Flying without insurance

Theboys

Theboys

Line Up and Wait
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Theboys
Just wondering if many people on here fly without insurance of any kind? I've always heard that more people don't have insurance than would be believed. If you don't have insurance how do you justify the risk? I'm pretty sure that all people who have loans on planes probably have insurance.
 
Yeah, if you've got a loan, I bet going uninsured isn't an option.

I'll be paying cash for my first plane but still want insurance. The way I make that decision is simple. I just ask myself a question: "How much will it hurt if I wreck the plane and write it off?" In my case, losing a $40,000 or $50,000 airplane would be pretty painful. Not the end of the world financially, but I'd be really upset about it.

For some people, losing an airplane is no big deal. They've got enough in the bank that it wouldn't even register emotionally for them, so they can self-insure if they want. If I were in that position, I'd still want a good liability policy because big-time wealth is like a giant target on your back for lawsuits.

So if you'd miss the money, pay for insurance. If you wouldn't, you can go without. It's kinda ironic, but that's life.

My insurance is only going to be $694/year for a Cherokee 180 with a hull value of $50,000. That can factor into it, too. The higher the premium gets vs. the value of the plane, the more sense it makes to self-insure.
 
I was thinking about the hard to insure planes that don't have a huge value, but the insurance company really doesn't want to insure or gives exorbitant rate quotes.
 
The real issue is not the value of the plane itself, it is the cost of having someone else hurt in an accident you caused. Even a very small metal bend can become a nightmare if your passenger suddenly says their back hurts from whatever caused that bend.
 
^^^that^^^
The value of the plane is nothing. Taking financial responsibility for the damage you inflict on others would/could hurt far worse. Besides, it's your moral responsibility to do so.
 
My insurance is not for my plane but but the liability it brings. Even with the insurance I'm only party protected. Attorneys will still go after everything else. I figured I'm paying for their attorneys to fight for me.
 
I think liability is pretty much a given. For me at least. But hull ins seems little questionable. Like my house insurance. Have claimed once in my life for about 1500$. Have paid in probably 150,000. Granted I can't replace for 150,000
 
My airport requires proof of insurance on the planes hangared on the field as well as any vehicle that drives onto the field, with the airport named as an additional insured. Never really thought about it too much, just assumed this was common at other airports.
 
It's not your 50 year old plane, it's when you touch wings in ground ops with the $2M turbo prop
 
yetti said:
It's not your 50 year old plane, it's when you touch wings in ground ops with the $2M turbo prop
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Yep. Get as much liability insurance as you can afford in my opinion. Of course if you're flying out of your dirt strip on your farm and never fly over congested areas then no I'd probably not bother. For most of us though, an accident where you cause damage to somebody else's property or even worse take lives, you need that insurance and just hope it is enough.
 
I've flown without before, it's really just a risk assessment, insurance is a product, sometimes there is a need that justifies it's price, other times there isn't.

Also for what I've seen of the insurance industry at work, you got to factor in legal expenses with your deductible, these companies are first and foremost looking for a reason NOT to pay out.
 
timwinters said:
^^^that^^^
The value of the plane is nothing. Taking financial responsibility for the damage you inflict on others would/could hurt far worse. Besides, it's your moral responsibility to do so.
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Very sensible. Thanks. To fly without insurance is really stupid . If you own a home and so forth of course you want protection ! If you live in the hangar and are broke, not needed. As for hull insurance....when the hangar collapsed on my trophy Winner in a snow storm, my insurance paid within ten days the full cost of the airplane. Avemco. Well worth my payments. This also happened to a just rebuilt Luscombe which the owner had spent a lot of money on. He had no insurance. Total loss. ( he tried to sue the airport, got nowhere.)
 
Is the plane registered to you personally? If so, they can come back after you and other assets you own. You want to risk your other assets? Suddenly the cost of insurance is pretty cheap.

Simple thing like an off-field landing with no plane damage can be a mess to get resolved. Why would someone want to expose themself to all this when a claims adjuster will do it all, and resolve the legal issues too?

Guy I know landed in a field and it cost $68,000 in legal bills to get the plane out. Field owner was an attorney, so I don't have to say any more.
 
Liabilty, but don't overdo it, else you become a more attractive target. I limit liabilty, to a degree, by flying alone almost exclusively. I BFR in a FBO airplane, their CFI. Last few, I wait until the previous BFR is expired - no doubt then the CFI is PIC.
 
I've known of a few folks who had off field landings and hauled their planes away with a few friends, tools and a flatbed, didn't cost anything outside from some time and whatever engine repairs were needed.

Folks have become so ingrained that insurance = responsibility, it's really great marketing over the years on the part of the insurance industry.

"Advertising is based on one thing, happiness. And you know what happiness is? Happiness is the smell of a new car. It's freedom from fear. It's a billboard on the side of the road that screams reassurance that whatever you are doing is okay. You are okay."
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I don't live my life based on fear and what ifs, just try to make smart moves and choices and react quickly and decisively.
 
I've always just had liability only. I owned my planes outright, so never really saw the need for hull. Anything that would break, I could swing in a pinch (even though it would hurt). But I might go for some hull down the road. I certainly need to up my liability a little, as it's on the lower end.
 
Right now I have a Pitts Model 12, J-3 Cub and a Cessna 172. I DO NOT have insurance... I take a risk but that is my choice. The money I save on insurance buys me lots of gas.
 
pigpenracing said:
Right now I have a Pitts Model 12, J-3 Cub and a Cessna 172. I DO NOT have insurance... I take a risk but that is my choice. The money I save on insurance buys me lots of gas.
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What about those who may be damaged by YOUR accident? Screw them? They didn't choose for you to crash into their house, car, truck, whatever. Do you not feel that you are responsible for the damage you do to others in life?
 
timwinters said:
What about those who may be damaged by YOUR accident? Screw them? They didn't choose for you to crash into their house, car, truck, whatever. Do you not feel that you are responsible for the damage you do to others in life?
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I guess that could happen but not likely!
Don't rag on me buddy! I fly within the rules... Insurance is not a requirement for aviation!
If it was a requirement I would have it.
You can buy insurance if you like. Don't worry about if I have it or not.
 
It seems to me like liability ins of some kind is good. Don't know if they offer it, but a blanket policy seems like a good option. I have one plane I maybe only flew 30 hrs last year. Ins is 2200 on it. It is 6 place which raises it pretty good seems like. May fly it more this year but haven't even sat in it yet. It has been flown however by someone else. Most of my trips are pretty long so I take a faster plane.
 
Just make sure that you are complying with any of your state's requirements. Personally I think it is foolish not to carry liability though I can see considering hull as optional depending on value. Of course if you have a loan, the lender will require it.

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I have insurance but realistically if you really bang things up the limit of most policies of 100K per passenger isn't going to do diddly.
 
Lot of planes in western states owned by farmers and ranchers. Think most of them figure if they wreck it checking cattle, fences or fields the loss would be about like a major tractor breakdown.
 
I've got it,
but my hat hangs with those who choose not to carry it.
To say they are endangering their lives and others by not covering it/and other lives with paper contracts and currency, the value just isn't there and I don't agree
It's my opinion without insurance life would be all around better for everyone
 
Challenged said:
My airport requires proof of insurance on the planes hangared on the field as well as any vehicle that drives onto the field, with the airport named as an additional insured. Never really thought about it too much, just assumed this was common at other airports.
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:yeahthat:, same for me!!! Oh, and my state also requires it...:eek:
 
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I've known a few people who fly without hull insurance with some fairly valuable aircraft (but still keep liability). Generally, their mentality is that they don't expect they'll crash and have cheap enough repair options (usually these people are an A&P or do owner-assist work) that they figure it's worth the risk. Personally, I wouldn't run without hull unless it was a very low value aircraft. There might be some calculated risks where I'd consider going without insurance, but it would involve some single ferry flight.
 
DFH65 said:
I have insurance but realistically if you really bang things up the limit of most policies of 100K per passenger isn't going to do diddly.
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Maybe, maybe not. Depends on many factors including who you injure and the nature of the accident. Many of the sublimits are actually developed based on what the insurance companies have found that people will settle for.

Obviously if you kill a father of 4 who is the sole provider, his family is probably not going to settle, but that isn't the average case.

The other thing is the defense. Regardless of your sublimits, you want the liability insurance so that you have someone defending you if something goes wrong. The legal fees for defending yourself can get really out of hand.

I can see skimping on hull, but considering how cheap liability insurance is in comparison, I'm still not sure why anyone would want to fly without it.
 
Fearless Tower said:
...
Obviously if you kill a father of 4 who is the sole provider, his family is probably not going to settle, but that isn't the average case.
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True but in many cases the bulk of ones assets are in their home and retirement accounts. In most states these enjoy some level of protection from the courts. If you are crazy wealthy then you better make sure you are covered.

The other thing is the defense. Regardless of your sublimits, you want the liability insurance so that you have someone defending you if something goes wrong. The legal fees for defending yourself can get really out of hand.
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Totally agree with this.
 
A good rule of thumb with insurance
Only insure that which you can not afford to replace.
For example, TV insurance, if you can afford to replace it, you do not need the insurance.
A house, if you can not afford to replace it you need it.

Most people who have car liability insurance, are way under insured, and usually get the state minimum.
(25k for individual 50k total for all automobile passengers )

It would be interesting to see what the actual insurance payout is on the average claim, hull and passengers excluded. My guess it would be pretty low.
 
DFH65 said:
True but in many cases the bulk of ones assets are in their home and retirement accounts. In most states these enjoy some level of protection from the courts. If you are crazy wealthy then you better make sure you are covered.
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Even if you're technically judgment proof (assets in protected accounts, etc.), you could easily spend 20+ years worth of insurance premiums defending yourself against the lawsuit, collection activities, etc.
 
bradg33 said:
Even if you're technically judgment proof (assets in protected accounts, etc.), you could easily spend 20+ years worth of insurance premiums defending yourself against the lawsuit, collection activities, etc.
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Which is basically why I carry insurance. Where I fly (generally very rural) the chance of doing much damage on the ground is small. People and defense are probably the big issues. If you are renter like me, loss of use I suppose could be another area that racks up a bill fairly fast.
 
timwinters said:
What about those who may be damaged by YOUR accident? Screw them? They didn't choose for you to crash into their house, car, truck, whatever. Do you not feel that you are responsible for the damage you do to others in life?
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Having dealt with the guy once trying to buy a headset off of him, I'm not surprised at his lack of regard for other people...
 
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