Flying for Work - Liability

[mjburian]

I have a meeting in Cincinnati in May and can't find a scheduled flight that makes sense. The "easiest" flight is through O'Hare and then on to Cincinnati, with other options taking me through Charlotte, Denver or Dallas (none of which make much sense from Milwaukee).

I mentioned to my boss that I could likely fly myself there cheaper and in less time and he seemed to be on board with the idea... until the question of liability came up. His concern is that the company may become liable if something happens on my flight. It's just me going, so shouldn't be a regulatory issue but does anyone know how I could find more information about corporate liability so I can (hopefully) take this ~3 hour flight in the club plane vs spending 6+ hours dealing with airlines each way?

 

[Shepherd]

I think you will find they are more concerned with you falling out of the sky and killing someone, than they are with you falling out of the sky and just killing yourself.
I had this "problem" with IBM decades ago, and just ignored them. I submitted mileage equivalent to driving, and no one ever questioned it.

 

[mjburian]

I think you will find they are more concerned with you falling out of the sky and killing someone, than they are with you falling out of the sky and just killing yourself.

I had this "problem" with IBM decades ago, and just ignored them. I submitted mileage equivalent to driving, and no one ever questioned it.

I agree that that's probably the bigger concern. I'm wondering if we can just call it "personal travel" until I'm safely back at home, when I'd submit for reimbursement.

 

[Kristin]

The risk is low, but the employer is on the hook if you hurt someone other than yourself, and the victim(s) figure out to sue your employer. I believe that most corporate general liability policies exclude aviation, which could leave your employer uninsured for the loss. That would be the first thing to check.

 

[Bonchie]

Unless the company requires that you fly yourself then I don't think they should hold any liability. But our court system unfortunately disagrees.

Logically, a personal travel decision should be a personal travel decision. My job requires me to get there somehow. If I choose to drive and kill someone along the way, no one would have standing to sue my company.

But for some reason if I choose to fly, totally of my own personal choice, they can sue the company big time. That's the world we live in.

 

[PPC1052]

If I choose to drive and kill someone along the way, no one would have standing to sue my company.

Are you sure? I don't know what state you are in, but I suspect that is not true.

 

[Kristin]

Are you sure? I don't know what state you are in, but I suspect that is not true.

You are correct. If an employer sends you somewhere, you are acting with the course and scope of your employment and the employer is liable under the old common law doctrine called Respondeat Superior. The policy consideration behind that is to prevent employers from making money while causing injury, and leaving their employees to take the rap.

Believe me, no matter your intention, when you crash into a busload of kids and nuns, once your estate gets sued, your next of kin will immediately cross-complain against your employer for indemnity as they don't want to be impoverished by being left holding the bag.

 

[bflynn]

Yes, under current tort laws, he could be liable, perhaps for millions. Yes, it sucks. No, I don't see it getting fixed any time soon.

Yes, I wish it were otherwise, it would be one of the greatest boosts GA could get.

 

[RudyP]

I have been flying myself on business trips for 8 years and probably hundreds of flights at two different companies. My general policy - don't ask, don't tell. My boss (company CEO so I have some air cover) knows I do it, my HR/risk people don't need to be part of the discussion.

 

[RotorDude]

When I worked for a relatively large corporation, I flew myself a lot on business. At some point they required to be added in a named insured rider on my insurance policy (for X dollars liability protection). They agreed to pay the extra cost of that rider and the higher liability limit (which was not much). I think that's the best way to go in the OP's situation, even if the OP has to pay for the rider himself (but hopefully still deduct it as a business expense).
Edit: IOW, OP should discuss it with both his boss and insurance carrier to find an acceptable solution.

 

[wsuffa]

Depends on the company. Some prohibit it outright. Some require certain pilot standards (such as instrument rating or being a named-insured). Most companies that have private aviation departments (such a two I have worked for) will likely have liability coverage, which lessens the liability loss concern.

 

[txflyer]

You could take two paid sick days the two days of travel if you have sick time built up. No liability.

As far as the public is concerned suing the company, you were off sick and decided to fly those two days....

 

[wsuffa]

You could take two paid sick days the two days of travel if you have sick time built up. No liability.

As far as the public is concerned suing the company, you were off sick and decided to fly those two days....

Best to think twice about this strategy. A good lawyer will drive a truck through it.

 

[Anymouse]

It's kinda funny, but my current company, and my previous company both have policies against personal flying for business, despite the fact that I'm working for them as a pilot.

Go figure.

 

[txflyer]

Best to think twice about this strategy. A good lawyer will drive a truck through it.

A good lawyer will free a murderer....

 

[MikeELP]

You could take two paid sick days the two days of travel if you have sick time built up. No liability.

As far as the public is concerned suing the company, you were off sick and decided to fly those two days....

So you were too sick to go work, but OK to fly?

 

[txflyer]

So you were too sick to go work, but OK to fly?

Morning sickness...

 

[woodchucker]

So you were too sick to go work, but OK to fly?

It's called Altitude Deprivation Sickness (ADS). Happens all the time to me when there is 3 feet of fresh up in the Wasatch Mountains.

 

[mjburian]

It's called Altitude Deprivation Sickness (ADS). Happens all the time to me when there is 3 feet of fresh up in the Wasatch Mountains.

LOL..

 

[Kristin]

Best to think twice about this strategy. A good lawyer will drive a truck through it.

It won't even take a good lawyer. One that is still breathing can show that the primary reason the OP was in the air was because you were going someplace for the company. The OP's spouse will testify to that and the company will not be able to deny it.

 

[timwinters]

It's just me going, so shouldn't be a regulatory issue but does anyone know how I could find more information about corporate liability so I can (hopefully) take this ~3 hour flight in the club plane vs spending 6+ hours dealing with airlines each way?

Heck, worst case scenario, you can drive it in less than 6 hours as long as you avoid rush hour in CHI and IND.

Back when I was still regularly flying commercially if I could drive it in 6 hours I would drive...after 9/11 that tipping point became 8 hours. I don't like driving much but it's still far better than riding the cattle tube.

 

[mjburian]

Heck, worst case scenario, you can drive it in less than 6 hours as long as you avoid rush hour in CHI and IND.



Back when I was still regularly flying commercially if I could drive it in 6 hours I would drive...after 9/11 that tipping point became 8 hours. I don't like driving much but it's still far better than riding the cattle tube.

Two problems with driving:

1. That 6 hour drive could easily turn into 9+ hours if I time it wrong or there's an accident, construction, etc.

2. It's still, best case, 6 hours in the car instead of 3 hours flying myself. I'd probably try to make flying work even if it took as long as driving.

 

[PPC1052]

You could take two paid sick days the two days of travel if you have sick time built up. No liability.

As far as the public is concerned suing the company, you were off sick and decided to fly those two days....

Sure, you can always commit perjury if you are so inclined.

 

[PPC1052]

A good lawyer will free a murderer....

Yeah, but notice they didn't let him testify, either. Think about it.

 

[timwinters]

Two problems with driving:

1. That 6 hour drive could easily turn into 9+ hours if I time it wrong or there's an accident, construction, etc.

2. It's still, best case, 6 hours in the car instead of 3 hours flying myself. I'd probably try to make flying work even if it took as long as driving.

Oh, I'm in no way trying to talk you out of flying yourself, by far that's a great way to go if you can pull it off.

All I'm saying is if that isn't an option, and it wasn't for me when I was in corporate America, then I'd go to great lengths to avoid the cattle tubes, especially after 9/11.

Fortunately the majority of my trips were on corporate jets and that's by far the best option when it is one!

 

[midlifeflyer]

You are correct. If an employer sends you somewhere, you are acting with the course and scope of your employment and the employer is liable under the old common law doctrine called Respondeat Superior. The policy consideration behind that is to prevent employers from making money while causing injury, and leaving their employees to take the rap.

Believe me, no matter your intention, when you crash into a busload of kids and nuns, once your estate gets sued, your next of kin will immediately cross-complain against your employer for indemnity as they don't want to be impoverished by being left holding the bag.

Kristin is absolutely right in her description of the rule and the policies originally behind it.

Keep in mind that this is not some newfangled idea American plaintiff lawyers came up with; it goes back to the 1600s in merry ole England.

The employer is probably concerned about two issues. Liability to others might actually be the more minor of them for the knowledgeable employer since the risk of an airplane accident injuring others is pretty low and you can mitigate even that risk by including your employer as an insured on your aircraft policy. More significant might be whether the employer's workers compensation coverage would be in place for a personal aircraft accident in which you were injured.

 

[weilke]

How important are you to the company ? If you and your happiness is important to them, they may spend the money to buy non-owned liability coverage for the flights you operate at their direction. One of my partners flies on business. We had to max out our coverage on the plane and the company has a non-owned policy that is secondary up to their CGLI limits. Beyond that, they are in a risk retention pool with other companies.

Morgan Stanley got hit with a 15mil verdict when one of their investment guys crashed a 421 with customers on board in Cook county IL. So yes, the risk is real.

 

[weilke]

Oh and the difference to driving yourself is that driving risk is a cheap rider to commercial liability policies, so most companies carry it.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

When I worked for a relatively large corporation, I flew myself a lot on business. At some point they required to be added in a named insured rider on my insurance policy (for X dollars liability protection). They agreed to pay the extra cost of that rider and the higher liability limit (which was not much). I think that's the best way to go in the OP's situation, even if the OP has to pay for the rider himself (but hopefully still deduct it as a business expense).
Edit: IOW, OP should discuss it with both his boss and insurance carrier to find an acceptable solution.

 

[DFH65]

Two problems with driving:

1. That 6 hour drive could easily turn into 9+ hours if I time it wrong or there's an accident, construction, etc.

2. It's still, best case, 6 hours in the car instead of 3 hours flying myself. I'd probably try to make flying work even if it took as long as driving.

Are you IFR rated? otherwise a 3 hour flight could turn into 9 days.

 

[txflyer]

Yeah, but notice they didn't let him testify, either. Think about it.

Yeah, they didn't want to give the prosecution any chance to rip him to shreds and break him down...

 

[Henning]

There is a simple way to address this and that is to have your employer as a named insured.

 

[weilke]

There is a simple way to address this and that is to have your employer as a named insured.

Given the laughable insurance limits on most private aircraft that doesn't do much to cover the employers exposure. If you could buy 10/20mil on a skylane with a $300 rider this would indeed be the 'simple' solution.

 

[mjburian]

Are you IFR rated? otherwise a 3 hour flight could turn into 9 days.

I am IFR rated, but from the sounds of things I'm either going to have to get them to accept the risk or just take take a large metal tube halfway across the country and back. It's really too bad that things like this can't be easily mitigated to allow for easier business usage of GA aircraft...

 

[Henning]

I am IFR rated, but from the sounds of things I'm either going to have to get them to accept the risk or just take take a large metal tube halfway across the country and back. It's really too bad that things like this can't be easily mitigated to allow for easier business usage of GA aircraft...

Unless you are hauling high value individuals, getting more than $5MM is tough, but $5MM isn't necessarily that tough of an extra premium.

 

[mjburian]

Unless you are hauling high value individuals, getting more than $5MM is tough, but $5MM isn't necessarily that tough of an extra premium.

I may have to talk with the club officer in charge of insurance and see what can get added (and for how much). Then talk to work and see if that satisfies them or not. :-/

 

[pj500]

Joking aside, How much do you care about the job? Are you in an industry where you could replace it in 5 days for equivalent pay?

Seriously, not the tongue in cheek response... but realize some of the advice here might get you sacked if caught. On the other hand, you might not care if you're a RN or a pharmacist or something and can just go work across the street starting tomorrow...

The liability risk for the company is real. The liability risk for yourself is minimal assuming you would have taken a similar recreational flight anyways.

The fact you're not carrying and PAX might be the only mitigating issue, but it's not home free.

 

[Henning]

I may have to talk with the club officer in charge of insurance and see what can get added (and for how much). Then talk to work and see if that satisfies them or not. :-/

You may ask if the $1MM suffices, it's the number the industry works around, if you carry their standard coverage, it's a rare day anyone comes after you for more.

 

[mjburian]

Joking aside, How much do you care about the job? Are you in an industry where you could replace it in 5 days for equivalent pay?



Seriously, not the tongue in cheek response... but realize some of the advice here might get you sacked if caught. On the other hand, you might not care if you're a RN or a pharmacist or something and can just go work across the street starting tomorrow...



The liability risk for the company is real. The liability risk for yourself is minimal assuming you would have taken a similar recreational flight anyways.



The fact you're not carrying and PAX might be the only mitigating issue, but it's not home free.

Been there 12 years, expect to retire from there in 20 years. So, I care more about the job than this trip. Thing is, the trip was optional (but I signed up for it), the idea of flying it myself came later.

 

[mjburian]

You may ask if the $1MM suffices, it's the number the industry works around, if you carry their standard coverage, it's a rare day anyone comes after you for more.

I'll look into that... thanks!