You don't have to look both ways before crossing a four lane highway either, but it's pretty foolish not to.
Flying through MOA and restricted areas
- Thread starter azblackbird
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azblackbird
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You're good. You explained it very well for those who didn't bother to read or comprehend the original question. However I do disagree on entering an MOA. Even though your not required, I still think you should contact ATC or the governing authority just to get any current traffic advisories or operations that may be taking place... wether with following or not.
texashikergal02
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If you're already on with FF, you can simply say 'xxx Center, is MOA xxx hot?" they'll advise. Quick and easy, and everyone is on the same page. And, it's on the tape.
bigred177
Cleared for Takeoff
^ this. Additionally, here, we have to stop all training when a non-participating plane enters the MOA. So while you're trucking through, we're flying in circles wasting time and burning gas waiting for you to leave. I don't know if it's like that with most places but it's not fun.
When I first got my PPL and would plan a flight I wouldn't give a second thought to a MOA. Now, I'd either ask if they're being used or avoid them completely. Very different being on the other side.
azblackbird
Pattern Altitude
I think you're confusing MOAs with restricted areas. We're talking VFR conditions here. You're not required to advise anybody when transitioning thru an MOA (purple hashed lines) under VFR. A restricted area (blue hashed lines) is mandatory communication (or requires total avoidance) lest you want to have a talk with TPTB. With that said, I would still contact ATC or whomever is the governing authority just to get any advisories or heads up on what I need to look for when going through an MOA.
texashikergal02
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Read post just above yours. There's a lot of confusion about both kinds of airspace, and I think we'll all learn from that.
azblackbird
Pattern Altitude
God I hope there's no confusion. You guys are suppose to be pilots for christsakes and know this stuff!
Fearless Tower
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I frequently hear ATC giving VFR guys recommended headings to avoid hot MOAs. Not quite the same legal requirement as a vector inside Class C/B, but still part of the whole advisory thing.
texashikergal02
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If I understand it correctly, the whole concept of a MOA is that it is a Memorandum of Agreement between the military and the civil aviation world to share some airspace that the military actually 'controls', as opposed to the FAA. There are published 'hot' and 'cold' times, but those can change depending on what the military needs, hence why one needs to inquire if the area is 'hot' outside of the published times. Sure, you can wander into to it at your own risk, but, why?
I answered a question with one simple answer.
Plenty of pilots as well as myself have flown throug MOA in the northeast many times with no issues. I haven't looked, but yet I haven't heard of any accidents resulting in pilots flying VFR through MOAs.
Shawn
En-Route
azblackbird
Pattern Altitude
I'm not quite so sure you do. Please read this!
For christsakes, if the pilots here in AZ (especially in the southern most parts of the state) couldn't fly or were afraid to fly through MOAs they'd never get anywhere. Same where I'm located. We have Luke AFB right next door and they're always out and about and active in many of the areas and MOAs that I really prefer to fly in or through.
Cooter
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Same here. I never gave MOAs a second thought until I started using them and realized how much training was lost because of non-participating VFR interlopers making their way through unannounced.
Cooter
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No issues for you maybe. You don't know what issues you caused those who were using the MOA for its designed purpose.
Given the size of most MOAs the amount of time and fuel I have to use to circumnavigate the MOA. The cost of the time and money needed for training is really not one of my concerns. If it is such an inconvenience for the users of the MOA, the government needs to reevaluate the policy.
Hacker
Pre-takeoff checklist
Well, I'm sure they apologize for being in your way...but since there are only a limited number of areas in the CONUS where high performance military aircraft can maneuver and train, the space and time are very valuable.
I've had the pleasure of taking a couple civilian pilots on incentive flights in both the F-15E and the T-38. To a T, every one I flew later said something to the effect of 'I'll never fly through a MOA again' after seeing what takes place inside them from the perspective of a participating high performance aircraft. Most guys don't understand how much altitude and real estate fast jet training uses, and they seem to have this bizarre idea that military jets all have some kind of magic radar sensor that can keep them aware and clear of non-participating traffic. TCAS wasn't designed to handle the vertical and angular velocities that fighter/trainer aircraft generate. Radar is a complicated machine to use well when the aircraft isn't maneuvering, so when there is maneuvering going on it provides very little SA on non-participating traffic.
None of those incentive flights with civilians even had all of the moving parts of an Large Force Exercise or other complicated training exercise that had to be stopped, re set-up, and (if fuel and time allowed) re-executed because of non-participating VFR traffic flying through the play area. In one of those really big MOAs there may be 10 or 15 aircraft that are all participating in a highly planned and carefully orchestrated scenario, and one GA airplane flying through the MOA makes all of them have to STOP doing what they're doing, wait until traffic is clear, then go back and set up the whole thing again. That's if they even have fuel to do so.
That's really a huge amount of taxpayer-funded time, money, and opportunity wasted.
Of course, none of this is even to mention the potential safety issue, which is arguably a bigger deal for everyone.
With all due respect to your fuel bill, please go find out when MOAs are hot, and by all means when they're cold go through there. When they're hot, though, don't think you're simply exercising your GA rights by flying through there to save gas. Not trying to have a wang-measuring contest, but you're really exposing yourself to needless risk and crapping on military training.
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Cooter
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It is a deficiency of character that wants a government solution to any problem. The answer isn't to change the law, and that certainly wouldn't be in your favor. The answer is to responsibly manage the freedoms allowed so that more burdensome and restrictive laws aren't necessary.
The solution for this problem is easy. Work around the MOAs if possible and if not, call ATC and work with them to minimize the impact you'll have. That's not asking too much unless your concern is only for yourself.
WannFly
Final Approach
Keep doing what u r doing, no one's stopping ya. Tell us all about ur excursions thru hot MOA, if not, NTSB reports are publicly available
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Show me some accidents resulting from MOA transits.
WannFly
Final Approach
Of there ain't any, good, is there a point inviting one?
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bigred177
Cleared for Takeoff
There probably aren't many because we're up there flying around in circles waiting for you to leave.
azblackbird
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LMAO...okay, now that's some funny s**t right there I tell ya.
Cooter
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LMAO...okay, now that's some funny s**t right there I tell ya.
Why is that funny? If you're serious, then you obviously have little idea of how MOAs work for the military users.
azblackbird
Pattern Altitude
Don't take it the wrong way. I just got a chuckle out of it. Nothing serious.
Concerning GA VFR operation basically you're sharing the airspace. Concerning IFR, not many ATC dudes are going to give a GA plane clearance unless they hear from you guys first and know your not conducting operations so they can maintain adequate separation. I could imagine it might be a pain in the butt to have to stop your games for awhile just because some rancher in a little no-radio Piper Cub decided to take off and fly around his property (which just so happens to be smack dab in the middle of your MOA) for an hour or so, but what are you going to do?
Cooter
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Ok, no big deal. But what he said is accurate, if you are flying through an active MOA the users are going to have to KIO and hold until the VFR traffic is clear. UNLESS, the VFR traffic has announced its intentions and is predictable, then they may be able to continue. But it's not games, at least it rarely is. A lot of time and effort goes into a training sortie and to have it incompleted because of a VFR joy-rider can be a real discouragement. Between Wx and maintenance, there are enough delays and impediments to training without the additional factor of Non-participating traffic busting up your scheduled event.
azblackbird
Pattern Altitude
I totally understand which is exactly why I would give you guys the common courtesy of at least communicating and getting any operational advisories before I go traipsing through the airspace, whether I'm legally bound to or not.
I thought you guys loved bad weather. Seems lately IMC flying has been the majority of Luke's operations. I guess they figure they can get in some good instrument training without having to worry so much about running into any GA guys. I don't mind it. Their approach path is near my house. There's a few every now and then that like to do a wide full afterburner approach right over our houses. I'm pretty sure they do that because a few of the guys in my neighborhood (having partied with them) are jet jocks and it seems they like to try and one-up each other.
I'll disagree with some of what was saying. IFR ATC is required to NOT route you through active MOAs or Warning and Restricted areas. It is always 100% on the pilot to dodge Prohibited areas under the reg. ATC isn't supposed to route you there either, but it won't save your ticket if they do.
On VFR unless you are in class B airspace (where restricted areas and moas usually aren't found), you are not being ROUTED by ATC, hence you can't assume that ATC will keep you out of the special use airspace. In fact, there's no regulatory reason why you can't enter a MOA (or Warning area) for that matter, though often it is inadvisable to do so.
I always inquire with ATC about R-areas. Sometimes they'll offer the warning about them being active, but other times they do not.
I used to work inside an R area. I can tell you, that if we've made it hot, there's good reason you should not be in there (though we watch for strays anyhow).
On VFR unless you are in class B airspace (where restricted areas and moas usually aren't found), you are not being ROUTED by ATC, hence you can't assume that ATC will keep you out of the special use airspace. In fact, there's no regulatory reason why you can't enter a MOA (or Warning area) for that matter, though often it is inadvisable to do so.
I always inquire with ATC about R-areas. Sometimes they'll offer the warning about them being active, but other times they do not.
I used to work inside an R area. I can tell you, that if we've made it hot, there's good reason you should not be in there (though we watch for strays anyhow).
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Velocity173
Correct. The separation in R areas is for aircraft they have separation responsibility for (IFR / VFR on top). However, like the other thread we had on the subject, real world they will keep you clear of R areas under FF. It's still the pilot's responsibility to preplan and stay clear. From@Gmonning:
This is a good thread. I deal with this daily. While I'm laying here "sleeping" between shifts, I feel like I can chime in. In my airspace I have R4501 in the middle of Missouri (and a lot of other military airspace). This is a live range with A10s and ground fire. When it goes hot, all aircraft in the NAS (that's anyone talking to ATC) must be 3miles laterally from the boundary. Two reasons, 1st, any aircraft inside the restricted area have to stay 2miles from the inside boundary. These are extremely high performance aircraft (F15, A10, B2, B1, B52 and I had two F35s earlier today) and while they are playing war games, they are not normally talking to us. If they get close to the boundary and we keep our guys at 3NM from our side, then there will always be the "required" 5miles ofseparation. We actually broadcast in the blind when an aircraft spills out of a military area. Basically we can put a pilot deviation on the aircraft. While you can argue the VFR pilots don't need 5 miles separation, if you are participating in the airspace system, ATC will want it. 2nd, our restricted area shoots live rounds! When we see an aircraft heading towards therestricted area (and not talking to us), it takes some time to shut the range down in a cease fire event. They physically gather the artillery and drive it down range to lock it up. Even VFR aircraft skirting the boundary will get the military on high alert. You thinktheir scouts can tell 3NM from 3.2NM from their post? No way. I've had numerous VFR aircraft on the boundary that remained clear (barely) and had the phone call requesting all info on the aircraft for a pilot deviation/suspension. I would hate to be a VFR guy flying through our restricted area by accident. ADS-B will also make it easier to track down anyone flying through the airspace. I give a wide berth on all the R airspace in my airplane!
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Slight 7500... Is there a regulation to back that up? During my final instrument progress check, I planned my XC to avoid all MOA's along the way since they were all published to be active during the hypothetical flight. The chief flight instructor recommended I learn more about MOA's and suggested that I should have planned straight through them. My instrument checkride is Thursday, so I've been digging around trying to find something regulatory to back up that ATC won't let you through an active MOA under IFR.
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The problem is, MOA conditions change rapidly. Even the air tasking order (schedule) we received wasn't all that accurate. The MOA might technically be "hot" but there might not be aircraft in it. They're just going by the scheduled or times of the NOTAM.
A lot of MOAs, the aircraft aren't in contact with the controlling agency (ATC) either. Often, that's when you'll get terminated under FF. They don't want to deal with the liability and the increased "workload." Sometimes military ATC is in direct contact with participants and falls under the using agency and you can get FF with them.
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Velocity173
The simple fact that the definition of MOA separates the participants from IFR non participating aircraft is pretty clear. Now, CAN they allow you to enter? Yep, if that facility has a letter of procedure between the using agency and the controlling agency allowing it. You can even fly through a hot restricted area IFR if a letter covers it. It's not something I would ever plan on though. From the controller's manual:
Unless clearance of nonparticipating aircraft in/ through/adjacent to a prohibited/restricted/ warning area/MOA/ATCAA/stationary ALTRV is provided for in a letter of agreement (LOA) or letter of procedure (LOP), separate nonparticipating aircraft from active special use airspace, ATCAAs, and stationary ALTRVs by the following minima:
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MAKG1
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SUAs are independent of airspace class, and they can overlap. For instance, Pensacola has two Class C airports within its MOA.
eetrojan
Pattern Altitude
NOTE: this comment is responsive to jeremyk13's off-topic question which only relates to IFR flight.
And, just a student, so take this with a grain of salt.
The FAR includes a definition, 14 CFR 1.1, that says a military operations area (MOA) is “airspace established outside Class A airspace to separate or segregate certain nonhazardous military activities from IFR Traffic and to identify for VFR traffic where theses (sic) activities are conducted.”
In its glossary, the Instrument Flying Handbook (IFH) similarly defines a military operations area (MOA) as “Airspace established for the purpose of separating certain military training activities from IFR traffic.”
Both of these definitions make it sound like ATC will categorically not provide IFR traffic with service through an MOA. I always thought that was the case.
However, that doesn’t appear to be true because the IFH (1-4) says “Whenever an MOA is being used, nonparticipating IFR traffic may be cleared through an MOA if IFR separation can be provided by ATC. Otherwise, ATC will reroute or restrict nonparticipating IFR aircraft.”
So, per the IFH at least, ATC may let you through an active MOA under IFR.
Thus, I think your instructor may be correct in saying for purposes of planning an IFR flight (note, not VFR) you shouldn’t preemptively plan around them, but rather should plan to go straight through the MOAs because ATC *may* clear you through them even if they’re active.
It’s my inexperienced sense that if ATC needs/wants to keep you outside of the MOA, they’ll give you a different clearance or, I suppose, reroute you when you’re airborne.
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Cooter
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What you're saying is true, but Pensacola MOAs are above the airports. Do you mean Eglin?
I can think of R airspace that lies within a Class C, MOAs would be a little different. The Class C in a MOA would still be treated the same way for Mil traffic using the MOA. R airspace would have some type of LOA specifying the use but would most likely allow operations within the C.
Ravioli
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Unwanted Guest - Perma-ban Pending
@register@teamandras.com is only discussing IFR. The OP is not even a pre-solo student yet. He puts forth that he is still auditioning CFxx and that he is unsure whether to use a double I for for primary... the list goes on...
Meanwhile. on the specific question of SUAs, plan to avoid them, and if you go through them you're ahead of plan. That's good. If you plan to go through them and can't, you could have fuel issues, diversions, etc. That's bad.
Meanwhile. on the specific question of SUAs, plan to avoid them, and if you go through them you're ahead of plan. That's good. If you plan to go through them and can't, you could have fuel issues, diversions, etc. That's bad.
citizen5000
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IFR
Some or all of flight time in IMC and stay within controlled (may include MOA/Restricted) airspace under radar control at all times. Separation from other aircraft, the ground, and objects is responsibility of air traffic control.
VFR
Will spend no flight time in IMC and may be inside controlled (may include MOA/Restricted) or uncontrolled airspace and may or may not have radar coverage. Separation from everything is responsibility of the pilot at all times, even when radar identified.
Some or all of flight time in IMC and stay within controlled (may include MOA/Restricted) airspace under radar control at all times. Separation from other aircraft, the ground, and objects is responsibility of air traffic control.
VFR
Will spend no flight time in IMC and may be inside controlled (may include MOA/Restricted) or uncontrolled airspace and may or may not have radar coverage. Separation from everything is responsibility of the pilot at all times, even when radar identified.
USMCF18
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With all due respect to your fuel bill, please go find out when MOAs are hot, and by all means when they're cold go through there. When they're hot, though, don't think you're simply exercising your GA rights by flying through there to save gas. Not trying to have a wang-measuring contest, but you're really exposing yourself to needless risk and crapping on military training.[/QUOTE]
If I had a nickel for every time this happened....
If I had a nickel for every time this happened....
If you fly through active MOA's they get to pretend to shoot you down. So you are actually helping them train
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Velocity173
If I had a nickel for every time this happened....[/QUOTE]
If I had a nickel for every time I vectored an IFR aircraft around Beaufort 2.
Unless things have changed, they never shutdown MOA ops for VFRs when I was there. I know we worked VFR aircraft FF while "attacks" were in progress.
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JM
Actually, the question is not fully answered on POA until:
1) someone is challenged to find the appropriate chapter and verse to support their claim
2) someone not related to item 1 cites a supporting passage for their view which others dispute as applicable
3) Timbeck3 posts a picture of a bunny with a pancake on their head in an attempt to let cooler heads prevail.
Alternate options for item 3:
Pulling the chute;
Suggesting an AOA could resolve the matter;
Complaints that the posts are insensitive to parties not present in the conversation.