Flying through MOA and restricted areas

azblackbird

azblackbird

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azblackbird
Just curious. If you are VFR with flight following should you contact ATC inquiring whether a restricted area is hot or cold, or will they automatically notify you as part of flight following?

I know you don’t have to notify ATC (or applicable agency) when flying through an MOA, but wouldn’t it be prudent to do so anyways if not for any traffic advisories, or military operations they might be aware of?

Just wondering...
 
MOA's can be active (hot), or inactive (cold). ATC will know their status. In my VFR experience, if the MOA is cold, they won't say a word and you fly on. If it's hot, they'll either let you in (you're not an issue) or tell you to stay out. That being said, I don't see anything wrong with asking for clarification. Also, remember, you can ask for a vector from ATC to help you stay clear of the area should you need it.

This is a question I'd really like to hear a controller chime in on, since I'm making a trip soon to California and will be in the area of a LOT of MOA's and restricted space.
 
I have only been let through a restricted area a few times, but fly through MOAs all the time (in Nevada it is hard not to). I usually ask the briefer about cold/hot when I call for my briefing and will ask ATC again before entering a MOA. You should never plan to enter a restricted area, but on rare occasions ATC has called me and offered a shortcut through one of the R sections.

Some MOAs have phone numbers you can call (the one near the ID/NV border is like this).
 
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You use the words restricted area,which is much different than an MOA. If you fly through an MOA you may become part of the training.
 
frfly172 said:
You use the words restricted area,which is much different than an MOA. If you fly through an MOA you may become part of the training.
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I think you have it backwards. My understanding is that restricted is usually a bombing or gunnery range. MOA is just space where military aircraft may have a heavy presence. Plenty of it here in AZ, both restricted and regular MOA.
 
texashikergal02 said:
MOA's can be active (hot), or inactive (cold). ATC will know their status. In my VFR experience, if the MOA is cold, they won't say a word and you fly on. If it's hot, they'll either let you in (you're not an issue) or tell you to stay out. That being said, I don't see anything wrong with asking for clarification. Also, remember, you can ask for a vector from ATC to help you stay clear of the area should you need it.

This is a question I'd really like to hear a controller chime in on, since I'm making a trip soon to California and will be in the area of a LOT of MOA's and restricted space.
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Generally they can't clear you through a hot restricted area. It's "hazardous." They're required to keep you (IFR / VFR on top) either 3 miles lateral or 500 vertical from the airspace unless they have approved separation (LOP) allowing transit or non hazardous activities exist, then just clear.

A MOA is "non hazardous" but does restrict non participant IFR aircraft entry unless they have an LOA authorizing entry...slim chance of that. VFR are never prohibited from entering a MOA. The controller might not want to work you under FF and terminate but that's pretty weak. I've worked countless VFRs thru our MOAs. AIM even tells them to contact ATC for traffic advisories when transitioning.
 
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DesertNomad said:
I have only been let through a restricted area a few times, but fly through MOAs all the time (in Nevada it is hard not to). I usually ask the briefer about cold/hot when I call for my briefing and will ask ATC again before entering a MOA. You should never plan to enter a restricted area, but on rare occasions ATC has called me and offered a shortcut through one of the R sections.
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Have you ever been denied flying through an MOA? Restricted I can understand as that is usually a bombing or gunnery range.
 
Velocity173 said:
Generally they can't clear you through a hot restricted area. It's "hazardous." They're required to keep you either 3 miles lateral or 500 vertical from the airspace unless non hazardous activities exist, then just clear.

A MOA is "non hazardous" but does restrict non participant if IFR aircraft entry unless they have an LOA authorizing entry...slime chance of that. VFR are never prohibited from entering a MOA. The controller might not want to work you under FF and terminate but that's pretty weak. I've worked countless VFRs thru our MOAs. AIM even tells them to contact ATC for traffic advisories when transitioning.
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That's what I wanted to know. Thank you. ;)
 
The old joke is that if you fly through a MOA you MIGHT get shot down but when you fly into a Restricted area you WILL be shot down.

From a VFR planning point of view, try to avoid both. You don't want to have a long leg that gets extra long because of a hot MOA. This is even more true if your other threads are real and you're going for max endurance every time you eventually fly.
 
What they said, MOAs should ask if they are hot and keep your head on a swivel

Restricted you better make sure they arnt hot.
 
azblackbird said:
Just curious. If you are VFR with flight following should you contact ATC inquiring whether a restricted area is hot or cold, or will they automatically notify you as part of flight following?

I know you don’t have to notify ATC (or applicable agency) when flying through an MOA, but wouldn’t it be prudent to do so anyways if not for any traffic advisories, or military operations they might be aware of?

Just wondering...
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Read here: http://www.safepilots.org/documents/SAFE_Training_Aid_MOAs.pdf
 
citizen5000 said:
Read here: http://www.safepilots.org/documents/SAFE_Training_Aid_MOAs.pdf
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Haaahhh... I just downloaded that not more than an hour ago. Thus the question.

Just wondered if you have VFR FF if you need to notify ATC when heading towards restricted or will they automatically vector you through or around depending if it's hot or cold.

The other question was when transitioning through an MOA if it was prudent to advise ATC (or controlling agency) so they can make you aware of any operations or heavy traffic.

Seems only one guy here actually had the answer. Oh well... that's the internets for ya... learning to separate the wheat from the chaff. ;)
 
azblackbird said:
Have you ever been denied flying through an MOA? Restricted I can understand as that is usually a bombing or gunnery range.
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Happens all the time when IFR. I've had to go under the Meridian 1 West MOA many, many times.
 
It's been mostly covered but one thing to add is that by contacting ATC, they can also tell you if it's occupied. The controller will know or can find out if there is anyone in there at that time. MOAs can go hot or cold based on a schedule, but other factors can influence wherever or not there are any aircraft in there. I avoid MOAs as much as possible VFR, but if it's not being used there's no harm in flying through.
 
azblackbird said:
The other question was when transitioning through an MOA if it was prudent to advise ATC or controlling agency so they can make you aware of any operations or heavy traffic.
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Yes, prudent and wise. They should be able to tell you the type and number of aircraft, usually.
 
You do not even need to contact anyone for MOA.
 
azblackbird said:
Just wondered if you have VFR FF if you need to notify ATC when heading towards restricted or will they automatically vector you through or around depending if it's hot or cold.
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Negative...it is pilot's responsibility to know if R is hot or not and if you can enter. Just being on FF you can very well fly right into a Active R and it is 100% on you, not ATC. They are under no obligation to keep you clear just like any other airspace that has restriction. YOU need to know.

All ya gotta do though is ask. I fly through cold R's all the time but I am sure to inquire about their status.
 
azblackbird said:
Just wondered if you have VFR FF if you need to notify ATC when heading towards restricted or will they automatically vector you through or around depending if it's hot or cold.

The other question was when transitioning through an MOA if it was prudent to advise ATC (or controlling agency) so they can make you aware of any operations or heavy traffic.
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They absolutely will not automatically vector you around a restricted area. You don't "notify" them you are about to enter a restricted area, though you could ask if it is active or not.

If you are getting flight following ATC already knows if you enter an MOA, no need to advise them. :confused:

azblackbird said:
Oh well... that's the internets for ya... learning to separate the wheat from the chaff. ;)
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You ask loaded questions which are impossible to answer as given.
 
dmspilot said:
You ask loaded questions which are impossible to answer as given.
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Many here have answered my questions. Nothing loaded about them. It's just that now I'm beginning to be able to tell who knows WTF they're talking about vs. those that don't.
 
Ravioli said:
@azblackbird is also asking about "being vetored" on VFR FF. Anyone want to address that?
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No thanks :)

azblackbird said:
Just curious. If you are VFR with flight following should you contact ATC inquiring whether a restricted area is hot or cold, or will they automatically notify you as part of flight following?

I know you don’t have to notify ATC (or applicable agency) when flying through an MOA, but wouldn’t it be prudent to do so anyways if not for any traffic advisories, or military operations they might be aware of?

Just wondering...
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You've already been answered pretty well. All I would reiterate is that ATC isn't required to notify you or vector you around airspace if you are VFR. IFR they always will. I would venture to guess that most controllers, workload permitting, will tell you about an active restricted area if you are seen drifting towards it.
 
Ravioli said:
@azblackbird is also asking about "being vectored" on VFR FF. Anyone want to address that?
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Well, ATC is responsible for keeping aircraft clear of SUA but it's also the pilot's responsibility in preflight planning. If he were to violate, it would be more on him than the controller.

Just like IFRs approaching an active MOA. I can't tell you the number of times IFR aircraft showed up at our boundary and seemed surprised it was active. They got vectored 3 miles from the boundary. A pain in the a$$ but required.
 
azblackbird said:
Many here have answered my questions. Nothing loaded about them. It's just that now I'm beginning to be able to tell who knows WTF they're talking about vs. those that don't.
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You asked "if you need to notify ATC when heading towards restricted [areas]." It's a question with a flawed premise that can't be answered properly without changing the premise.
 
Radar Contact said:
You've already been answered pretty well.
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Yea, about 5 posts up I got my answers, but as usual there will be 20 others come along that didn't read through the posts and will continue to offer up their opinions or answers even though half of them are wrong. That's the internets for ya... gotta learn to separate the wheat from the chaff.
 
Velocity173 said:
Well, ATC is responsible for keeping aircraft clear of SUA but it's also the pilot's responsibility in preflight planning. If he were to violate, it would be more on him than the controller.

Just like IFRs approaching an active MOA. I can't tell you the number of times IFR aircraft showed up at our boundary and seemed surprised it was active. They got vectored 3 miles from the boundary. A pain in the a$$ but required.
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As I stated several posts up. Thanks for the clarification.
 
There is a thread on a pilot arguing with ATC saying that he can pass thru MOA legally without talking bla bla bla . Question is, do u want to outrace a F14 with ur 172? Don't be that guy

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
 
azblackbird said:
Haaahhh... I just downloaded that not more than an hour ago. Thus the question.

Just wondered if you have VFR FF if you need to notify ATC when heading towards restricted or will they automatically vector you through or around depending if it's hot or cold.

The other question was when transitioning through an MOA if it was prudent to advise ATC (or controlling agency) so they can make you aware of any operations or heavy traffic.

Seems only one guy here actually had the answer. Oh well... that's the internets for ya... learning to separate the wheat from the chaff. ;)
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In general stay out of Restricted areas even if 'cold' and fly in an MOA without giving it a second thought.... In Nevada the state is thick with Restricted areas. Fallon NAS in the North, Nellis in the South. There are always ways to avoid Restricted areas that do not get in the way of a flight. It's not worth the hassle to contact a controlling authority to find out of the area is cold unless for some reason you just gotta go there. Restricteds can become hot quickly and then you are told by ATC to exit the area which could put a hurt on your route.
 
Fearless Tower said:
What's to address?
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You get a lot of vectoring on flight following outside of B or C airspace? I don't. And I also don't see a lot of MOAs or Restricted areas inside of B and C airspace.

Perhaps my lack of experience.
 
azblackbird said:
Yea, about 5 posts up I got my answers, but as usual there will be 20 others come along that didn't read through the posts and will continue to offer up their opinions or answers even though half of them are wrong. That's the internets for ya... gotta learn to separate the wheat from the chaff.
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That's true. But not all controllers are created equal so be careful asking an ATC related question and then hearing a reply and running with it. You may be getting an answer for a tower question from a radar only controller, or vice versa for TRACON's, centers, military, FCT, FAA, pilot, non-pilot, etc.

After you get the answer you want, you could always PM a mod and ask for thread lock down ;)
 
Radar Contact said:
That's true. But not all controllers are created equal so be careful asking an ATC related question and then hearing a reply and running with it. You may be getting an answer for a tower question from a radar only controller, or vice versa for TRACON's, centers, military, FCT, FAA, pilot, non-pilot, etc.

After you get the answer you want, you could always PM a mod and ask for thread lock down ;)
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What's the fun in locking down a thread ?? No no

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
 
My advice for SUAs is always this:

Not all SUAs are created equal. Some are busy and some are "ghost towns." You need local knowledge to determine which.

Not all controllers are in contact with the participating aircraft. If a controller states "I'm seeing multiple targets in the MOA I'm not talking to." It's probably best to go around.

Always check NOTAMs for active times. Hope for the best but be prepared for the worst and have enough gas to circumnavigate.

Be flexible. If you know activity is going on at a certain altitude, if you're able (VMC), modify your altitude in the SUA so you don't interfere with the "players."
 
I might have missed the answer, so if I'm restating something...well, it's POA.

If you are VFR getting traffic advisories (aka flight following), you should never enter a restricted area. If you do want to fly through a restricted area - and I have - you can ask ATC for the current status and if it's ok to fly through. Look at the legend of your chart to tell you who the controlling authority for the restricted area is and what frequency they monitor or just ask ATC and they will probably check for you. You can also find out information about the restricted area from multiple pre-flight sources, including google. The NC coast is full of them. When AOPA had their fly in last year, Cherry Point opened some of the areas to the north to make it easier for people to get to Beufort.

With a MOA, you need not do anything. Training may or may not be going on. Keep your eyes open, but the military planes will probably see you long before you see them. The closure rate with a jet is such that you are unlikely to have time to react.

If you are getting traffic advisories, then according to a chief counsel writing, you are supposed to obey ATC if they vector you.
 
Radar Contact said:
That's true. But not all controllers are created equal so be careful asking an ATC related question and then hearing a reply and running with it. You may be getting an answer for a tower question from a radar only controller, or vice versa for TRACON's, centers, military, FCT, FAA, pilot, non-pilot, etc. After you get the answer you want, you could always PM a mod and ask for thread lock down ;)
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Between his answer along with a couple others here who I deem knowledgeable basically answered my questions. I'm good to go!

Thread can keep going... no biggie. Helps me see the colors better.;)
 
azblackbird is also asking about "being vectored" on VFR FF. Anyone want to address that?
No thanks :)

Why do I think I'm about to step into a steaming pile of something, but step I will go.

A little background. I was flying my first plane home from CA to TX a few years ago, and had the 'pleasure' of trying to navigate the complex airspace of the White Sands Military Range in NM. Controller told me I was about to enter Restricted XXX and I needed to be FL 220 or above. Uh, ha, ha, and to complicate matters, I could not find said Restricted on the paper chart (gasp) that I was using at the time. Figuring I was about to be blown out of the sky by something shooting from the ground, or run over by something moving really fast, I finally had one last brain cell to request a vector. Got it, and 10 minutes later I was in the clear. My first (and still only) time to request a vector of ATC other than them vectoring me.

Now, especially for you western pilots, I am planning a trip that will take me through/near/in all sorts of the restricted spaces in/around Edwards AFB and all that mess in AZ/CA/NV. Do I plan to do a huge divert to miss all of it, or is there some way to possibly get at least a partial transition there (I know the answer will be dependent on activity), and I'll be planning multiple divert scenarios. Appreciate the experience of those who fly in that part of the airspace system more.
 
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