Fooling Mr. Hobbs

[ircphoenix]

I think you have this backwards....

Tach runs slower than Hobbs. So if Hobbs runs 20% faster than the Tach, you can charge "less" for the Hobbs than you'd be able to charge for the equivalent tach time.

So if the Hobbs rate is 100 an hour... for 1 hobbs hour, a tach hour would be .8 ish. So to get your 100 bucks for the same tach time, you'd have to charge $125/hr tach time.

If he feels better because he's paying a higher rate for a slower clock instead of a lower rate for a faster clock, that's his business, I guess... but I don't know many operations that aren't going to know that the tach runs slower, and adjust their prices accordingly.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

That's a cost of doing business. You bake that in to your rental rate -- you don't try to charge a kid another tenth or extra he didn't fly. That's just being cheap and it's bad, unexpected business.

Furthermore how is getting to log time that wasn't flown helping anyone learn.

I think you're doing it wrong and wouldn't rent from you.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

Every school I did any training for all of my ratings had the hobbs come on as soon as you hit the master switch.

Lol and I'm cheap haha. Every student I have ever had come through my flight school I have personally given at least at the minimum $150 on account in free flight time some have gotten $250 and $300 just as a thanks for choosing us. You name me another flight school in the country that does that just for the hell of it. Or sometime I'll give them free books free supplies whatever. I know and understand that it's tough to be a student and that money is tight for a lot of them which is why I do everything in my power to save them as much as possible during their training.

Student has a checkride and passes sometimes I'll comp the flight time
Student has a checkride and fails at times I'll comp the airplane.

Student has a bad day flying and cut the fight short sometimes I'll comp the flight.

Name me one other flight school that does that....

You can't.

I don't do it as giveaways or they have to earn it if I'm in a good mood and I see students sometimes I give them money on their account just for being customers. Couple that with the fact that I run one of the least expensive flight training schools in Southern California.

I also have a 501c3 nonprofit that provides 100% free Flight Training to US veterans. Yeah I'm real cheap.

Not one of our students have ever complained and I doubt you would either.

If you were sitting in my lobby one day and I walked in and I said hey bud how you doing today and you replied that you got into a minor fender-bender that morning and then I smiled and said hey I'm going to put some cash on your account thanks for flying with us I appreciate you bet you wouldn't be complaining about the hobbs then. That's actually something I just did this morning when a student had to cancel a flight due to a minor car accident. ( just for clarification purposes the event this morning was via the phone the student was not in my Lobby)

I think you have cheap and me confused with somebody else.
try again pal

I would not rent a plane that charged from master being turned on. Period. I don't care how much free stuff you give away. I operate a helicopter that runs around 1k per hour in DOC. It only bills when the collective is pulled. Sitting on the ground running at full rpm is not billable. That's industry standard. In fact if you get caught running Hobbs on anything other than collective for a government contract you'll get fired.

I'm not saying youre are a bad person I'm just saying I wouldn't rent your airplane because its billing me when it should not. Your relay, cooling fan and radio logic doesn't hold water

 

[fiveoboy01]

I wouldn't rent off master switch hobbs either.

"the gyros spin" and "the flap mechanism gets worn out" are silly arguments considering the only gyro spinning is the TC and the flap mechanisms aren't going to really wear if the flaps are deployed at zero airspeed. Mic switches and bulbs? More silliness.

I agree that as long as it's advertised that way, it's an ok way to do it, but I'd rent elsewhere also.

 

[Palmpilot]

The cost of keeping an engine in operable condition, plus the cost of fuel and oil, are certainly the lion's share of the operating expenses, I think.

 

[Velocity173]

I would not rent a plane that charged from master being turned on. Period. I don't care how much free stuff you give away. I operate a helicopter that runs around 1k per hour in DOC. It only bills when the collective is pulled. Sitting on the ground running at full rpm is not billable. That's industry standard. In fact if you get caught running Hobbs on anything other than collective for a government contract you'll get fired.

I'm not saying youre are a bad person I'm just saying I wouldn't rent your airplane because its billing me when it should not. Your relay, cooling fan and radio logic doesn't hold water

Yours off of the collective or is it weight on gear (WOG) switch?

 

[Thomas R.]

To each their own. Looks like you wouldn't be renting almost anywhere in SoCal based on that out look.

Better go join a club and share a plane.

Interesting you mention government contracts because I ran the flight training program for a local community college here with 4 aircraft they owned. All 4 of their government-owned (community college) aircraft that provided training to government (VA) students and public non-VA students each had Hobbs meters that started with the master switch I guess I should report them. And I guess each and every one of those students hours would not all be valid maybe what you're suggesting is they should run everything off the tach and the same will go for students flight time.

I suppose the two other 141 operators on my field who's Hobbs meter start on the master are also in violation of their training agreements with the Department of Veterans Affairs.

Luckily I don't have to deal with that kind of bureaucracy interfering with my operation so I'm in the clear. If people choose not to fly with us based on that they're more than welcome to go across the way and pay 20 to $30 an hour more for the same plane (while still paying for hobbs meters that turn on with the master) and with instructors that like to do ground lessons in the plains with the plane running it makes no difference to me our students are perfectly happy.

If someone doesn't want to fly here they don't have to I'm not holding a gun to anybody's head and we are perfectly busy in fact people are very thankful that we are so affordable.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

To each their own. Looks like you wouldn't be renting almost anywhere in SoCal based on that out look.

Better go join a club and share a plane.

Interesting you mention government contracts because I ran the flight training program for a local community college here with 4 aircraft they owned. All 4 of their government-owned (community college) aircraft that provided training to government (VA) students and public non-VA students each had Hobbs meters that started with the master switch I guess I should report them. And I guess each and every one of those students hours would not all be valid maybe what you're suggesting is they should run everything off the tach and the same will go for students flight time.

I suppose the two other 141 operators on my field who's Hobbs meter start on the master are also in violation of their training agreements with the Department of Veterans Affairs.

Luckily I don't have to deal with that kind of bureaucracy interfering with my operation so I'm in the clear. If people choose not to fly with us based on that they're more than welcome to go across the way and pay 20 to $30 an hour more for the same plane (while still paying for hobbs meters that turn on with the master) and with instructors that like to do ground lessons in the plains with the plane running it makes no difference to me our students are perfectly happy.

If someone doesn't want to fly here they don't have to I'm not holding a gun to anybody's head and we are perfectly busy in fact people are very thankful that we are so affordable.

Don't buy a helicopter and fly for BLM. Billing off the master isn't acceptable. Glad it's working for you. I still wouldn't rent any airplane that charged off the master. Please don't don't take what I'm saying as a personal attack because it isn't. Just saying I think it's unreasonable and I don't do business that way.

And you would be correct that I wouldn't be renting in SoCal. Difficult to rent in a place I wouldn't visit.

 

[Palmpilot]

To each their own. Looks like you wouldn't be renting almost anywhere in SoCal based on that out look.

It's amazing how much difference 400 miles make. My experience in the Bay Area has been the exact opposite. In 25 years of renting from various places, I have only encountered one airplane where the Hobbs meter ran whenever the master switch was on.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

Yours off of the collective or is it weight on gear (WOG) switch?

It's two switches in series. Oil pressure and a micro switch on collective position.

 

[Fearless Tower]

To each their own. Looks like you wouldn't be renting almost anywhere in SoCal based on that out look.

FWIW, when you start throwing out absolutes like that your argument gets less believable.

I'm a member of one of the largest clubs in the country that happens to be based in SoCal (Plus One in San Diego). Our fleet has a healthy mix of Master controlled and Oil Pressure controlled Hobbs meters. You will see all varieties.....even in SoCal.

But here is the reality that makes the whole argument quite silly: 0.1 on a Hobbs meter equals 6 minutes.

With the exception of the guy who doesn't use the checklist and forgets to turn off the master switch, this is really a non-issue. If you are running the battery for 6 minutes without the engine running, you are doing it wrong.

Even the guys learning glass panels: there are plenty of cheap simulators out there you can play with to learn the buttonology without needing to sit in the airplane and run the battery down.

 

[Thomas R.]

I just decided that I'm going to give away free time to every person in Southern California signs up on my Redbird FMX simulator and out of all the people that signed up to come play with the redbird I will choose one two or mayne three people and they are going to get a free flight lesson on the house I appreciate your guys input and criticisms you have steered me into giving some free stuff away today! Thanks for putting me in a great mood the students will really benefit from this one! Regardless of your guys thoughts on how we bill for 6 minutes I just strive to be one of the most awesome flight schools around. And I plan on changing the culture at least here in Southern California.

 

[fiveoboy01]

FWIW, when you start throwing out absolutes like that your argument gets less believable.

I'm a member of one of the largest clubs in the country that happens to be based in SoCal (Plus One in San Diego). Our fleet has a healthy mix of Master controlled and Oil Pressure controlled Hobbs meters. You will see all varieties.....even in SoCal.

But here is the reality that makes the whole argument quite silly: 0.1 on a Hobbs meter equals 6 minutes.

With the exception of the guy who doesn't use the checklist and forgets to turn off the master switch, this is really a non-issue. If you are running the battery for 6 minutes without the engine running, you are doing it wrong.

Even the guys learning glass panels: there are plenty of cheap simulators out there you can play with to learn the buttonology without needing to sit in the airplane and run the battery down.

I agree that the most you're going to need the Hobbs running is a tenth... Walk around and check lights, stall born... Then go back in and shut it off. But consider this... At $120/hr, that tenth costs the renter $12.... Multiply that by 50 lessons. You've added $600 to the cost of a PPL certificate, and for no justifiable reason. The most costs incurred are when the airplane is flying, landing, taxiing... I get that flying is expensive. No need to jack the cost farther.

Also I don't know how common it is but some schools will require you to round the Hobbs up if it's stopped in between two numbers.

 

[SkyDog58]

.1 hour = 6 minutes. I seldom have the master on for more than a minute, two at most, from beginning of preflight until engine start. So it would take at least 3 flights if not 6, before I hit an extra .1 on the hobbs if tied to the master. Doesn't really make much of a difference either way. Not sure why so many of you are so worried about this.

 

[moonshine]

.1 hour = 6 minutes. I seldom have the master on for more than a minute, two at most, from beginning of preflight until engine start. So it would take at least 3 flights if not 6, before I hit an extra .1 on the hobbs if tied to the master. Doesn't really make much of a difference either way. Not sure why so many of you are so worried about this.

I once took lessons in a 300CB - flight hour cost was around $300. Per the checklist you do the belt transmission test - that's .1 right there. So yey, you just paid $30 for the honor of doing the preflight. But hey, you get to log that, how awesome is that! That was one of the two main reasons I took my money out of there and found a better place.
Someone mentioned thievery on the first page - in my book Hobbs on master switch is thievery.

 

[Kritchlow]

ONE MORE TIME... Since this thread has turned a little ugly, and since I am the OP:

JUST TO BE CLEAR FOLKS: Since I suspect other members of my Flying Club are on this board, and since aviation is a small community, my pondering on this subject was just that - pondering. A thought exercise. I'm happy to pay to support my flying addiction.

I also rent by the golden: I do unto others as I would have them do unto me.

Okay...
But the tittle of the thread...... Just sayin'

 

[Turningfinal]

Then you've voluntarily excluded a significant portion of the fleet from your consideration.

Not sure how it compromises safety. Could you expand?

Sorry but I've been traveling for the last few weeks and haven't had a chance to respond.

I've willingly excluded a significant portion of the fleet from my consideration because I practice what I preach. Thankfully I'm an equity member of a flying club where we charge by tach time.

My opinion is that by charging people by the Hobbs, some individuals may feel rushed to get in the air so they're actually paying for "flying time" vs. time on the ground. I've seen it first hand. Rushed/skipped checklists, taxiing at highway speeds, and feeling committed to T&Gs when full-stop taxi backs would be more beneficial. You also have guys that will essentially use "full rental power" in order to get to their destination quickly, reducing their cost.

With our club aircraft (tach time), there's no rush to get off the ground because the tach meter is hardly turning at all, especially below 1000 RPM. We can take our time with checklists, don't have any issues waiting on the ground for clearances (vs. taking off and trying to pick up an airborne clearance), and our pilots actually manage the engines better because there's no need to have the throttle pegged to the firewall the entire time.

Again, YMMV, but that's my opinion on the subject.

 

[Mike Smith]

This is such a ridiculous argument. If you are leaving the master on for 6 minutes before engine start you shouldn't be complaining to the FBO, look in the mirror because you are doing it wrong. Yes I know there may be an exception or two, but by and large its not. Every airplane i have rented (and all the local ones that I haven't) are all hobbs/master. No I don't feel cheated, no I don't think the FBO owner is a thief. One guy who is doing his best to get and keep folk flying and people call him a thief for doing what many, many others do. GMAB.

 

[Mtns2Skies]

I don't know. I definitely feel rushed when charged by the Hobbs. There are times where if it were my plane I'd sit and let the engine warm up for a little bit etc etc. When I'm charging by the time the master is on I'm definitely less inclined to baby the engine, vs. time I'm being charged by the RPM's. I've never flown at a place that charges by tach but I'd much prefer it and feel less rushed.