Flying close to full gross weight ?

T

TXFlyyer

Filing Flight Plan
Joined
Sep 14, 2021
Messages
6
Display Name
Display name:
TXFlyyer
Hello all,

I'm currently training in a cherokee 140 about to finish my PPL in a couple of months. The cherokee has a useful load of around 870bs.

I obviously have yet to fly any passengers but I'm a bit nervous flying my family, is it warranted?

Me, wife + 2 kids all weigh 550 which leaves 320lbs for fuel + baggage. Which seems to be cutting it pretty close.

I guess if the performance charts say it's safe...its safe?
 
As you are figuring, a Cherokee 140 is more of a two-passenger aircraft than a four-passenger aircraft.

I have flown plenty of PA-28 and PA-32 aircraft at max, and will do this Wednesday evening, as well. It flies fine.

A max-weight plane typically flies a bit smoother to me, as well.

Enjoy your flight and plan for the upgrade that makes flying your family more practical and fun.
 
Thanks for the reassurance, anxious to share the joy of flight with them!

Can any of you recommend an aircraft less than $50K that will suit my needs better?
 
First, different years of the -140 had different MGWs. For some years, standard or long-range fuel tanks (36 vs. 50 gallons)?

90+% of my flying is solo. I've flown my Warrior (-160) at max gross weight about a dozen times. It seems obvious, but expect your -140 to perform differently than when you are flying solo. The first time I flew at MGW, I took off from my home drome's 2600' runway with a single passenger and flew 7 nm to Paine Field's 9000' runway to pickup the other two. I knew what the POH said, but I had never flown that heavy so wanted the safety margin.

I am glad I did. The degraded takeoff performance surprised me. That one takeoff taught me what I needed to know and what to expect. Now, on the rare occasions I fly at MGW, I get close to the POH performance.

The lesson, be ready for degraded performance. Be aware of the density altitude. Use a scale to ensure your weight estimates.
 
TXFlyyer said:
I obviously have yet to fly any passengers but I'm a bit nervous flying my family, is it warranted?

Me, wife + 2 kids all weigh 550 which leaves 320lbs for fuel + baggage. Which seems to be cutting it pretty close.
Click to expand...
Not to be the bearer of bad news, but it’s unlikely you’ll be able to fly your whole family in a Cherokee 140. Fly them one by one, sure, but not all together at once.
 
Expect longer takeoff roll and reduced climb rate at gross. I personally wouldn’t takeoff at gross without looking at the charts and confirming your airport has excess runway available and no obstacles nearby. Fly the plane.

If you are shopping for one, I’d suggest the Cherokee 180 over the 140.
 
RyanB said:
Not to be the bearer of bad news, but it’s unlikely you’ll be able to fly your whole family in a Cherokee 140. Fly them one by one, sure, but not all together at once.
Click to expand...

I think this is BS. Based on the weights you provided, you should be able to fly your family if the plane is loaded properly. I had a Cherokee 140 for 3 years. I filled the seats on a few occasions. One basic rule is plan on filling to the tabs if you are going to fill all the seats. Even then, you must check your W&B carefully, and never forget about DA. Four 200# guys just won't make it in a 140, but a wife and two small kids shouldn't be a problem. As has been previously mentioned, takeoff performance will suffer. It will take longer to reach Vr. Avoid super hot days with a full load, because you will really be pushing the envelope - as I said, don't forget about Density Altitude. I can remember a few harrowing summer takeoffs in my 140 with the stall warning light blinking on and off as I tried to maintain a positive rate of climb over trees ahead.
 
The "reduced climb rate" can be unnerving. Its one thing to understand this logically. Its another thing when you are used to climbing out at say, 700 FPM. Then you take off at max weight and your climb rate is 200 fpm. If you've got any obstructions at the end of the runway, even small ones, the close proximity of them to your plane can be freaky.

I've been flying for 30 years but two weeks ago I was in this situation with my wife in the plane. It was not comfortable at all and I kept thinking that any kind of downdraft would put me in a bad situation (though there was nothing to cause a downdraft in this location).

If your POH calls for leaning on takeoff for your plane and conditions, this is not the time to forget it.

You can practice a head of time by simply establishing a 200 fpm (or pic a number) after liftoff and see what it feels like at your particular airport.
 
I filled the seats in my Cherokee on more than one occasion. Flew at gross more than once, the airplane will work just fine. @EdFred has the right of it though, you don't want to be at gross on a hot day. Give yourself lots of margin, big runways. Even if you're within the book numbers, your airplane isn't new and won't perform like a new one.

You probably don't want to travel with the whole family though. You haven't enough room for more than a weekend's worth of luggage, and it will be an uncomfortable ride for those in back.
 
A private curriculum should really include a rearward CG /gross weight max performance takeoff. I'm surprised if it doesn't. Ask!
 
I'm sorry, guys, but I believe you're being a bit overly-dramatic here.

I've flown plenty of Warriors at Max Weight, and never got lousy 200'/min climb rates. (Except at Flagstaff on an 80-degree day, but that's a different story)

Back on track with the OP. Kids have this nasty habit called: growing up. I doing so, most kids pick up some weight. It's annoying that they do so, from what I understand. You need to enjoy this flight but begin looking at a more suitable mount. Cherokee 180/Archer comes to mind, although I don't know what's available in the sub-50k range.
 
Say what you want, but I don’t want to lure a novice pilot into loading his whole family into a 140 by a thin margin, without considering the atmospherical challenges at play. Not to mention the fact that unless it’s a standard day and you’re at sea level, that anemic 150hp engine becomes less and less. Do your weight and balance and take-off calculations and then use your best judgement from there.
 
Zeldman said:
Might check with your CFI if it is ok to bring a friend along on a flight lesson or three to get used to having more weight in the plane.
Click to expand...
This is really valuable advice. My CFI did this during my initial, and it was eye opening feeling the difference in weight/CG. Also, we made them move around back there. It’s a gnarly experience.

After my PPL, I spent time giving rides to “expendable” passengers before I ever loaded my family into the plane. Full disclosure I’ve never flown anything smaller than a 172 w/160hp.
 
I’ve taken off at gross hauling two adults with full fuel in low DA and I got 200 fpm max on climb out. It was scary until I realized I wasn’t going to get my normal climb rate and gained enough altitude. That’s the only time I’ve ever had a human in the back seat. Like Ed said, nobody could sit in the rear seat behind me unless they were a double amputee

Having said that, if you have a light wife and two small children with fuel at the tabs, you should be okay.
 
Be ready on the trim after you give the yoke what it needs for airspeed. Trimming might not be what you’re used to. Don’t let family distract you. Have fun. Post a pic.
 
I highly encourage you to fly with your instructor at max gross before bringing family. Family introduces other pressures and distractions, and you don't want MGTOW flight characteristics to be new to you. Bring some water bottles or sand bags and load up with your instructor to max gross first.
 
Zeldman said:
Might check with your CFI if it is ok to bring a friend along on a flight lesson or three to get used to having more weight in the plane.
Click to expand...

:yeahthat:

When I built my plane I had to do the gross weight testing and yes it does fly differently with a load in it and even that changes depending on how the weight is distributed. I used sand bags from Lowe's Home & Aviation supply and made certain they were properly secured. The plane handled fine and as others have noted the takeoff roll was longer and the climb rate was lower. Also had to add more power during the steeper turns but I suspect you won't be doing too many of them with the wife in the plane. ;)

If you can take a CFI or even a pilot friend or two with you until you get used to the handling at gross weight that would be great. You wouldn't want your wife to read the look of surprise on your face during her first ride with you with the other precious cargo in the back.

You are approaching this correctly by asking the question and I salute you for that. Be careful and enjoy the ride with the family!
 
I would argue that the O.Ps biggest problem is that he is used to flying a big high performance aircraft. If he was flying something with 60-90 hp and a gross weight on the order of 1,300 to 1,400 pounds, then flying at gross would be normal and nothing to even think about.
 
I flew my cherokee 140 at gross all the time...it was no biggie on a 70 degree (or less) day. You had to be careful if the temps/DA went up though. It would still do it, but it used a lot of runway, and climbed very slowly. Also, make sure the W&B is at least some-what up to date. Mine was off (and showing too light) by several dozen pounds when I had my plane weighed.
 
Zeldman said:
Might check with your CFI if it is ok to bring a friend along on a flight lesson or three to get used to having more weight in the plane.
Click to expand...
This is your best advice. My CFI for any plane he has taught me in has made a point to load it up and take it out to show me how it feels and what to expect. Trim is your friend.
 
I routinely fly my archer 50 pounds under gross, no problems as long as you are within the envelope and the density altitude for the airport is taken into account.
 
Joe_B1 said:
I routinely fly my archer 50 pounds under gross, no problems as long as you are within the envelope and the density altitude for the airport is taken into account.
Click to expand...

An Archer has substantially better climb ability than a PA-28-140. I nearly had to have an underwear change after getting caught in an extended downdraft in an Warrior - ended up nearly 2 miles off-shore of Santa Barbara on departure at about 400' ASL (at that point I cared about the sea, not the ground...)
 
I'll probably be called a jerk, but I don't think the obstacle clearance charts for a PA-28-150 are realistic. 2500' field, 50' obstacle...or more likely 75' at 200' past the threshold, 1000' MSL, 85F day, and it's a two person aircraft with tabs fuel and a reasonable safety margin. Now, 4500' field, same conditions? You're good all the time.
 
Jeff Oslick said:
An Archer has substantially better climb ability than a PA-28-140. I nearly had to have an underwear change after getting caught in an extended downdraft in an Warrior - ended up nearly 2 miles off-shore of Santa Barbara on departure at about 400' ASL (at that point I cared about the sea, not the ground...)
Click to expand...
Yeah, that extra horsepower do come in handy at times!
 
I owned a Cherokee 140 for 14 years and flew XC at gross weight with my family more than 40 times. For us it was me and my wife and our dog and enough stuff to keep my wife happy for a week. As equipped empty weight was 1400 and gross weight was 2150, leaving 750 lbs usefull load. Our flights were 400 NM which we could do with no head wind in 4 hours, burning about 34 gallons of fuel. I would fill to 42 gallons, and I checked our time and position at 1/2 and 3/4 way to see if a fuel stop was required. I stopped for fuel the first few trips anyway, then went nonstop most of the trips after that.

The 140 is underpowered in hot weather, but has adequate power on cooler days. At gross weight takeoff acceleration is slower and climb is less but not too bad below 5000 feet. Above that it takes longer to get up high. Always check the required takeoff and landing distances on hot days. Once I calculated max takeoff temperature for us that day from 2E8 was 86F, and 88F was stay on the ground. That day 88 was to occur at 11 am so we were in the air at 10:30 without incident. 2E8 is grass, 2200 ft, at 650 ft elevation. After figuring in my safety factors I told my wife we had to be airborne before 11 am and we were. It helps that rwy 6 is slightly down hill.

As your family grows you will want more room and useful load if you want to keep flying with them all. Think about your options, there are many, but every one of them will put you flying at gross weight. That's where airplanes are designed to fly, and it is the only way to get maximum utility out of them.

PS: Read AirFactsJournal about Wolfgang Langwiesch flying across Africa in 1950. A fantastic accout of getting maximum utility out of a small plane.
https://airfactsjournal.com/2013/10/from-the-archives-wolfgang-langewiesche-flies-across-africa/
 
Last edited:
To help get an idea of the reduced performance at MGW, you may want to go to a LONG runway and takeoff with a *bit* of nose-down trim. Work your way up with more nose-down trim slowly. This is an approximation to demonstrate the takeoff and ROC performance.
 
Domenick said:
To help get an idea of the reduced performance at MGW, you may want to go to a LONG runway and takeoff with a *bit* of nose-down trim. Work your way up with more nose-down trim slowly. This is an approximation to demonstrate the takeoff and ROC performance.
Click to expand...

All that will do is make it harder to pull the nose up, but won't affect climb performance if you pitch for the desired airspeed. It will just make the controls heavy. Better demonstration would be a reduced power take off.
 
The POH performance numbers are done at gross. You guys are making a mountain of a molehill.
 
My wife's primary instructor would insist on flying at least one stage check with the plane at gross for exactly this situation. The student does his entire training well below gross (just him and the instructor) and then the first thing that he does when he gets his license is load up three of his friends and goes for a ride. The CFI was doing a stage check for another instructor's student so he asks me and Margy to be "human ballast" in the back ("Hey, you want to be a CFI someday, you'll learn something."). The student gets out to the runway and rotates and keeps bringing the nose further up. I felt like we were going to have a departure stall demonstrated on departure and grab on to Margy. Then I heard what I describe as the "CFI death scream" which is the sound they make when they are in imminent fear of dying.

"If you drop this thing on its tail, we're all going to die," I believe were the words as he was pushing hard against the student to get the nose down.

Especially planes with a large weight range, while they remain controllable and with (supposedly) acceptable performance, they do have diminished performance when loaded up. My Navion which screams toward the heavens with two and standard fuel on board, is a bit sluggish when loaded up to gross with passengers and extra fuel.
 
Stewartb said:
The POH performance numbers are done at gross. You guys are making a mountain of a molehill.
Click to expand...
At sea level and std temp and pressure. Lets add in the texas heat in the summer and the fact that engines dont produce rated power as they get older.
 
TXFlyyer said:
Me, wife + 2 kids all weigh 550 which leaves 320lbs for fuel + baggage. Which seems to be cutting it pretty close.

I guess if the performance charts say it's safe...its safe?
Click to expand...

There is nothing unsafe about flying the airplane at, or slightly below max gross as long as you're within the CG envelope. But do be aware that the airplane will handle differently. Since you're in training now, perhaps you could talk to your instructor about doing a training flight with some extra weight in the back seat so you can feel the difference. Provide of course that you're within the CG envelope.

Also, when you're doing a dual flight with your instructor, you can legally take a passenger in the back seat as your instructor is PIC. Do make sure any passengers are properly briefed and understand you're on training flight.
 
In a 140 depending how big you and your CFI are, with full tanks (not tabs) you're going to be not that far from max gross anyways. The only difference is you're both up front with minimal weight aft.

Only fill to tabs when you take the fam, to cancel out the weight of the kids.

Be safe, and read the performance charts if you're on a short/soft field or at a high density altitude.
 
TX I see. Sea level, a cool/cold day, light load the fuel, you’d be fine.

More fuel on a hot day, maybe not fine.

I flew a Warrior to FL, similar situation, 2 adults, 2 kids. It was Earlier April, I used an accurate ‘fuel straw’, picked nice airports, limited leg lengths. It worked out just fine, from WI. The next guy may have issues.
 
EdFred said:
It ain't the weight, it's the room. There's no way anyone was sitting behind me when I was flying a 140.
Click to expand...

I can't believe this is the only comment so far about this, unless I missed something.

If I (6'2") am sitting in the front seat, the seat is slid back to where it's almost touching the front of the rear seat. Legroom is virtually zero.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top