Flying Magazine article

[donjohnston]

Furthermore, show me an example of an accidental discharge on a felony car stop.

Not sure if this counts as "accidental", but it was definitely an unintended discharge.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56724798

As in many of these cases, the person who got shot made some poor choices which contributed to the outcome.

 

[Dana]

If me getting handcuffed for a small bit of time is some way of me contributing to cops being able to do their job the way they need to, then I'm OK with that.

Good for you. I'm not OK with that.

Granted I haven't read Flying magazine in awhile, but given the demographics of their audience, I doubt they're pushing the "defund police" agenda. But police officers treating citizens with respect isn't incompatible with a law and order attitude.

 

[Todd82]

The actual issue is King, like Martha Lunken, ran out of new ideas to write about so they're recycling stories. That's why I "cancelled" Flying Mag awhile back, not the politics or "cancel culture" just that it's stale. Just because these are "legends" (although I'll debate that Lunken never earned that status) doesn't mean they still need published if they don't have anything new and worthwhile to write.

The timing was probably coincidental.

 

[luvflyin]

Touchy issue. One of my best friends is a cop, he won't even arrest anybody anymore because he feels the DA and the Leadership of the PD aren't standing behind the cops nor prosecuting the evil doers.

On the other hand, the police have become way too militarized and too anti civil rights. We have a constitution for a reason, the police think it's just some thing they can get around.

No knock raids, illegal searches, arresting people for filming on a public street, etc. etc. Typical "the rules are for you, not for me" behavior.

If you think it's a one of situation, go watch Audit the Audit on Youtube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCc-0YpRpqgA5lPTpSQ5uo-Q

Are you serious? He has just decided he isn’t arresting anybody, anymore?

 

[Morgan3820]

Not sure if this counts as "accidental", but it was definitely an unintended discharge.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56724798

As in many of these cases, the person who got shot made some poor choices which contributed to the outcome.

That is wackado logic. Following your line of thought we could say, "Because she drank too much she contributed to her sexual assault at the party". Or "Having two legs contributed to his having the wrong leg amputated by the surgeon"

If I killed someone through extreme negligence (pulling a gun instead of a taser) or ( I didn't think the prop gun would be loaded), should I not be held liable?

 

[wheaties]

The recycling of aviation stuff bothers me, too. I mean, as much as I like Mike Busch, if he makes a new article you better believe it'll be in this month's Cessna Pilot, Cirrus Pilot, and AOPA Flying Magazine. If not the same month, than 1 month apart. Half of those things share the same freaking content.

Now, as far as "defund the police," I hate that phrase, too. Talk to a conservative, it's about getting rid of police so we can have anarchy. Talk to a liberal, it's about taking budget away from military grade equipment and investing it in education, mental health, fire departments, etc. It's a meaningless phrase because it doesn't mean the same thing to anyone.

 

[TonyG]

I did many felony car stops in my career and weapons are almost always at low ready (not aimed at the suspect).

This photo was from a pretty good distance, but doesn't look like "low ready" to me. If I was the Kings, I'd be PO'd by the time it was over. And I might even keep writing about it for a couple dozen years. Look, people were detained, just like in Soviet Russia, based on some bonehead mistake by the feds and the locals (either could have figured it out). "Ooops, our bad. Sorry, at least you're not dead!" Great.

MidwestPA24 has it right, at the time, this was one of many aircraft stops and searches: federal outfits were requesting detention of GA flights, many just because they were long VFR cross countries which looked "suspicious" to some Tom Clancy wannabe somewhere. This one happened to hit a "celebrity couple", had the attached photo, and got more attention. It seemed to stop after this: The government either stopped, or the feds got better at narrowing in on legit bad guys.

 

[Wagondriver]

This country, or at least where I live, has been guilty until proven innocent for a long time.

Harassment by cop is pretty common and easy these days, with the complaining witness having little to no downside.

 

[Clip4]

Shoot the Kings? Watch enough of their videos you will be ready to shoot yourself.

 

[TonyG]

Shoot the Kings? Watch enough of their videos you will be ready to shoot yourself.

Ha! Been flying more than 35 years, and I've NEVER seen one of their videos....

 

[unsafervguy]

i think that one thing this incident points out is that local and state level law enforcement is very lacking in understanding of aviation in general. I think that this lack of understanding leads to problems because they do not know the structure and regulation of aviation they revert back to what they deal with in the rest of the world with the population. I fully understand that a grand theft stop of an auto can be a very dangerous and scary event. and they fall back to what they know and the training they receive in that area.
a perfect example, years ago i was at a small fly in at private airpark in texas. it was a somewhat short strip with trees on the end. a pilot landed long and fast and jumped on the brakes in a RV and put it on its back. a group if us got him out of the plane and a doctor that was there looked him over and ask that an ambulance be called just in case. since there were still people in the pattern, we righted the aircraft and pulled it off the the side. about that time a texas state trooper rolled up lights a blazing and hoped out and started getting upset that we were messing with his accident scene. he was on private property where no crime had been committed and everybody there was fully aware of what the NTSB and FAA would need to complete there reports. but his lack of education about aviation led him to treat it as he would with any car wreck.

 

[N747JB]

We traded my dad’s original 182 to Van Bortel for a 310 in 1992. We wanted to keep our N number, so they applied a number similar to the ones Cessna used in 73. The guys that bought it lived in Texas and one day the landed at a small airport and they were suddenly surrounded by DEA agents with automatic weapons! Get out, face down on the ramp! It turned out someone had been using that N number on a stolen plane to smuggle drugs! Scared them boys to death!

 

[midwestpa24]

i think that one thing this incident points out is that local and state level law enforcement is very lacking in understanding of aviation in general.

The big issue that was created years ago, was local law enforcement getting "the call" from Homeland Security ordering them to stop and detain NXXXX aircraft at this airport as a matter of national security. Your locals really had no idea what or why they were getting "the call", and really didn't have a procedure to deal with it, so they threw everything at it.

 

[donjohnston]

That is wackado logic. Following your line of thought we could say, "Because she drank too much she contributed to her sexual assault at the party". Or "Having two legs contributed to his having the wrong leg amputated by the surgeon"

If I killed someone through extreme negligence (pulling a gun instead of a taser) or ( I didn't think the prop gun would be loaded), should I not be held liable?

False_equivalence: A logical fallacy in which an equivalence is drawn between two subjects based on flawed or false reasoning

In this case, Daunte Wright was informed he was being arrested due to an outstanding warrant for fleeing from police and possession of a firearm. While being handcuffed, he began resisting arrest and got back in the car. At that point the officer fired her gun instead of the taser she thought she had.

Look at it using the same "wackado" logic we use when discussing aircraft accidents. Either holes in the swiss cheese or links in the chain. In this case, what would have been the result if Daunte Wright had not resisted arrest? I'm guessing that he would be alive and walking around. Probably wouldn't even be in jail now. And this also applies to the officer; had she pulled her taser instead of her firearm, that too would have broken the chain.

All it takes is for one thing to break the chain or keep the holes from aligning.

Does clear things up for you? Or would you like to say I'm the same as Hitler?

 

[Tarheelpilot]

The recycling of aviation stuff bothers me, too. I mean, as much as I like Mike Busch, if he makes a new article you better believe it'll be in this month's Cessna Pilot, Cirrus Pilot, and AOPA Flying Magazine. If not the same month, than 1 month apart. Half of those things share the same freaking content.

Now, as far as "defund the police," I hate that phrase, too. Talk to a conservative, it's about getting rid of police so we can have anarchy. Talk to a liberal, it's about taking budget away from military grade equipment and investing it in education, mental health, fire departments, etc. It's a meaningless phrase because it doesn't mean the same thing to anyone.

like most things it’s important to watch what people do after they say what they will do. You’ll start to recognize confidence men all over the place.

 

[luvflyin]

Good for you. I'm not OK with that.

Granted I haven't read Flying magazine in awhile, but given the demographics of their audience, I doubt they're pushing the "defund police" agenda. But police officers treating citizens with respect isn't incompatible with a law and order attitude.

Are you saying that a police officer cuffing a citizen is in itself an act of disrespect?

 

[Tarheelpilot]

Here is a good example of why cops should not pull out their firearms until there is someone to shoot. I think it is telling that his defense was essentially it was dark, he was scared and it was an accident.

Im not ok with anyone pointing a gun at me and restraining me in handcuffs for all interactions just make themselves feel better. At that point it’s not officer safety.

https://www.philasun.com/stateside/nyc-officer-convicted-of-manslaughter-in-stairwell-shooting/

 

[Morgan3820]

False_equivalence: A logical fallacy in which an equivalence is drawn between two subjects based on flawed or false reasoning

In this case, Daunte Wright was informed he was being arrested due to an outstanding warrant for fleeing from police and possession of a firearm. While being handcuffed, he began resisting arrest and got back in the car. At that point the officer fired her gun instead of the taser she thought she had.

Look at it using the same "wackado" logic we use when discussing aircraft accidents. Either holes in the swiss cheese or links in the chain. In this case, what would have been the result if Daunte Wright had not resisted arrest? I'm guessing that he would be alive and walking around. Probably wouldn't even be in jail now. And this also applies to the officer; had she pulled her taser instead of her firearm, that too would have broken the chain.

All it takes is for one thing to break the chain or keep the holes from aligning.

Does clear things up for you? Or would you like to say I'm the same as Hitler?

I agree with you actually. But five seconds before the individual was shot , Of the two, which one was the highly trained professional? Which one was the troubled youth? If the cop viewed themselves as the highly trained professional with 20+ years of experience, when push came to shove they didn’t live up to the hype. As a trained professional, they are there to keep the holes from lining up. They need to find another line of work.

And why do you bring up Hitler? Really? I am one of the more conservative minded people you’ll ever meet. I demand personal accountability from everybody, regardless. I own my failures . I expect others to do the same.

 

[mryan75]

What bothered me about this incident was that it was obvious the Kings posed no threat to law enforcement but the response was over the top. Once it was established that they were cooperating, the use of force became un necessary. They should not have been handcuffed.

I was not there but from what I read, the police response was a bit over the top.

Unfortunately this is what happens in a country with 3 guns for every citizen. And I have sympathy for the police. Plenty of cops have been killed by people who “clearly weren’t posing a threat”. It’s a result of the environment in this country unfortunately.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

Back to cancelling your Flying subscription....

I did after about 10 years - I've been flying for 30. There is only so much you can write at that level in an aviation rag before it gets redundant. Just remember they are hoping to target newer and prospective pilots who didn't read the same article 20 years ago.

 

[luvflyin]

Is there a link to the Flying article?

 

[steingar]

More Cops died last year from COVID than gunshots, but heaven forbid they get their sixes vaccinated. Being a pilot is more dangerous than being a cop.

 

[donjohnston]

I agree with you actually. But five seconds before the individual was shot , Of the two, which one was the highly trained professional? Which one was the troubled youth? If the cop viewed themselves as the highly trained professional with 20+ years of experience, when push came to shove they didn’t live up to the hype. As a trained professional, they are there to keep the holes from lining up. They need to find another line of work.

Last time I checked, the job of the uniformed police officer was to enforce the laws, investigate crimes, maintain the peace. When did it become the job of the police to predict and prevent people from doing stupid things?

And why do you bring up Hitler? Really? I am one of the more conservative minded people you’ll ever meet. I demand personal accountability from everybody, regardless. I own my failures . I expect others to do the same.

Yes, really. You're the one that started with the false equivalency. I just figured that was your next tactic. I'm not sure what your political leanings or failures have to do with that.

 

[Morgan3820]

Last time I checked, the job of the uniformed police officer was to enforce the laws, investigate crimes, maintain the peace. When did it become the job of the police to predict and prevent people from doing stupid things?

Always, Part of the ‘serve and protect’.

Yes, really. You're the one that started with The false equivalency[/QUOTE]

You’re the only one calling it a false equivalency. My response got two likes. Yours only got one. The polls say, I win by 100%.

 

[Sierra_Hotel]

Could be. I dropped my subscription to Flying after they dipped their toe into global warming - and they weren't talking about more efficient aircraft engines.

 

[donjohnston]

You’re the only one calling it a false equivalency. My response got two likes. Yours only got one. The polls say, I win by 100%.

Now that's just sad that someone thinks accuracy can be determined by group approval.

Same kind of people get their news from Facebook.

 

[Morgan3820]

Now that's just sad that someone thinks accuracy can be determined by group approval.

Same kind of people get their news from Facebook.

Perhaps, but it’s more than what you got.
And I don’t have a Facebook account either. keep trying, I got all day, well, until 1630

 

[Robert Gee]

I know you are but what am I?

 

[Silvaire]

The term "defund the police" was an unfortunate choice of words for an issue that I think goes back to at least 30 years ago. It was around the time after the gulf war that I began to notice some changes. It began with seeing US military personnel appearing in public in combat uniform on American soil. Next thing you know everyone is in cammo which just seemed odd for guys on an Air Force base in California or while buying diapers at the Wal Mart. Then slowly it spread to the police who began to look less like Andy Taylor and much more like soldiers. There was perhaps a transfer of surplus military gear to civilian PD's after the war but in general they were all gearing up and dressing up to look more intimidating and less accommodating. Maybe tactics, training and policies began to shift as well. Eventually though we began to see pictures like this one.



Then along came 9/11 and things just got worse. We like to blame the police but maybe it's us that is the problem.

I don't know what the answer is. Certainly it is not to defund the police but I wish we could get back to a point of mutual respect and that park rangers could be park rangers again rather than armed enforcers.

 

[Robert Gee]

This fits better here than the accident thread so....

Speaking of JFK Jr, did you read the latest bat**** crazy QAnon theory? I would say you can't make this stuff up ... but someone did.

So ICYMI and for mocking purposes only, in today's DallasNews paper, the one that actually gets ink on my fingers and Ill likely use later to wipe something up, you know actually useful. I'd could link but...paywall.

Scores of QAnon believers gathered in downtown Dallas in the hopes that John F. Kennedy Jr. would appear, heralding the reinstatement of [the former guy] as president. ...first gathered Monday night...Tuesday there were several hundred people near Dealy Plaza...supporters of Q[uaks] believe that he has spent the last 22 years in hiding. ...[they] said that after [45] was reinstated as president he would step down and JFK Jr. would become president. [45] will become King of Kings.
....
Some said they expected a revelation Tuesday at the Rolling Stones concert.
....
Micki Larson-Olson, wore a Q-themed Captain America costume...she not only believes JFK Jr. is alive- she also believes that his father was never
assassinated and that the 104-year-old will appear to help usher in [the] administration.
How will she react when the former president and his dead son do not show up? [the paper asked] "we'll figure that something happened in the plan that made it not safe to do it...if it doesn't go down how I believe it will, that's OK. We'll just figure it just wasn't the right time."

People like this is why Elvis stays hidden!

 

[Tarheelpilot]

The term "defund the police" was an unfortunate choice of words for an issue that I think goes back to at least 30 years ago. It was around the time after the gulf war that I began to notice some changes. It began with seeing US military personnel appearing in public in combat uniform on American soil. Next thing you know everyone is in cammo which just seemed odd for guys on an Air Force base in California or while buying diapers at the Wal Mart. Then slowly it spread to the police who began to look less like Andy Taylor and much more like soldiers. There was perhaps a transfer of surplus military gear to civilian PD's after the war but in general they were all gearing up and dressing up to look more intimidating and less accommodating. Maybe tactics, training and policies began to shift as well. Eventually though we began to see pictures like this one.

View attachment 101485

Then along came 9/11 and things just got worse. We like to blame the police but maybe it's us that is the problem.

I don't know what the answer is. Certainly it is not to defund the police but I wish we could get back to a point of mutual respect and that park rangers could be park rangers again rather than armed enforcers.

We are the problem in that we have accepted the militarization of law enforcement. That transition along with most of the trends of law enforcement encroachment of individual rights has been centered around the war on drugs. That is very much our fault.

So. I agree with you but define our culpability differently.

 

[Doug Reid]

Our country is a lot more dangerous than when I was a kid...we never locked our doors, we knew everyone who lived on our street, and the adjacent streets as well. We all looked out for each other...when we saw something that looked wrong, we investigated. Now people film a woman being raped for 20 minutes and don't try to help.

When people demonize all cops for the actions of a few , this is what happens.
The news media has a field day every time a story breaks about a bad cop....good deeds don't increase viewership and ratings.

Same thing happens every time a plane crash happens...we are all dangerous and suspect if we are pilots .

I apologize for the rant, but I had to sit next to a table last night where a little girl stood up in her seat, and ran all around the restaurant while her parents and grand parents did nothing for 40 minutes. I blame a lot of our problems on poor parenting.IBTL

 

[Tarheelpilot]

This fits better here than the accident thread so....


So ICYMI and for mocking purposes only, in today's DallasNews paper, the one that actually gets ink on my fingers and Ill likely use later to wipe something up, you know actually useful. I'd could link but...paywall.

Scores of QAnon believers gathered in downtown Dallas in the hopes that John F. Kennedy Jr. would appear, heralding the reinstatement of [the former guy] as president. ...first gathered Monday night...Tuesday there were several hundred people near Dealy Plaza...supporters of Q[uaks] believe that he has spent the last 22 years in hiding. ...[they] said that after [45] was reinstated as president he would step down and JFK Jr. would become president. [45] will become King of Kings.
....
Some said they expected a revelation Tuesday at the Rolling Stones concert.
....
Micki Larson-Olson, wore a Q-themed Captain America costume...she not only believes JFK Jr. is alive- she also believes that his father was never
assassinated and that the 104-year-old will appear to help usher in [the] administration.
How will she react when the former president and his dead son do not show up? [the paper asked] "we'll figure that something happened in the plan that made it not safe to do it...if it doesn't go down how I believe it will, that's OK. We'll just figure it just wasn't the right time."

People like this is why Elvis stays hidden!

man. Lots of broad assumptions there that I would love to discuss. Pot meet kettle lol

 

[Morgan3820]

I’m not sure it’s more dangerous. I just think we hear about the bad things more. 24 hour news through endless outlets has made us neurotic. I blame Ted Turner for starting everything. There’s a lot of stuff on the news that I don’t really need to know about. I don’t need to know about a bad car crash in 10 states away. 30 years ago it would never have been on the news.

But I do agree about the bad parenting. I would’ve called them out. What happened to babysitters? When young, my parents went out to dinner, a babysitter came over and fed me popcorn and candy until my parents returned.

 

[Robert Gee]

man. Lots of broad assumptions there that I would love to discuss. Pot meet kettle lol

My only assumption is that a rational person might would enjoy a peak into the lunacy, maybe join in on the mockery, and with a dash of hyperbolic irony for levity. What did you read into it? Did you decipher a code?

 

[Silvaire]

I’m not sure it’s more dangerous. I just think we hear about the bad things more. 24 hour news through endless outlets has made us neurotic...

There is a lot of truth in that. The idea that we used to not lock our doors... well, yea when we lived in a small town. There are still small towns but fewer, most of them have grown into bigger towns or whole swaths of territory have become semi-urban. There are just a lot more people now. Overall I'm going to say that in many ways things are better now. We tend to look at the past through rose colored glasses. I saw this documentary about a guy who got drafted in 1967 and sent to Viet Nam. He was just a Missouri farm boy who had never been out of his home town, got sent to boot camp then put on a ship. On the way over they stopped in Okinawa and were given liberty. All those kids from all those different places thrown together, got liquored up and before you know it a race riot broke out. Six dead soldiers and they hadn't even gotten to 'Nam yet. That story never made it onto the six o'clock news.

So things weren't all great back in the days...

 

[Tarheelpilot]

There is a lot of truth in that. The idea that we used to not lock our doors... well, yea when we lived in a small town. There are still small towns but fewer, most of them have grown into bigger towns or whole swaths of territory have become semi-urban. There are just a lot more people now. Overall I'm going to say that in many ways things are better now. We tend to look at the past through rose colored glasses. I saw this documentary about a guy who got drafted in 1967 and sent to Viet Nam. He was just a Missouri farm boy who had never been out of his home town, got sent to boot camp then put on a ship. On the way over they stopped in Okinawa and were given liberty. All those kids from all those different places thrown together, got liquored up and before you know it a race riot broke out. Six dead soldiers and they hadn't even gotten to 'Nam yet. That story never made it onto the six o'clock news.

So things weren't all great back in the days...

More than half of my adult life I’ve lived in places where I never locked my door or removed the key from the ignition. Never once had a problem.

 

[Silvaire]

More than half of my adult life I’ve lived in places where I never locked my door or removed the key from the ignition. Never once had a problem.

Well, to be fair, most of us could probably get by fine with unlocked doors but as @Morgan3820 pointed out we are assaulted 24/7 with horror news. If someone does go through your unlocked door to rip you off chances are it's someone you know who happens to know that you don't lock your door. You say "never once" had a problem but what if you "once" did, just one time? Would you still leave the door unlocked? Or would your sense of safety be forever tainted?

 

[Tarheelpilot]

Well, to be fair, most of us could probably get by fine with unlocked doors but as @Morgan3820 pointed out we are assaulted 24/7 with horror news. If someone does go through your unlocked door to rip you off chances are it's someone you know who happens to know that you don't lock your door. You say "never once" had a problem but what if you "once" did, just one time? Would you still leave the door unlocked? Or would your sense of safety be forever tainted?

I actually thought about it at the time. Decided I would continue living with the assumption of honest people around me. This was also after my time in law enforcement. Funny thing… after being a law enforcement officer I trust the general public more and cops less. Kinda ironic.

but I’m also much more situationally aware. Threat levels vary.

 

[ksandrew]

Hi All.
I quickly read through the above posts and one fact that was not mentioned but reported at the time. The registration number had belonged to a plane involved in a crime 27 years before this stop, the kings had a brand new demo 182 on loan from Cessna, with the re-issued tail number. If law enforcement are not capable of keeping their information up to date they need to refrain from forwarding it to other agencies. There are 18,000 police agencies in the US so co-operation is necessary. similar things happen with trucks back when you got a new number every year.