Flying through MOA and restricted areas

Velocity173 said:
If I had a nickel for every time this happened....
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If I had a nickel for every time I vectored an IFR aircraft around Beaufort 2. ;)

It's part of the training rules, KIO is required when someone not playing shows up. If their intentions are known, you can continue once everybody acknowledges the new restriction, i.e. new hard deck, altitude cap, or lateral boundary.
 
Cooter said:
If I had a nickel for every time I vectored an IFR aircraft around Beaufort 2. ;)

It's part of the training rules, KIO is required when someone not playing shows up. If their intentions are known, you can continue once everybody acknowledges the new restriction, i.e. new hard deck, altitude cap, or lateral boundary.
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Yeah that might have been the procedures we had in place. Been awhile. Never had a strike cancelled for VFR intruders though. Just gave traffic advisories to the VFR and the inbound aircraft.
 
Velocity173 said:
Unless things have changed, they never shutdown MOA ops for VFRs when I was there.
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What I posted didn't mean that "MOA ops" were "shutdown" when VFR traffic flew through. It meant that, because of the required military training rules, the tactical or training scenario had to be stopped internally by the participants.

When civil traffic causes me to 'knock it off', I never comment about it to the controlling agency because it just isn't relevant for them to know; it is perfectly legal for non-participating traffic to be there. There wouldn't be any point of informing the controller, "damn it, we just lost the ability to execute that 3rd scenario that we needed for this to be a complete sortie!"

It doesn't mean training wasn't lost, time wasn't wasted, nor that some choice words weren't spoken on the ICS or intraflight freq...or in the debrief after the sortie.
 
azblackbird said:
Interesting to know. It never hurts to ask... right?
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Sure. And like I said earlier, if I hear "Velocity 345, I'm showing multiple targets in Bulldog MOA that I'm not talking to," then I'm going around. Most likely they'll say they'll terminate me anyway so that's even worse to go through.

I don't apply a one size fits all approach to MOAs though. I know it's hot already and if the controlling agency knows what is going on, I might go through depending on what I hear. "Velocity 345, the Columbus MOAs are hot at your altitude but currently there are no aircraft in them. I'll keep you advised." In that case, I'm going through.

Last time I flew through one that went from cold to hot, I offered to adjust my altitude to avoid the activity. The "players" said I was fine where I was at. It's about working with ATC and the military. Just gotta be flexible.
 
Just to add to this, I noticed when reading the NOTAMS (at least here in AZ) the military is pretty good about making notification with the dates/times when a restricted area will be hot, thus allowing you to plan your flight accordingly.
 
While on FF I've been within seconds of going into a very hot Restricted area, and was never alerted by FF.

AZBlackBird... you ever fly between Gila Bend and Ajo (R-2305 and associated areas)??? It's one of the hottest restricted areas, because of the Goldwater Gunnery range, Luke, and Yuma. They will let you pass through while its hot, specifically because they'd rather know exactly where you are, than to try and guess where you are if you fly around through the MOA. You are right, with the number and size of R or MOA airspace down here in the SouthWest, we just learn to live with it.
Wondering... Do military aircraft show up on ADS-B? A couple months ago I was alerted by my Stratux, to 4 jets flying in tight formation, just below me, just outside of KPHX class B. Were they just showing because of TIS-b?
 
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CT4ME said:
Wondering... Do military aircraft show up on ADS-B? A couple months ago I was alerted by my Stratux, to 4 jets flying in tight formation, just below me, just outside of KPHX class B. Were they just showing because of TIS-b?
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I'd be curious to know that myself. ;)
 
CT4ME said:
While on FF I've been within seconds of going into a very hot Restricted area, and was never alerted by FF.

AZBlackBird... you ever fly between Gila Bend and Ajo (R-2305 and associated areas)??? It's one of the hottest restricted areas, because of the Goldwater Gunnery range, Luke, and Yuma. They will let you pass through while its hot, specifically because they'd rather know exactly where you are, than to try and guess where you are if you fly around through the MOA. You are right, with the number and size of R or MOA airspace down here in the SouthWest, we just learn to live with it.
Wondering... Do military aircraft show up on ADS-B? A couple months ago I was alerted by my Stratux, to 4 jets flying in tight formation, just below me, just outside of KPHX class B. Were they just showing because of TIS-b?
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If they have ADS-B out they will. As of right now, they still have to meet the 2020 mandate just like us. Probably get waived though.

From what I've read, they've got a good start on transports and helos but it sounds like some security issues have been brought up on the fighter side. Haven't heard about any fighters with it yet. Possibly some of the POA fighter guys can comment as to how far they're along.

The problem for most is their avionics are designed for military ops and not NAS. Right now BAE is scrambling to get Black Hawks ADS-B out by updating the software in their IFR GPSs. They never anticipated needing WAAS and now have to convert roughly 1,500 aircraft. Some versions don't even have an IFR GPS at all.
 
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CT4ME said:
While on FF I've been within seconds of going into a very hot Restricted area, and was never alerted by FF.

...
Wondering... Do military aircraft show up on ADS-B? A couple months ago I was alerted by my Stratux, to 4 jets flying in tight formation, just below me, just outside of KPHX class B. Were they just showing because of TIS-b?
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Normally, in formation, only the lead aircraft does the squawking.
 
Hacker said:
It doesn't mean training wasn't lost, time wasn't wasted, nor that some choice words weren't spoken on the ICS or intraflight freq...or in the debrief after the sortie.
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Just make sure you're going out on the right radio when saying your choice words. Can't count how many times I let Memphis Center know I needed lead to roll out. :arf::mad2:
 
And believe me, don't think it isn't going to be unpleasant for you if you bust a R area or TFR even if it isn't your fault. I'll give you a case in point I was directly involved with.

For those who don't know, I live on a residential airpark north of Charlotte, NC. As I type this I am sitting at my desk looking over about 2/3 of the 3000' grass runway here. Being one of the techies on the field, when the HOA took control of the airport from the developer I got the Airport Master Record updated to list a "magic" phone number for the airport manager. It rings a few of our phones here, but more often than not, I get it.

In 2012, the Democrats had their convention in Charlotte. Since our sitting president was up for reelection, there was a lot of security theater going on. We published information on the TFR on our local mailing list. At the same time the biggest and nicest fly-in in the area down at Triple Tree was going on. Well long about 1PM, my cell phone rings and the caller ID reads "AMOC." It's Homeland Security. (I later find out AMOC is Air-Marine Operations Center). They want to know who just took off from my airport, some just busted the TFR (our field is within the rings). I have no idea, I'm down the street at the hardware store but I tell them I could find out. They said, no matter, they are tracking the aircraft and if he heads back to my field they'd call me back.

I quick call my wife at the house. Turns out our neighbor has just taken off. We text the pilot (though he's in the air and likely not to get it). He calls a while later.

What had happened was he calls for a briefing early in the day. They tell him the TFR starts at 2:30. This is consistent with what was published earlier. He calls again at 1PM. Doesn't want a full briefing, just specifically wants to know if anything is changed on the TFR. FSS tells him, nope, still starting at 2:30. Fine. Now this guy flies an 1939 WACO with a big ol' Jake radial. It takes him nearly 45 minutes to get the thing int the air after that.

At 1:07 apparently, the powers that be decide that Obama's early and move the TFR up to 1:30 or something. Waco guy launches into an active TFR. Fortunately, since the class B is in the way, and CLT isn't real good about approving transitions, he heads sort of obliquely around the area to stay clear of the class B. Then his wife notices a big red blob on the GPS (he's got XM weather which shows TFR). They're confused but decide to bug out of the area directly. By the time he gets to Triple Tree, they are looking for him. They know the type and color of the aircraft even (more than just radar going on here guys!). After calling the HSA people who left the number he explains his story. They buy it and figure since he bugged directly out of the area after noticing it, he's not a threat. They amicably hang up.

A couple of weeks later however, the FAA starts up a full blown enforcement action, not withstanding HSA being appeased. THey have his statement which is obviously easily verified with the LockMart FSS guys, but they still have him on edge for a month before admitting that he didn't do anything wrong.
 
These TFR's have REALLY changed flying. Having the charted airspace is no longer enough.
 
ZeroPapaGolf said:
AWM
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That's going to be my stop next time I need to go to Memphis. I've never used it but it seems convenient for any downtown business. I used to fly into MEM (AMR and Wilson) a lot but it's been several years since I've done it. West Memphis seems a lot easier.
 
I try to be a realist. I have been in the same place Hacker describes more times than I can remember and it's frustrating to no end when you miss out on a training opportunity due to airspace restrictions or factor traffic. I've done several presentations at local events and at Oshkosh last year describing what's going on in MOAs and some potential ways to introduce as much safety as possible for people who choose to fly through active MOAs. What I've found is that civilians and military pilots are two sets of people separated by a common language. (For those who've lived in the U.K. You'll know what I mean).

Most mil pilots aren't GA guys, some of them were for a while and gave it up and some never were. There are precious few of us with one foot in both worlds. (Although many more than when I started in the USAF). Mil guys have all seen first hand what goes on in MOAs and we all think back to when we were 23 year old punks with the keys to a t37 or t38 and told to go out to the MOA solo and practice aerobatics. We remember that we didn't clear our flight path as much as we should have. We remember how task saturated we were at the time and maybe we remember a buddy who had a mid air with a civilian sometime on a low level - or at least had a close call. We have a different thought process because of our experiences. We know that a 60x60 mile chunk of airspace can get real small real fast. We know the capabilities and limitations of our radar systems and how most controllers don't give us traffic updates for VFR entering a MOA (those controllers who do- THANK YOU!!!). All these things can be read on line, talked about in seminars and shown videos but if you haven't been there it's not real to you.

This is where most of the GA world is. The guys I talk to are mostly great guys and gals who like be the freedoms that we have here. Flying in the US NAS is amazing compared to most places in the world. We go direct - sometimes that's all we file - and it works!!! We do what we want when we want. If you don't believe this is true please go fly some GA in Europe! I love that we are raised as pilots to know there's a wide open sky out there for us; it's awesome. Many pilots I talk to associate MOAs with government control and taking away of freedoms. That's tough, emotional stuff for most Americans. Many pilots were taught that by their instructors (I was). They think of a faceless man in a black suit and sunglasses that loves nothing more than punishing citizens for fun. What they don't see is the mil student that has been working his butt off trying to pass a ride to fulfill his dream of becoming a pilot. He's behind the timeline in training but is a good kid and his IPs are trying to get him through. He has to complete 6-9 things on the ride to get through the ride. He doesn't get enough done because he holds high or terminates maneuvering because someone entered the MOA. He washes out of the program because there aren't enough training lines to get him yet another ride. See, we are always "playing war" as if it's that simple. Unless you've been there you don't know what it's like to train for combat. The things most pilots do - takeoff, navigation, enroute procedures, landing, etc is all the stuff that we don't discuss because it's a given. Most of the GA world hasn't been there - it's difficult to internalize and it's just easier to throw poo at what you don't know. "They're playing war games- screw 'em they can wait while I go through that MOA. Bunch of spoiled punks that don't have to pay for their gas like real pilots!" Maybe that's not what everyone says but when people are honest that's what a great deal of them have thought at one point. Again- two people separated by a common aviation language.

I stopped trying to get people to go around MOAs years ago. They are either going to or not and hardly anything will change their minds. In some places like Phoenix there are precious few alternatives to flying through MOAs. My advocation is more open dialog. https://sua.faa.gov/ is a great to to become familiar with what is scheduled to be hot along your route as well as who controls that airspace and can give you info on what's going on in there. If you are going to fly through a MOA, please ask the controllers to pass the words so the players: your altitude and rough route of flight - "9500 along the east side" gives us something to work with and keeps you safer. None of us (GA pilots) want more restricted areas. If one radio call keeps you safer while upping the chance that the military gets to complete their training that day what is the downside? Yes this doesn't cover farmer Joe in his cub but it covers most of us on here and that's a great start.
 
The above post is an example of the kind of information that GA pilots need to know!
 
@EvilEagle, you still commuting to blue-suit work in that beautiful T-Bone you showed me pics of a couple years ago?
 
There are routes that ATC will vector you thru. Not all the spaces are always hot, either. For example, Prescott to Needles to Lancaster doesn't go thru any MOA/restricted,,or at least didn't when I flew out there a few years ago.
 
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Hacker said:
@EvilEagle, you still commuting to blue-suit work in that beautiful T-Bone you showed me pics of a couple years ago?
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Naw man, living and working in Nola. I'm on mil leave from Delta. Been the DO here in NOLA for 18 months. 3 years till retirement and back to big D. A little hiatus from commuting.
 
EvilEagle said:
Naw man, living and working in Nola. I'm on mil leave from Delta. Been the DO here in NOLA for 18 months. 3 years till retirement and back to big D. A little hiatus from commuting.
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Congrats, brother, great to hear.
 
Went around Moody 2 yesterday coming back from SNF. There, I did my part. ;)
 
Blasted right through the middle of Paradise North - Yee Hah!!

(it was cold at the time)
 
EvilEagle said:
I stopped trying to get people to go around MOAs years ago. They are either going to or not and hardly anything will change their minds. In some places like Phoenix there are precious few alternatives to flying through MOAs. My advocation is more open dialog. https://sua.faa.gov/ is a great to to become familiar with what is scheduled to be hot along your route as well as who controls that airspace and can give you info on what's going on in there. If you are going to fly through a MOA, please ask the controllers to pass the words so the players: your altitude and rough route of flight - "9500 along the east side" gives us something to work with and keeps you safer. None of us (GA pilots) want more restricted areas. If one radio call keeps you safer while upping the chance that the military gets to complete their training that day what is the downside? Yes this doesn't cover farmer Joe in his cub but it covers most of us on here and that's a great start.
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@EvilEagle ... very well stated. :thumbsup:
 
FYI, My DPE didn't like it when I said i would fly around an MOA during our route planning scenario discussion. Without rehashing the whole discussion, I mentioned that I could but, routing around would have minimal to no impact on the flight and its purpose while making the flight slightly "simpler" for a low time pilot. He still didn't like the answer. I thought it was odd but not worth pushing when I just wanted his John Hancock as quickly as possible. I did ask for clarification on some of his other comments just not that one.

As a side note, when I got handed off to Travis AFB with FF on my first solo cross country, I got a little spooked and thought I had done something wrong. I hadn't and they were friendly when I gave a "say again..." I have zero idea what the day to day activities are at Travis and I wasn't entering their space. Just one of those things that happens on your solo cross countries. If i may get a little nostalgic, that was the day I felt like a pilot, smiling just typing this.
 
Freely fly through MOAs. If you want to see military aircraft on ADS-B fly to Las Vegas near the Restricted over Creech AFB and you will see the drones in the air since many are so equipped and they are usually flying low and slow enough to be detected.
 
Be glad there are SUAs for military ops! When I was a kid (mid 1960s) we'd have jets from Shaw AFB go supersonic passing over our farm. I thought the boom was cool as hell, but we were only 10 nm from a GA airport. Of course, I did not know that at the time. I'm glad there are speed limits for these guys now.
 
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N659HB said:
Be glad there are SUAs for military ops! When I was a kid (mid 1960s) we'd have jets from Shaw AFB go supersonic passing over our farm. I thought the boom was cool as hell, but we were only 10 nm from a GA airport. Of course, I did not know that at the time. I'm glad there are speed limits for these guys now.
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They still do it on a weekly basis out of Warner Robins GA. F-15s on post maint check flights bust it anywhere from FL 390 to FL550. It's also not in SUA. Very loud.
 
NoBShere said:
...As a side note, when I got handed off to Travis AFB with FF on my first solo cross country, I got a little spooked and thought I had done something wrong. I hadn't and they were friendly when I gave a "say again..." I have zero idea what the day to day activities are at Travis and I wasn't entering their space. Just one of those things that happens on your solo cross countries. If i may get a little nostalgic, that was the day I felt like a pilot, smiling just typing this.
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Travis Approach always handles that section of air space. It's routine. Same thing with Joshua Approach in the Edwards Air Force Base area.
 
Palmpilot said:
Travis Approach always handles that section of air space. It's routine. Same thing with Joshua Approach in the Edwards Air Force Base area.
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My cfi and I talked about that when I got back. I just wasn't expecting it. And why weren't you there to tell me that when it happened, of course then it wouldn't have been solo or I would have been carrying a passenger as a student...
 
NoBShere said:
My cfi and I talked about that when I got back. I just wasn't expecting it. And why weren't you there to tell me that when it happened, of course then it wouldn't have been solo or I would have been carrying a passenger as a student...
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Not blaming you, just trying to be helpful.
 
N659HB said:
These guys were much lower than that. Like 1000 AGL. Whole house would rattle.
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At that altitude, I'm surprised you didn't have windows broken on a regular basis then. Years ago, we had some F-18s go supersonic in a MOA at a few hundred feet and busted windows in the Hilton Head SC area. Major screw up and major complaints from the locals.

Just the middle GA complaints from the F-15s at WRB have them going in the warning area on occasion instead of over land.
 
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It would be interesting to see if our farm was within a MOA back then. Gamecock I is the closest now, but it's borders are nowhere near the farm.
 
NoBShere said:
FYI, My DPE didn't like it when I said i would fly around an MOA during our route planning scenario discussion. Without rehashing the whole discussion, I mentioned that I could but, routing around would have minimal to no impact on the flight and its purpose while making the flight slightly "simpler" for a low time pilot. He still didn't like the answer. I thought it was odd but not worth pushing when I just wanted his John Hancock as quickly as possible. I did ask for clarification on some of his other comments just not that one.

As a side note, when I got handed off to Travis AFB with FF on my first solo cross country, I got a little spooked and thought I had done something wrong. I hadn't and they were friendly when I gave a "say again..." I have zero idea what the day to day activities are at Travis and I wasn't entering their space. Just one of those things that happens on your solo cross countries. If i may get a little nostalgic, that was the day I felt like a pilot, smiling just typing this.
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Ooh, you should know what goes on in that Alert area before going through it.

Lots of very low time C-5 and KC-135 pilots. Travis is a logistics base with a training program.

But generally only during business hours on weekdays. It's totally quiet on weekends.
 
Velocity173 said:
At that altitude, I'm surprised you didn't have windows broken on a regular basis then. Years ago, we had some F-18s go supersonic in a MOA at a few hundred feet and busted windows in the Hilton Head SC area. Major screw up and major complaints from the locals.

Just the middle GA complaints from the F-15s at WRB have them going in the warning area on occasion instead of over land.
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Heck, I've gotten a noise complaint being supersonic while IN supersonic airspace, over the middle of nowhere in the NV desert……though I guess the complainant wouldn't have called it the middle of nowhere.
 
MAKG1 said:
Ooh, you should know what goes on in that Alert area before going through it.

Lots of very low time C-5 and KC-135 pilots. Travis is a logistics base with a training program.

But generally only during business hours on weekdays. It's totally quiet on weekends.
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Yes, it's good to be aware of that, although he may not have been in the alert area, since Travis Approach handles airspace outside it too.
 
azblackbird said:
Just to add to this, I noticed when reading the NOTAMS (at least here in AZ) the military is pretty good about making notification with the dates/times when a restricted area will be hot, thus allowing you to plan your flight accordingly.
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In practice you never need to fly into a Restricted area on a VFR flight plan. Even flying over the top of Bravo SLC you can fly between Restricteds and into Nevada if careful. MOAs and MTRs are never a problem.
 
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35 AoA said:
Heck, I've gotten a noise complaint being supersonic while IN supersonic airspace, over the middle of nowhere in the NV desert……though I guess the complainant wouldn't have called it the middle of nowhere.
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You'd think they've gotten used to it out there with all the high speed corridors. I was always amazed how loud it was over central GA since they're hitting the number around 50K up. Rattles the entire house.
 
citizen5000 said:
In practice you never need to fly into a Restricted area on a VFR flight plan. Even flying over the top of Bravo SLC you can fly between Restricteds and into Nevada if careful. MOAs and MTRs are never a problem.
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You don't need to but it may save a substantial amount of time if you're allowed. If they can route me through when it's hot but no hazardous activities are going on, I'll take them up on the shortcut.

I have maybe a few hundred hours in restricted / danger areas in the military and there were plenty of times nothing was going on and a civ aircraft could easily transition safely. Other times it was so busy we were a hazard to ourselves, let alone a non participant entering. :D
 
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