Flying under the Charlie shelf

[Jim K]

I live and farm under the shelf of a class c airport. It's also where I trained from, so I'm very familiar with it and comfortable with talking to them on the radio BUT.... every time I want to fly under the shelf to check my fields or fly the kids over our house now that I have my ticket, the controllers seem annoyed.

They always wind up giving me a heading or altitude that directly contradicts what I told them I want to do. I'm tempted to tell them to cancel radar services and squawk vfr when they do that to me, but I really do want to be in contact as well as have the advisories. They seem to have forgotten that there's class g airspace under theirs.

My plan is to request a tower tour, which I've always wanted to do anyway, and bring it up with them directly. I just wondered if anyone here has experience with this.... am I expecting too much freedom close to a (semi) busy airport? Maybe I'm using the wrong phraseology? I may need to be more specific with the approach controller, but I am worried about tying up the frequency, especially when I'm in golf airspace and should theoretically be out of their way.

 

[EdFred]

You don't need to talk to them if under it.

 

[RyanB]

I wouldn’t even call them up, it’s not necessary. As long as you remain outside of the Charlie, than just stay 1200.

 

[Jim K]

To be clear... I'm departing from said airport, so I'm already on a squawk code. The airplane is based there, so I don't want to get a reputation as being difficult. I understand the legality, it's more the diplomacy that's at issue.

 

[RyanB]

To be clear... I'm departing from said airport, so I'm already on a squawk code. The airplane is based there, so I don't want to get a reputation as being difficult. I understand the legality, it's more the diplomacy that's at issue.

You’re overthinking it - Just request a frequency change and squawk VFR.

 

[Rgbeard]

"Doowap Approach, Busmasher 45X would like to conduct aerial review operations in this area, underneath your airspace. We plan random maneuvering here outside of your airspace to accomplish our goal. I'd like to keep my code and request traffic advisories."

 

[MooneyDriver78]

"Doowap Approach, Busmasher 45X would like to conduct aerial review operations in this area, underneath your airspace. We plan random maneuvering here outside of your airspace to accomplish our goal. I'd like to keep my code and request traffic advisories."

I would be more assertive: “I will be conducting low altitude operations and will remain clear of Charlie airspace, I will monitor 121.5 and/or approach frequency if you need to contact me”


Tom

 

[Shawn]

Have you told the Departure controller what you wanna do? If you told anyone prior that often does not get relayed VFR downline.

 

[Sociald]

Just call them on the landline and chat with them, explain to them what you're doing and what you'd like to do. People tend to get all worked up and indignant when a simple phone call can save LOTS of unneeded radio transmissions. Heck, if this will be a normal thing for you, you could even offer to take them up and show them what you're trying to doing, you'll often find these guys/gals are aviation nuts and love flying as well. They my even teach you a thing or two about why they are doing what they're doing. A little communication goes A LONG way.

 

[RyanB]

Just call them on the landline and chat with them, explain to them what you're doing and what you'd like to do. People tend to get all worked up and indignant when a simple phone call can save LOTS of unneeded radio transmissions. Heck, if this will be a normal thing for you, you could even offer to take them up and show them what you're trying to doing, you'll often find these guys/gals are aviation nuts and love flying as well. They my even teach you a thing or two about why they are doing what they're doing. A little communication goes A LONG way.

LOL! Way to make an absolute mountain out of a mole hill! Everyone loves to complicate the most simplest of things.

 

[Bill]

I often fly in and out under the shelf without calling them up. No big deal.

 

[Sociald]

LOL! Way to make an absolute mountain out of a mole hill! Everyone loves to complicate the most simplest of things.

I'd agree that he could just cancel and do what he wants as long as he stay outside of the Class C. However, he said he flies out of the airport and wants to be diplomatic about it, this is a great way to do it.

 

[RyanB]

I'd agree that he could just cancel and do what he wants as long as he stay outside of the Class C. However, he said he flies out of the airport and wants to be diplomatic about it, this is a great way to do it.

Asking to take the controllers flying, so they can see what you’ll be doing first hand, is extreme overkill. Simply depart the airport and ask for a frequency change.

 

[Sac Arrow]

This has come up before. As I understand it, if you are on flight following, you could be receiving Class C services from ATC if you are within the Class C outer area, which is not charted in which case ATC directives are mandatory, and not advisory otherwise. If you are under the shelf you are probably in it.

As stated, just don't talk to them if you don't want to.

Maybe a controller will chime in and clarify.

 

[Velocity173]

I live and farm under the shelf of a class c airport. It's also where I trained from, so I'm very familiar with it and comfortable with talking to them on the radio BUT.... every time I want to fly under the shelf to check my fields or fly the kids over our house now that I have my ticket, the controllers seem annoyed.

They always wind up giving me a heading or altitude that directly contradicts what I told them I want to do. I'm tempted to tell them to cancel radar services and squawk vfr when they do that to me, but I really do want to be in contact as well as have the advisories. They seem to have forgotten that there's class g airspace under theirs.

My plan is to request a tower tour, which I've always wanted to do anyway, and bring it up with them directly. I just wondered if anyone here has experience with this.... am I expecting too much freedom close to a (semi) busy airport? Maybe I'm using the wrong phraseology? I may need to be more specific with the approach controller, but I am worried about tying up the frequency, especially when I'm in golf airspace and should theoretically be out of their way.

You’re in the outer area and that’s why they’re jerking you around. While you don’t have to call them, if you do call them they’re required to provide Class C services (separation) for you while under FF.

 

[Sociald]

Asking to take the controllers flying, so they can see what you’ll be doing first hand, is extreme overkill. Simply depart the airport and ask for a frequency change.

Oh I agree that's overkill in the extreme, but who isn't looking for another reason to go flying? You're right, simply change freq and you're good. If they're truly getting annoyed by him doing this, that's their problem. But again, he is based on the field and wants to keep good relations, then simply chatting with them on the phone can make life easier for everyone. My idea of taking them flying is overkill in the extreme, but just another idea.

 

[kyleb]

I'd agree that he could just cancel and do what he wants as long as he stay outside of the Class C. However, he said he flies out of the airport and wants to be diplomatic about it, this is a great way to do it.

There's nothing diplomatic or undiplomatic about it. "Exiting your airspace, squawking VFR, monitoring XYZ".

It isn't being difficult.

 

[Sociald]

There's nothing diplomatic or undiplomatic about it. "Exiting your airspace, squawking VFR, monitoring XYZ".

It isn't being difficult.

I bet if he called, they'd likely just tell him do exactly what you posted above. Then it's all done and he feels better about it. His perception of their "annoyance" is likely just them trying to follow their rules (separation of aircraft) as he continues to use their services. Nothing wrong with clarifying via a simple phone call (or more if one so desired).

 

[Jim K]

Have you told the Departure controller what you wanna do? If you told anyone prior that often does not get relayed VFR downline.

This may be the problem. I specifically tell cd/ground what I want, and I assumed they would put it on a remark when they sent it to approach. Approach always knows what direction and altitude I requested to depart the surface area, but maybe they don't know what I want after that. That's the reason I'm thinking actually going in, seeing how things work, and asking face to face is probably the best solution.

...As I understand it, if you are on flight following, you could be receiving Class C services from ATC if you are within the Class C outer area, which is not charted in which case ATC directives are mandatory, and not advisory otherwise....

That's my understanding as well. I don't have to talk to them, but I have to comply if I choose to. Honestly I want to work within the 'system', and from what I read, the controllers would rather be talking to you as well. It seems like there should be a way to make it work.

 

[Shawn]

This may be the problem. I specifically tell cd/ground what I want, and I assumed they would put it on a remark when they sent it to approach. Approach always knows what direction and altitude I requested to depart the surface area, but maybe they don't know what I want after that.

Even if they put a "remark" it is unlikely that Departure sees that note. It is as simple as:

...XXX, Contact Departure..."Departure, Skylane 12345 1000 climbing 2,500...gonna do some maneuvers 4 miles east of XXX, will remain clear of Charlie". They just wanna know what to expect. The "annoyance" is likely that they expect you to depart the area like 99% of the other traffic and they issue you instructions based on traffic flow then have to go back and amend since you want something else they dod not know about. It is all just communication.

No need to cancel, just communicate in plain ol english to the controller you are currently talking to. EVERY controller I have ever talked to said they would much rather be taking to you to know intentions vs guessing was a 1200 target is going to do, especially around Charlie airspace.

Now if they are being uncooperative or issuing inconvenient instructions counter to what you want do in E or G...THEN cancel!

 

[steingar]

I take off under the shelf of a class charlie every time I take off to the East. I don't know why you'd need a squawk code unless you're in the part of the charlie the descends to the surface. Even so, once under the shelf you can cancel advisories and squawk VFR. I never want to talk to controllers if I don't gotta.

 

[Shawn]

I never want to talk to controllers if I don't gotta.

Meanwhile I am the opposite and much prefer to be talking to ATC and taking full advantage of their services anytime I am outside the pattern. Never had an issues where I wanted to cancel, but I am also willing to just freely "talk" to them and communicate intentions.

 

[steingar]

Meanwhile I am the opposite and much prefer to be talking to ATC and taking full advantage of their services anytime I am outside the pattern. Never had an issues where I wanted to cancel, but I am also willing to just freely "talk" to them and communicate intentions.

I've got a Stratus and an iThngie. I can see every airplane that sports a transponder, which is the same as most of the local towers. Only thing they can give me is grief.

 

[Weekend Warrior]

Sounds to me like the OP is saying he is trying to work with them, but they are not letting him do what he wants to do while on their freq/with a code. So, as others have said, exit their airspace (if you are in it) and cancel their services until you are done, then call them back. Ez peezie.
As far as keeping services, it sounds like the class Charlie is saying you can't have it both ways. Maybe your house underlies an approach path.

 

[EdFred]

I've got a Stratus and an iThngie. I can see every airplane that sports a transponder, which is the same as most of the local towers. Only thing they can give me is grief.

...or heads up on a primary target that doesn't have a transponder.

"Mooney 1BH traffic at 12o'clock and 3 miles, type and altitude unknown"

Or does your Mooney have on board radar?

 

[dbahn]

So you decide to squawk VFR and change frequencies. What if the controller gives you a heading and instructs you to "remain on this frequency"?

What if you are already in class G airspace when that exchange takes place?

 

[Weekend Warrior]

So you decide to squawk VFR and change frequencies. What if the controller gives you a heading and instructs you to "remain on this frequency"?

What if you are already in class G airspace when that exchange takes place?

Personally, I'd be polite, but I'd say something like, "I'm clear your Charlie airspace and cancelling services, thanks."

 

[Jim K]

So you decide to squawk VFR and change frequencies. What if the controller gives you a heading and instructs you to "remain on this frequency"?

What if you are already in class G airspace when that exchange takes place?

Good question. Gonna have to flip through my far/aim and ponder that tonight. At least I know I won't have any trouble getting to sleep.

Meanwhile I am the opposite and much prefer to be talking to ATC and taking full advantage of their services anytime I am outside the pattern. Never had an issues where I wanted to cancel, but I am also willing to just freely "talk" to them and communicate intentions.

Agreed. I really like the idea of someone with a radar system watching my back, especially in the summer when the crop dusters and twice a year flyers are zipping around. And when the adsb mandate kicks in, the unequipped airplanes I can't see with my stratux are going to be concentrated..... under the shelf.

 

[Jim K]

Sounds to me like the OP is saying he is trying to work with them, but they are not letting him do what he wants to do while on their freq/with a code. So, as others have said, exit their airspace (if you are in it) and cancel their services until you are done, then call them back. Ez peezie.
As far as keeping services, it sounds like the class Charlie is saying you can't have it both ways. Maybe your house underlies an approach path.

I do in fact live nearly directly under the extended centerline of the primary runway, about 9 miles out. It was my understanding though that the Charlie was configured to contain the approach path and keep separation with vfr traffic.

 

[luvflyin]

This has come up before. As I understand it, if you are on flight following, you could be receiving Class C services from ATC if you are within the Class C outer area, which is not charted in which case ATC directives are mandatory, and not advisory otherwise. If you are under the shelf you are probably in it.

As stated, just don't talk to them if you don't want to.

Maybe a controller will chime in and clarify.

AIM 3-2-4 d. and e. tells you about this. Definition of Outer Area is in the Pilot Controller Glossary. @Jim K , if you get the tour and talk to them they’ll explain this to you that their Class C responsibilities extend outside the C itself and if their Outer Area differs from the basic 20 miles. Under the shelf, where you are, you are definitely in it.

 

[Velocity173]

So you decide to squawk VFR and change frequencies. What if the controller gives you a heading and instructs you to "remain on this frequency"?

What if you are already in class G airspace when that exchange takes place?

You tell the controller bye and have a nice day. there’s no obligation to remain on the frequency in the outer area. The controller’s manual specifically says to provide Class C services until clear of the outer area unless the aircraft is landing at a secondary airport or pilot has requested termination of services in the outer area.

 

[dbahn]

You tell the controller bye and have a nice day. there’s no obligation to remain on the frequency in the outer area. The controller’s manual specifically says to provide Class C services until clear of the outer area unless the aircraft is landing at a secondary airport or pilot has requested termination of services in the outer area.

Well, I'd argue that's incorrect because the controller has given you an instruction while in airspace that's in an area where ATC control is exercised. The fact that you're there voluntarily doesn't change your obligation to comply with all ATC instructions except in an emergency, even though you had no obligation to contact ATC in the first place.

Class G airspace might be different, but in both cases I'd presume he had a good reason to issue the instruction and I wouldn't insist on leaving the frequency in either airspace, although in class G it might not be determined to be a violation if you did (91.123).

 

[Clip4]

Sell the farm and buy another away from the C. Problem solved.

 

[bkspero]

I do in fact live nearly directly under the extended centerline of the primary runway, about 9 miles out. It was my understanding though that the Charlie was configured to contain the approach path and keep separation with vfr traffic.

I think your thought of meeting with them face to face via a Tracon/Tower tour is a perfectly reasonable way to casually get insight into what affect you have on their operations when flying near your farm under the Class C shelf. You might find, for example, that while the flight path is above the shelf and you're below it, there is enough potential for wake turbulence affecting your airplane that it may not meet their separation safety requirements. Face to face you have a reasonable chance of finding a way to get what you want without unacceptably affecting other traffic into and out of the Charlie airport. Time of day, or letting them vector you while they build a hole in the traffic which you can use to sight see near your farm. Or some other solution to this or whatever potential issue(s) exist.

Good luck whatever you decide to do.

 

[Velocity173]

Well, I'd argue that's incorrect because the controller has given you an instruction while in airspace that's in an area where ATC control is exercised. The fact that you're there voluntarily doesn't change your obligation to comply with all ATC instructions except in an emergency, even though you had no obligation to contact ATC in the first place.

Class G airspace might be different, but in both cases I'd presume he had a good reason to issue the instruction and I wouldn't insist on leaving the frequency in either airspace, although in class G it might not be determined to be a violation if you did (91.123).

Yeah, that instruction is valid if you’re continuing to receive FF in class E airspace. Once you terminate, that instruction is no longer valid because you’re not under ATC control anymore. ATC has no authority to force you to stay up that frequency and continue to receive FF.

 

[Bill]

...or heads up on a primary target that doesn't have a transponder.

"Mooney 1BH traffic at 12o'clock and 3 miles, type and altitude unknown"

Or does your Mooney have on board radar?

Or even another plane that is squawking but not talking. Descending into LZU a couple of weeks back ATL approach issued me a traffic alert. I was told to stop descent and immediate right turn 20*. It wasn’t until I completed the turn that we saw the other plane pass our left wing tip. You can’t see them all, flight following is a good idea in busy airspace.

 

[N1120A]

Just tell them what you're doing. If they say they can't do it that way and provide services, cancel advisories and pick up a squawk when headed back in. What Class C is this anyway? No need to make this complicated.

Also, good on you for wanting FF as much as you can get it. It makes you and the rest of us safer.

 

[steingar]

...or heads up on a primary target that doesn't have a transponder.

Most towers don't have primary radar. Heck, my old tower had nothing more than a guy with a pair of binoculars. You do you, I'll do me.

 

[Jim K]

Just tell them what you're doing. If they say they can't do it that way and provide services, cancel advisories and pick up a squawk when headed back in. What Class C is this anyway? No need to make this complicated.

Also, good on you for wanting FF as much as you can get it. It makes you and the rest of us safer.

My home airport kcmi. We maybe get a dozen regional jets a day, and have a lot of part 141 activity. We have a lot less traffic than kbmi, which is a delta about 40 miles away.

It's funny, the people I know who trained at untowered airports hate talking to controllers and avoid towered airports. I get apprehensive about flying into uncontrolled fields. I'm assuming I'll get better the more I do it, but listening and broadcasting on the ctaf with people talking in staticky voices 100 miles away.... hate it.

 

[dbahn]

Yeah, that instruction is valid if you’re continuing to receive FF in class E airspace. Once you terminate, that instruction is no longer valid because you’re not under ATC control anymore. ATC has no authority to force you to stay up that frequency and continue to receive FF.

When you told him bye and he responded with a heading and an instruction to remain on this frequency you WERE STILL on Flight Following in controlled airspace. So I contend then that failure to comply with that instruction is a violation.

That's why you hear, "Squawk VFR, frequency changed approved" when you advise that you are discontinuing Flight Following. Then you're off the hook.