strongly enough to put in the AIM.
idahoflier
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idahoflier
Yes, I would say the majority of the airports in Idaho use 122.9, however when there is a published CTAF, pilots need to use it because no one else in the traffic pattern can hear them...
Lachlan
En-Route
What if- GOD FORBID!- someone is legally flying around NORDO? Oh ta the no!!!
KaiGywer
Line Up and Wait
timwinters
Ejection Handle Pulled
As @Palmpilot said, if you're waiting to take off, it can be of great assistance. I've been based at numerous airports that have a hump in the middle of the runway and you can't see the opposite end. The latest was H88, Fredericktown, MO. Still have a hangar there.
I've been at others that have a dip in the middle that airplanes disappear into.
Making a "clear all runways" call at many airfields serves a very useful purpose.
No problem. There's a difference between being one of the few who doesn't have a radio and having a radio but electing to remain silent or use it improperly.
Hank S
En-Route
There is? How can I tell? Seems like the effect on ither planes is the same.
The only difference is inside the head of the equipped-but-silent pilot. One silent plane is just like another silent plane, whether it doesn't have a radio, doesn't use its radio, or is tuned to the wring frequency. Yes, I've shared the pattern with NORDO planes, from Kitfox to Mooneys.
There's no requirement to talk on the radio . . . . And the first rule for VFR flight is "see and avoid;" it doesn't mention anything about "hearing."
Agreed, the few airports with a obscured line of sight AND an aircraft waiting for takeoff it may be helpful.
Even on a perfectly flat airport, ground clutter can interfere with determining the location of a plane on the surface a quarter-mile away when you're holding short.
While I am holding short, I don't care whether he is still on the runway. Once he passes I line up behind him. With the exception of the rare 'humped' runway I should see the 1500ft in front of me that I need for takeoff. If he is 8000ft down I don't care all that much whether his tailfeathers still hang over the hold short line.
I don't feel safe lining up and waiting at a non-towered field. Consequently, I avoid entering the runway until either I see that he is clear or he reports clear. I would agree that his tail hanging over the hold short line is not a problem for small aircraft at non-towered fields when the runway is sufficiently wide.
I believe the issue was whether there are pilots who benefit from clear-of-the-runway reports, not whether they benefit every pilot.
idahoflier
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idahoflier
Oooh! Burn!!! ;-p Seriously though, if you can’t see a safety issue with a pilot in a busy traffic pattern xmitting and listening on the wrong frequency when they THINK they’re on the correct frequency, well then... You have a great day...
Exactly.
Lachlan
En-Route
Thanks, I will. All day, every day, in fact. I live my own life and don’t try to tell others how to live theirs. It’s very liberating. Try to develop the strength to accept the things you cannot change. Don’t let others dictate your happiness.
So long as you can change a post attribution, eh?Thanks, I will. All day, every day, in fact. I live my own life and don’t try to tell others how to live theirs. It’s very liberating. Try to develop the strength to accept the things you cannot change. Don’t let others dictate your happiness.
I don't believe there is a requirement the runway be totally clear before landing. On our 8500' runway if someone goes full lenth I can be to my hangar before he finishes the taxi to the ramp.
I was talking about taking off, not landing.
Sorry missed that. But even taking off is there any requirment for a totally clear rwy? And I mean reg not common sense.
I don't know, but the issue I was addressing was whether the "clear of the runway" report provides a benefit, and there doesn't have to be a reg for there to be a benefit.
Kenny Phillips
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Kenny Phillips
If you are legally flying NORDO, and cause an accident because of that ... well, we know that has occurred. I personally would make radios and the use of CTAF mandatory at all public airports. Yeah, I learned to fly at a congested and towered airport under the veil of B airspace, but even in the middle of nowhere, it makes much more sense than merely "see and avoid".
Nice to hear you'd like to see a whole bunch of pilots who choose gliders and airplanes without electric power grounded.
Dang. I hope I'm never in a white Cessna in front of you. That sounds like bad luck for that person.
Kenny Phillips
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Kenny Phillips
Not at all. We now have these things called "cheap portable radios". I've had one for a couple of decades (maybe I should get a newer one.) They are very inexpensive (about an hour's worth of 172 time, maybe less used), and they are safety devices that can be used for other purposes besides calling position in the pattern. There's generally not an issue with gliders in the traffic pattern at most airports, but I do know of at least one glider pilot who has a portable radio. ("Hey, come get me, I've landed out ...")
I should have said "publicly owned airport", as I know of more than one private strip that welcomes visitors. And, hey, some of them require radios.
And, as mentioned, if you spear someone and you were the NORDO pilot, it won't likely end well, even if you survive. "See and avoid" has failed, or we'd have fewer mid-airs and incursions. And, yes, I've been very, very close to a NORDO that made his base right inside of me. Rather a shock when they show up in your screen. He departed the area as soon as he saw what he'd done.
Shawn
En-Route
Ever hear of a Handheld?
And yes, I agree...if you operate from a public airfield coms should be required.
Lachlan
En-Route
And I think that if you operate from a grass field that a taildragger with giant tires up front should be required. How about "coms should be encouraged" instead of your blanket exclusionary mandate?
*Unless an airplane has a wired external antenna, the range of a handheld operated inside an airborne craft is notably decreased compared to a panel mounted aviation radio, and the transmissions from handhelds can be more confusing and unintelligible than it is worth. This is not 100% true 100% of the time, rather, most of the time. {Dependent on aircraft type, construction, altitude, etc.}
denverpilot
Tied Down
Pffft. A requirement is silly at all sorts of public airports. Some see a single aircraft per day. Or even none at all. Some guy doing laps in a radio-less Cub isn’t harming anyone.
Dave S.
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thetexan
The unwritten rule is this....never, ever, ever, NEVER, ever, forever, under no circumstances, EVER!!!!!!! Change freqs without being told! (Did I mention EVER NEVER?). If ATC is providing you services then stay on their freq until you are told to change or until they no longer provide the service. Even thenyou should coordinate the change. That’s the rule...now here’s the exception...
As it pertains to class D...the only reason you are in the Class D freq is that you are required by reg to do so. That requirement only applies in the class D. When you have left the Class D the requirement disappears. At that point no reg compels you to be on freq. the only reason you would would be to exercise the etiquette of politely ending the conversation by requesting freq change (though there is no requirement to do so) or that services are continuing such as radar services delivered either by the tower or subsequent approach facility. In this case follow the above rule.
If you are supposed to go over to departure after departure and tower doesn’t change you over (which they’re supposed to do) NEVER change on your own. Challenge the tower for the change because they either forgot you or need you on freq for some reason.
Many ATC problems are due to pilots who have changed freq on their own when they shouldn’t have.
That said, when you have left the Class D and you are now in simple E or G airspace you have no reason to stay on freq and need no permission to change unless any of the above applies.
tex
zaitcev
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Pete Zaitcev
Man, I'm sure glad that people like you are not in charge, at least not yet. I once flew from New York to Texas NORDO, because the headset that I had available turned out to be incompatible with the radio. What was I supposed to do? Land in pastures and refuel from Citgo?
Some airports require radio even today. KLAM is one, because of its one-way nature (departures and arrivals always go head-on and need a way to deconflict).
denverpilot
Tied Down
There’s another exception and probably more but this one going the opposite direction comes to mind ...
If you’re on Flight Following, can’t get a word in edgewise, and about to fly into Delta, you’re better off just switching. If you can get off a “[callsign] request frequency change” great, but I’ve been forgotten about a couple of times by a busy approach controller VFR and had to switch.
Like you said, the Delta contact is required by law. Flight Following isn’t.
I’m not circling in place to wait for a gap in the approach controller’s radio traffic, they’re expecting me to go to Tower and I’m going.
If the Tower’s not busy, I’ll let them know I had to leave the approach frequency to call them and they can let approach know on the land line that they’ve got me, but the approach controller can already see that I’m inside the Delta anyway.
Yeah, having been in aircraft with only a handheld, I know how useless they can be for good two-way communications. Decent for receiving, not so great for transmitting.And I think that if you operate from a grass field that a taildragger with giant tires up front should be required. How about "coms should be encouraged" instead of your blanket exclusionary mandate?
*Unless an airplane has a wired external antenna, the range of a handheld operated inside an airborne craft is notably decreased compared to a panel mounted aviation radio, and the transmissions from handhelds can be more confusing and unintelligible than it is worth. This is not 100% true 100% of the time, rather, most of the time. {Dependent on aircraft type, construction, altitude, etc.}
But some folks just like to make rules for others whether they are needed or not.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Psychologically the less free someone feels, that’s usually when they think more rules for everyone else is the answer to their personal problem.
Usually more rules simply means more bad side effects.
It’s kinda like the estimates that average computer coders introduce three bugs for every bug they fix in complex software. Fix it until it’s completely broken and then re-write it, wasn’t started first in computing, it was started in law.