Flying with inop alternator

Ed Haywood

Ed Haywood

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Is it legal to fly with an inop alternator to travel to a maintenance facility?
 
Since there are planes with no electrical system, it would be a strange legal requirement to have an alternator or generator. Theoretically you could top up the battery, cross your fingers and go for it.

Someone will be along to say if anything goes wrong you can say "it must have failed in flight".

But really, the alternator isn't major surgery. Why would you take the risk instead of fixing it where it's at?
 
It depends.

Some airplanes have an kinds of equipment list, which tells you what must be operational for which kind of flight. If the alternator is on that list, no, you’re not legal. If you don’t have such a list, it’s just the regulatory items.

however, you can certainly get a ferry permit from the FSDO to legally move the airplane.
 
I fly an experimental that is electrically dependent. For me it may not be illegal to fly without an alternator but it would not be wise. I won't do it.

Even for a certified plane I don't think I would as I don't fly "broken" airplanes. There is a difference between legal and smart.
 
I agree with bflynn. Check to see if you have an equipment list.

FAA refers to a ferry flight as a “”special flight permit.”
 
bflynn said:
It depends.

Some airplanes have an kinds of equipment list, which tells you what must be operational for which kind of flight. If the alternator is on that list, no, you’re not legal. If you don’t have such a list, it’s just the regulatory items.

however, you can certainly get a ferry permit from the FSDO to legally move the airplane.
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as long as the electrical equipment is operational is all that matters.
 
You may want to investigate why it is inoperative.

Failure of the drive inside the engine could be disastrous.

Might be good to disconnect a belt driven one too.

Pulling the Breaker(s) might reduce excessive excitement.

FAR 91.xxx addresses operations with Inoperative Equipment.


An A & P must sign the Ferry Permit to be valid.

Some FSDOs will refer you to a DAR for a Ferry Permit.

This can cost more than just fixing it.
 
Tom-D said:
as long as the electrical equipment is operational is all that matters.
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It depends on the airplane. Newer Cessnas for example have a list of required equipment. So does a cirrus. If the alternator is listed as required equipment, then the airplane is not airworthy and must have a ferry permit.
 
Five years ago, I lost my alternator while en-route to Rockport Texas at a small, middle of nowhere airport. (Winkler County, Texas) There were no facilities there to fix it. I hooked it up to the FBO's battery charger and called around to find a mechanic (January 2nd) to fix it. I finally found one in Midland who agreed to take a look at it.

With the battery fully charged, I started the plane, announced my departure and then shut off everything after I was airborne. Only after I got within 20 miles of Midland did I turn the radios back on and got clearance to land and taxi to the mechanic's hangar.

Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.
 
You might consider the type of alternator. Friend with a Columbia 400 flew with an inop alternator. Columbia has a belt driven and a gear driven alternator. The gear driven one was inop. Turns out the gear driven one's coupler had failed shedding metal into the engine. Engine is now in for a $65,000 overhaual. Don't recommend flying with inop gear driven alternator.
 
[QUOTE="bflynn, post: 3041537, member: 11472"]It depends on the airplane. Newer Cessnas for example have a list of required equipment. So does a cirrus. If the alternator is listed as required equipment, then the airplane is not airworthy and must have a ferry permit.[/QUOTE]

True. no equipment list ?? go for it.
 
As others have said, depends on the alternator and the aircraft.
I lost an alternator a couple years ago. Landed at a towered airport (coordinating via cell phone while in the air)
Left the battery on a charger at the FBO over night
Came back the next day, called the tower, received clearance to take off and as soon as I was out of their airspace (D), I shut down the radios and transponder and flew the 20 miles to my home field (uncontrolled).
10 miles out, I turned the battery back on, turned on the radios and landed uneventfully.
I shared the same concern as you and was very happy to learn that I could fly and operate without the electrics (definite learning experience).

Go for it, you'll be fine.
 
Ryan F. said:
You might find an article I wrote on airworthiness to be interesting.

https://www.ryanfergusondpe.com/understanding-airworthiness/
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Ryan, this is one of the best and most useful pilot articles I have ever read. Very well done. I will pass this around. Thanks!

Here is my situation. Friday night in my Decathlon, I was enroute to drop off a friend at a rural airport about 500 miles from my home base. I began getting low voltage warnings. I landed at the destination, got a hotel, and went back in the morning to troubleshoot. We connected a jump cart to the battery, charged it up to 50%, and started the aircraft. The weather was beautiful, so my plan was to charge it further, then fly home to my mechanic.

This is a quiet small town airport. At that moment, there were only 3 human beings on or near the airfield. Me, my friend, and the FAA maintenance inspector who picked that moment to drop by. He was driving thru the area and had never been there before. Yup, I got ramp checked.

He was friendly, and we enlisted him to help with troubleshooting. Once we all agreed the alternator was inop, I tried to make the case that I could easily make the flight safely on battery power. Day VFR, class E under 10K the whole way.

He "discouraged" that action. He was unsure because we didn't have all the references in your article. My POH checklist says to land "as soon as practicable" for repairs if the alternator fails. He felt that would preclude taking off. He offered to facilitate a ferry permit since there was no maintenance shop on field, and put me in touch with a semi-local A&P/IA to discuss further. Then he left.

So now I am in a bind. He did not tell me not to fly. But he left me with the probability that if I did fly, I might face further scrutiny from the FAA.

I was approaching the cutoff time where I could not complete the flight in daylight. I decided to get a hotel, research further, and try again today. Of course last night a low front moved over and conditions are LIFR. So now I am stuck in a small town hotel, and the earliest I can get a replacement alternator is noon on Tuesday. That means the earliest I can get home is Weds morning, weather permitting.

The ridiculous thing (even more ridiculous than an FAA inspector appearing in the middle of nowhere), is that we looked at the wrong POH. I have an aftermarket POH I use in the cockpit because it is smaller and has handy checklists and more performance tables. The FAA approved aircraft flight manual, which I checked after he left, says to land for repairs "if electrical power is necessary for safety of flight." That would not be in there if the alternator were required by the TCDS for day VFR. Arggh.
 
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Ed Haywood said:
Is it legal to fly with an inop alternator to travel to a maintenance facility?
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The original question is about legality. If you’re trying to tackle this legally have a close look at 91.213.
Google 91.213 flow chart.
You’ll come up with something like this: http://www.niceairaviation.com/Documents/MEL flow chart.pdf
Use the flow chart to help understand and apply 91.213
AC91-67 is old and canceled but it can still be helpful in understanding the order of things.

You will need to check for an Equipment List. This is a key step in the process.

-If you decide it’s ok to operate don’t skip the legal requirement to document and placard. In the case of an alternator you’ll probably need a mechanic to help make this documentation.
-If you decide that it’s not ok to operate you’ll need to obtain a special flight permit. This will probably require a mechanics approval and signature as well.

Sorry. You asked for for legal.
 
Ed Haywood said:
He offered to facilitate a ferry permit since there was no maintenance shop on field, and put me in touch with a semi-local A&P/IA to discuss further.
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FWIW: This was your get out jail/pass go and collect $200 card. You still have an option with 91.213d but I'd call the ASI back Monday morning and get the ferry permit and get home.
 
Jdm said:
Sorry. You asked for for legal.
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I asked for legal because that is what I need! See my tale above.

The flow chart is helpful. I need to chase down the TCDS and KOEL.

Unfortunately the whole intellectual exercise has been rendered moot by weather, and I am stranded for at least 4 nights.
 
Ed Haywood said:
I asked for legal because that is what I need! See my tale above.

The flow chart is helpful. I need to chase down the TCDS and KOEL.

Unfortunately the whole intellectual exercise has been rendered moot by weather, and I am stranded for at least 4 nights.
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Id say it is also somewhat moot since an FAA inspector already gave you an opinion on the matter...

But since you have 4 days worth of time to kill it is a worthy research project so you know what to do next time. The Decathalon might be a bit convoluted to figure out since it is Champ based which had no electrical system but as far as I know the Decathalon always did. I could see the determination going either way in this case.
 
Bell206 said:
FWIW: This was your get out jail/pass go and collect $200 card. You still have an option with 91.213d but I'd call the ASI back Monday morning and get the ferry permit and get home.
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Based on his comments, I think he meant a ferry permit to a nearby repair station. I doubt he will issue one for the 500 mile flight home. Also, the local repair shop I talked to said ferry permits usually take about a week. So what do I do if I request a ferry permit and then it gets caught in the indefinite wheel of government bureaucracy? I could sit here for a week, they can't tell me when it will be approved, and I can't decide to fly without it or I will DEFINITELY get scrutinized.

If 91.213d is unambiguous that I can fly, I'd rather send the supporting info to him and tell him what I am doing. That way I can defend myself by showing that I did my best to comply with the applicable regs.

Quite honestly, it's frigging ridiculous that we need a Harvard Law degree and a stack of obscure technical documents from 1978 to stay in compliance with a fly/no-fly decision for day VFR in a 2 place tube and fabric aircraft. Oh, and the result is spending 5 days in a hotel in the middle of a pandemic.
 
just to note,, You might want to have a look and inspect the alternator, it might be something simple to fix.
wire do brake :)
 
Ed Haywood said:
Based on his comments, I think he meant a ferry permit to a nearby repair station. I doubt he will issue one for the 500 mile flight home.
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Ask him. Ferry flights can be made for any length of distance and time.
Ed Haywood said:
Also, the local repair shop I talked to said ferry permits usually take about a week.
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Between magaman's DAR requirement and your week turnaround I guess I need to stay away from those areas. Signed several in the last year all by phone/email same day, almost same hour. You guys must not be living right.
Ed Haywood said:
If 91.213d is unambiguous that I can fly,
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Its not. But perhaps discuss with your mechanic for input. It appears from your explanation the inop alt meets the requirements of 91.213d, isn't a "required" item on your Equip List, no AD, and doesn't need a Part 43 entry. Just be sure to placard the alt switch/CB inoperative and even though a record entry is gray area for no Part 43 work, I think a simple statement on a piece of paper describing the inop placard and 91.213d reference with acft TT and date and your signature/PP# would be appropriate.
 
Ed Haywood said:
I asked for legal because that is what I need! See my tale above.
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Got it. I didn’t see the full story until after posting.

Ed Haywood said:
Based on his comments, I think he meant a ferry permit to a nearby repair station. I doubt he will issue one for the 500 mile flight home. Also, the local repair shop I talked to said ferry permits usually take about a week.
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I agree. He’s most definitely talking about a permit to take it to a mx facility. They’ll have you list the the location on the permit. If there happens to be a mx facility on your home field they might let you roll with that verbiage:)
Also agree they take a while to issue. COVID has most of them working from home. We recently considered getting a permit for a airplane that I needed to pick up out of town. It was going to take way too long. Ended up getting it repaired on site
 
Okay, question resolved. I have an equipment list in the back of my approved flight manual. The alternator is listed as required for certification. Am I correct in assuming that eliminates deactivating and placarding as a legal option?

Again, weather has rendered it an academic discussion. At this point repair on site is most practical choice. Just gotta scramble to get the right part shipped tomorrow am.
 
There ya go. Well done.
 
Magman said:
You may want to investigate why it is inoperative.

Failure of the drive inside the engine could be disastrous.

Might be good to disconnect a belt driven one too.

Pulling the Breaker(s) might reduce excessive excitement.

FAR 91.xxx addresses operations with Inoperative Equipment.


An A & P must sign the Ferry Permit to be valid.

Some FSDOs will refer you to a DAR for a Ferry Permit.

This can cost more than just fixing it.
Click to expand...


Can you cite the letter or guidance that is now requiring a DAR approval for a simple SFP? You are the only individual that claims this is happening.

Thanks
 
Ed Haywood said:
Am I correct in assuming that eliminates deactivating and placarding as a legal option?
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Provided it shows as "required" then yes for the 213d option. But it still does not take the ferry permit off the table, for what it is worth. Still worth a call to the ASI and see if you can nicely convince him to fly your local maintenance shop. Who knows. Good luck.
 
One more failed-alternator thread. The more important question here is "When was the last time that alternator was removed for internal inspection?"

Alternator brushes wear out much faster in an airplane than in a car. That alternator is driven at a ratio that makes it achieve redline RPM at the engine redline, and since cruising RPMs are close to redline, the alternator is spinning at very high speed all the time, wearing out those brushes. In your car the engine might redline at 6000 RPM and cruise at 2000 on the highway, much less when off the highway. In that Decathlon it redlines at 2700 and cruises at 2500 all the time. Don't expect car-like alternator life.

Annual inspections are supposed to cover the alternator and regulator wiring, which I used to find in horrible condition.

Now the OP is stuck in a hotel for several days, and that alone will cost far more than several 500-hour alternator inspections.
 
If it came with an electrical system from the factory, it should be operational. That is where a decent equipment list will show it as required equipment or optional. If not listed there, then you start getting into the TCDS and the basis or certification and the actual requirements that the aircraft was originally certified under.

Much like Cessna 150 fuel quantity gauges. They are required in order to be legal, even though they can be less than accurate if not maintained.

Also reminds me of the following NTSB Order. https://www.ntsb.gov/legal/alj/OnODocuments/Aviation/3755.pdf

Best to be wishing you were flying while on the ground.
 
Doc Holliday said:
Can you cite the letter or guidance that is now requiring a DAR approval for a simple SFP? You are the only individual that claims this is happening.

Thanks
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Fiefdom policy.

They just refer you to a DAR .

Some folks on other forums have had the policy for years.

Only about 2 years old here.

Other people say they can NEVER get any type of Field Approval.

Not the case here.

If the stars line up for you then consider yourself lucky.
 
Ed Haywood said:
The FAA approved aircraft flight manual, which I checked after he left, says to land for repairs "if electrical power is necessary for safety of flight." That would not be in there if the alternator were required by the TCDS for day VFR.
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Ed Haywood said:
I have an equipment list in the back of my approved flight manual. The alternator is listed as required for certification
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So for the benefit of the audience at home, what you discovered is that there can be a huge gap between what the AFM/checklist allows for continued flight with an inflight malfunction and what 91.213 allows for departing with inoperative equipment.

Essentially, “continue flight, but where you land is where you get it fixed” is quite common.
 
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I guess I live in a different world. Dead battery in my plane a couple of years ago. There was a local fly-in at a private strip I really wanted to go to. Hand propped it, battery's not charging, not enough voltage to even get the field windings going. But I'm going from an uncontrolled field to another uncontrolled field, no problem. Had a great time, hand propped again for the flight home, and replaced the battery afterwards. No big deal, really, since I've owned more planes without electrical systems than with. And legal, 'cuz it's experimental, no MEL.
 
TOMATO FLAMES!!
^I don't believe either "A" stands for "alternator"

(ducks and runs)
 
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