France bans some short-haul domestic flights

GRG55

GRG55

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I missed this news item earlier this week, and didn't find another thread about it when I did a keyword search. Apologies if someone else already posted it.

Interesting development on the carbon reduction front, with wider ranging implications in western Europe and elsewhere.

Interestingly, the Canadian government announced a COVID related financial assistance package for Montreal headquartered Air Canada last week. This was the first support for an airline in Canada since COVID started. Part of that negotiation was the explicit requirement for Air Canada to restore service on a number of shorter domestic routes to smaller centers that had been earlier cut as a cost saving measure after the COVID lockdowns began last year.

I will confess that when I lived in London between 2004 and 2008, and wanted to make a trip to Paris, I found the EuroStar train an infinitely more civilized way to travel compared to the airlines.

https://www.airport-technology.com/features/france-bans-short-haul-flight-industry-reacts/

France bans short-haul flights: Industry reacts
14 Apr 2021 (Last Updated April 14th, 2021 17:15)

...The French Government has banned short-haul internal flights when rail alternatives could cover the journey in 2h30 or less.

The bill, which was voted in the French Parliament on 10 April, will only apply to a handful of routes, such as those between Paris and Nantes, and Lyon and Bordeaux. Connecting flights are excluded.

Aiming to cut down France’s CO2 emission levels of 1990 by 40%, the measure – which needs to be approved at the Senate level – was applauded by President Macron’s party LaREM.

“We are engaging in a profound transformation of the aviation sector,” read a tweet from LaREM MPs. “Favouring the train or other means of public transport for short distances is common sense and a key gesture for the climate.”...

...Industry Minister Agnes Pannerier-Runacher responded to comments during an interview with European radio Europe 1. “We know that aviation is a contributor of carbon dioxide and that because of climate change we must reduce emissions,” Reuters reported that she said. “Equally, we must support our companies and not let them fall by the wayside.”

To help support the industry, France recently granted €4bn for the recapitalisation of Air France, after previously allocating €7bn to the carrier to help weather the Covid-19 pandemic.
​
 
Typical...also to punish the UK for not wanting to subsidize the French owned Eurostar...don’t get me wrong I like Eurostar and have used them several times to Paris and Brussels it’s a nice comfortable way to go but I can remember once my two hour Brussels to London turned into eight when a migrant received a Darwin Award for playing on the tracks.
 
GRG55 said:
I will confess that when I lived in London between 2004 and 2008, and wanted to make a trip to Paris, I found the EuroStar train an infinitely more civilized way to travel compared to the airlines.
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Agree, pretty much any domestic route on the SNCF is much faster, less stressful, and less expensive than flying. Anything that can be done to avoid CDG and Air France is good in my book.
 
Hoewever car travel creates substantially more emissions than commercial flights. At least in the US. Check out DOT stats.
 
murphey said:
Hoewever car travel creates substantially more emissions than commercial flights. At least in the US. Check out DOT stats.
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These kinds of measurements of carbon footprint are fraught with difficulty.

Comparing just the type and amount of fuel burned per "passenger mile" or something like that is probably the easiest part, but a bit superficial.

Every form of transportation requires other things to support it, from asphalt roads, concrete runways, steel rails, metal housings for the passengers (car, rail carriage, airframe), some source of motive energy consumption...and on it goes.

The other risk I see here is if the short haul air travel infrastructure is removed it may set back alternate, lower carbon emitting forms of air travel development. The first electric, or whatever alternate, airplanes are almost certainly going to need to be applied to short haul routes initially.
 
Traveling between cities in Europe, I found the trains fast and efficient. The only minor problem I had was stowing a suitcase. Some trains had stowage, others didn't. Likewise in China, moving between Shanghai, Suzhou, and Nanjing, and between Hong Kong and Shenzhen and was quite easy; actually easier for me than the locals since the stations had a special line for foreigners. Each country in Europe is the size of an USA state. It was overall faster than flying, actually.

Cities are a bit more distant here, we need domestic flights.
 
Whenever I hear something like this, I just think “That’s so France.”

With that said, I really don’t understand why anyone would fly commercially between cities like that. The trains in Europe are fantastic and a much better way to travel in my experience. France (and Europe in general) is just not very large and not nearly as spread out as we are here.
 
But don't they need a backup for when the French train workers go on strike (or vis versa)
 
ColoPilot said:
But don't they need a backup for when the French train workers go on strike (or vis versa)
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Airline workers go on strike as much as the train/bus people. And usually strikes over there aren't like strikes over here. They don't usually totally shut down, just reduce service like only running every third train. Also, it's usually just random days and announced ahead of time so people can plan around it. It's causes an inconvenience and it's a PITA, much much less likely to P.O. the public and they get their point across.
 
Sluggo63 said:
Airline workers go on strike as much as the train/bus people. And usually strikes over there aren't like strikes over here. They don't usually totally shut down, just reduce service like only running every third train. Also, it's usually just random days and announced ahead of time so people can plan around it. It's causes an inconvenience and it's a PITA, much much less likely to P.O. the public and they get their point across.
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Years ago, when I was living in London, I got caught in one of these at Nice. I was trying to get back to the UK on an EasyJet flight after a weekend visit with a friend in France. France's college students had been striking, yet again, over some issue or another (tuition? free croissants? who knows...) and the air traffic controllers decided to show sympathy by reducing service. Air France flights were unaffected, but all non-domestic carriers were restricted and disrupted in French air space.

Being Nice it was a bit of a holiday atmosphere at the airport where we were lined up trying to rebook alternate routes. Nobody really got upset ("It's France :dunno:") and I met some interesting travellers from all over the world that afternoon.

As you note, the air traffic controllers didn't totally shut down the system. I eventually got on a flight to Liverpool, and after two trains from there arrived at my flat in Central London in the early morning hours. I do recall the "last mile" black taxi ride from Paddington to my apartment cost more than a one-way EasyJet ticket to the south of France. :frown2:

Ted said:
“it’s like a Beaujolais Neuveau - starts off bad and gets steadily worse with age.”
-Jeremy Clarkson
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Love that! I am going to shamelessly plagiarize it.

Unfortunately, I do have an unhealthy penchant for Bordeaux reds, particularly Margaux.

Another friend of mine is the son of a US diplomat that was posted to France when my friend was young. When they were transferred back to D.C. he tells the story of his parents hosting a neighbourhood party and being asked about their time overseas. His mother's response was "Ah, the French. They have the most beautiful landscapes, an incredibly rich history, the most wonderful food, the best wines and the language of love. And they don't deserve any of it." :)
 
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So, do you think the politicians considered what is going to happen for people traveling to/from France from other destinations. My wife is French, so we go every year or two to France to visit friends and family spread around the country (mostly the north eastern part where we go by train); we normally bounce through Paris and spend a couple nights there on each end of the trip. Due to going for the cheapest airfare, we have bounced through other large cities, London, Frankfurt, Madrid... When this law comes into play, I doubt we will bookend our trip with Paris again. It will be whatever is the cheapest large city we fly into.
The result I think is the potential for a real loss of vacation travelers as it makes travel connections much harder.

Tim
 
sourdough44 said:
Notice how Russia, China, & India never do this stuff??
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Probably not a comparison you want to make. There are very few routes in Russia that would qualify as “short haul” and China and India have some of the worst air quality in the world.
 
tspear said:
So, do you think the politicians considered what is going to happen for people traveling to/from France from other destinations. My wife is French, so we go every year or two to France to visit friends and family spread around the country (mostly the north eastern part where we go by train); we normally bounce through Paris and spend a couple nights there on each end of the trip. Due to going for the cheapest airfare, we have bounced through other large cities, London, Frankfurt, Madrid... When this law comes into play, I doubt we will bookend our trip with Paris again. It will be whatever is the cheapest large city we fly into.
The result I think is the potential for a real loss of vacation travelers as it makes travel connections much harder.

Tim
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Unless I’m missing something, I don’t understand how this would change anything you would have planned. They’re just curtailing short, intra-France flights. Like if you flew JFK-CDG then connect with the TGV to Nancy instead of HOP!. The TGV station is at CDG and easy to get to.
 
Sluggo63 said:
Unless I’m missing something, I don’t understand how this would change anything you would have planned. They’re just curtailing short, intra-France flights. Like if you flew JFK-CDG then connect with the TGV to Nancy instead of HOP!. The TGV station is at CDG and easy to get to.
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Rarely fly into CDG, Orly is more often if indirect. Often actually connect through London and Frankfurt for cheaper flights. Having a connecting train after an international flight, we have missed the connection multiple time due to unexpected lines at Customs (we have a minimum of 2 hours and it is often not enough, we schedule four later and got through in 30 minutes). I have found that connecting flights, even through Customs are more likely to connect than switching to trains. So now, we fly into Paris (either airport), stay a couple days then catch a train.
If you talk to travel agents to arrange the trips, they will give the same advice.
Train prices are pretty much a wash no water where you start. So the result is we will go to the city with the cheapest direct pair or cheapest connection to be close of Strasbourg and bookend the trip there. It will probably not be in France, especially Paris. Oh well. I will just have to see more of Europe....

Tim
 
It is my understanding that you can still fly if it is part of a connection, i.e. you can still fly Boston-Paris-Lyon, or whatever.
 
Groundpounder said:
It is my understanding that you can still fly if it is part of a connection, i.e. you can still fly Boston-Paris-Lyon, or whatever.
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That's what I saw as well. Not sure how that reduces CO2 emissions very much as most of the people flying those short flights were likely already connecting. The train trip would have been more attractive to non-connecting travelers already.
 
Cervieres said:
Probably not a comparison you want to make. There are very few routes in Russia that would qualify as “short haul” and China and India have some of the worst air quality in the world.
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Not really talking about restricting short flights, but more so all the hamstringing on the board for the USA.
 
Cervieres said:
Probably not a comparison you want to make. There are very few routes in Russia that would qualify as “short haul” and China and India have some of the worst air quality in the world.
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China has made great strides clearing the air, the last couple of times I was there the end of 2019. The difference from 2017 was quite impressive!
 
I’ve been to China more times than I can count. Was there right before the world shut down

The air there isn’t any better, and in some places worse. You can literally taste the air.

I’ve been to Shanghai probably 50 times and have only seen the top of the worlds second largest building twice. Right after typhoons blew in to blow away the pollution. This past winter the pollution was so bad they turned off the heat to government owned buildings to try to reduce the electricity demand.

And all those electric trains in China? Fueled by coal power plants. In France it’s almost all nuclear.
 
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