Flying a Student Pilot’s Airplane

[DangerRanger]

Greetings to all. First post as a PoA member. The preface to my question below is that I just recently earned my Sport certificate.

There is a Sport Cruiser that flies into my airport with some regularity. I always seem to just miss him on the ramp, but I looked up the plane’s N number in Flight Aware and that is how I learned the owner’s name. I searched the name in the FAA database, and if he is the one flying it and the info is accurate, he is flying on a Student certificate. I’d love to approach him and share a flight with him to check out the Sport Cruiser.

Of course, he may not carry a passenger as PIC. But me holding my Sport cert allows this. And the airplane being an LSA, is there any obstacle to me flying his airplane as PIC with him as my passenger? I have only ever flown one airplane through my training and beyond (take a wild guess at what it is), but I believe - correct me if I’m wrong - that I don’t require formal instruction to fly a Sport Cruiser, being it’s the same category and class as my certificate. But in this scenario, I would be the “student” insofar as the other pilot would be the one familiarizing me with the airplane’s functionality, checklists, etc.

Any thoughts on this? Thanks to everyone.

 

[ateamer]

His insurance probably will not cover you.

Are you comfortable with a student pilot, who you don’t know and have no idea as to his skill and knowledge level, briefing you on that airplane’s operations, and his ability to recover if you are flying and do something wrong? And would you trust his judgement if he thinks it’s a good idea?

 

[midlifeflyer]

But in this scenario, I would be the “student” insofar as the other pilot would be the one familiarizing me with the airplane’s functionality, checklists, etc.

I agree with @ateamer

In this scenario, either you are PIC or he is illegally flying with a passenger.

Are you willing to take on PIC responsibility? In case of an incident that damages the plane, are you willing to give his insurer a reason to deny coverage?

 

[DangerRanger]

These are good considerations. The insurance part - the pesky insurance part. Maybe I’ll catch him one day and get the scoop. Not a lot of those Sport Cruisers around me, but they sure do look fun.

 

[CaptainXap]

The obvious answer (if the owner was prepared to let you fly the plane in the first place) would be to ask them to put you in contact with their CFI who would do the checkout for you.

Or is your suspicion here that once they soloed they decided a student cert was enough, and they never bothered to get their certificate, and therefore no longer have a CFI?

 

[bluesideup]

I’d love to approach him and share a flight with him to check out the Sport Cruiser.

Hi.
Before you fly that Sport cruiser, by yourself / with the student, unless you have some time in them, I strongly suggest that you first fly with an Instructor that knows those planes.

 

[RyanB]

It sounds like a good idea on paper, but it's a bad idea in reality. Two people with little experience flying an airplane you haven’t flown before and don’t know anything about. Just because you CAN doesn’t mean you SHOULD. Get a CFI and do a proper checkout.

 

[Tools]

You are completely legal to fly that plane with him onboard.

Your insurance MAY cover you, mine does that sort of thing. His might too, just have to read it to be sure.

There is nothing wrong with him teaching you that plane, there is nothing wrong with you letting him fly that plane with you in it. You simply can’t log time received towards a “check out”, he can’t log time flying it (with you onboard).

Sounds like you’re both grown adults, I’ll let you decide if a good idea or not. There’s some obvious considerations, but nothing that can’t be mitigated. Have fun, be safe!!

 

[DangerRanger]

The obvious answer (if the owner was prepared to let you fly the plane in the first place) would be to ask them to put you in contact with their CFI who would do the checkout for you.

Or is your suspicion here that once they soloed they decided a student cert was enough, and they never bothered to get their certificate, and therefore no longer have a CFI?

I'm thinking it may be the latter. My cousin did the same thing - got his student cert and decided that's all he really wanted. Accrued quite a lot of solo hours before deciding to ultimately hang it up. This particular person in the Sport Cruiser may be doing the same thing. If he flies frequently (which appears to be the case if in fact he's the one making these flights I'm seeing on Flight Aware), I would have a reasonable degree of confidence in his knowledge and experience with the airplane. I would tend to value experience and currency over a certain certificate. After all, the difference between me holding a student cert vs. a sport cert was a one hour flight and one DPE's opinion. No significant leap in my knowledge or experience occurred in that time. I think I'd be much more apprehensive flying with someone who had higher certificates/ratings but who just bought the thing and had 5 hours in it. Use it or lose it, ya know?

 

[DangerRanger]

It sounds like a good idea on paper, but it's a bad idea in reality. Two people with little experience flying an airplane you haven’t flown before and don’t know anything about. Just because you CAN doesn’t mean you SHOULD. Get a CFI and do a proper checkout.

Thank you - I do believe that is very good advice. It does lead me to the question - what is a reasonable way to evaluate a CFI's experience with a particular airplane? Or rather, if I'm not successful in locating a CFI who has experience with this airplane, how much weight is on the CFI side of the scale to counter the "no experience in said airplane" side of the scale? These are the kind of things I'm thinking about being new to the aviation world.

 

[DangerRanger]

Thanks for your input, @Tools

 

[Tools]

Ha! You bring up a GREAT point. I’ve checked out lots of folks in planes I really don’t know much about, but insurance insisted on it!

Just being aware of that conundrum puts you in a position I don’t really worry about ya. You’ll do fine!

 

[Tools]

In theory, no. Gotta keep up the medical also. Next question, can a student operate on basic med?

 

[flyingron]

In theory, no. Gotta keep up the medical also. Next question, can a student operate on basic med?

Yes, if he qualifies (i.e., has previously held a third class).

 

[midlifeflyer]

In theory, no. Gotta keep up the medical also. Next question, can a student operate on basic med?

Interesting question. Technically BasicMed applies to private pilots, so if you want to read it strictly, a student or recreational pilot needs a third class. Come to think of it, using that reading, a commercial pilot or ATP can't either, even if exercising private privileges. If you want to read it a little more reasonably, BasicMed applies to those exercising private or lesser privileges. The "reasonable" interpretation - based on maximum privileges - has plenty of support. The easiest example - we know that CFIs may rely on BasicMed, and they are commercial pilots.

But the question seems a bit academic (although this thread is one scenario) . In order to rely on BasicMed, one has to have had at least a third Class medical. So we're talking about someone who has been a student pilot for at least two years and as many as 5 without earning their private certificate.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Off-topic, but:

Is there anything preventing a student pilot from getting a solo endorsement every 90 days and not bothering with the DPE checkride? If you have a willing CFI who will sign off on extended flights, it seems that the only real downside is not being able to carry passengers.....???

The only real downside is finding a CFI willing to continue to do those 90-day endorsements.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Come to think of it, using that reading, a commercial pilot or ATP can't either, even if exercising private privileges.

Damn it, Mark! Shut up! We don’t need to be giving them any stupid ideas.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Damn it, Mark! Shut up! We don’t need to be giving them any stupid ideas.

I know you're joking but we do have enough FAA paranoia afoot for me to say I'm not even a little bit worried about this one . Do you remember when the basic PIC sole manipulator logging rule didn't mention ATP? I recall someone actually asked the Chief Counsel whether an ATP could rely on the sole manipulator clause when not acting as an ATP. They gave a straight answer but one could read, "are you an idiot?" between the lines.

 

[midlifeflyer]

There is a never-ending stream of CFIs who will take your money for flight time and an endorsement.

Since I know a fair number of time-building instructors, it's probably less than you think.

 

[Daleandee]

Off-topic, but:

Is there anything preventing a student pilot from getting a solo endorsement every 90 days and not bothering with the DPE checkride? If you have a willing CFI who will sign off on extended flights, it seems that the only real downside is not being able to carry passengers.....???

I knew a guy that did that a number of times until his instructor finally figured out that this guy had no desire to grow any further ...

 

[Dana]

If the aircraft is LSA, no medical is needed.

 

[flyingron]

Interesting question. Technically BasicMed applies to private pilots, so if you want to read it strictly, a student or recreational pilot needs a third class. C

No, that is not true. 61.89(d) provides that a student pilot can do basic med. 61.101(k) does the same for recreational pilots.

 

[Flocker]

If the aircraft is LSA, no medical is needed.

I don't have my FAR/AIM in front of me, but if you're a student pilot pursuing a sport pilot certificate I'm pretty sure you can solo an LSA with no medical. (obviously an endorsement is required)

 

[DJTorrente]

There is a never-ending stream of CFIs who will take your money for flight time and an endorsement.

Since I know a fair number of time-building instructors, it's probably less than you think.

A CFI serially endorsing a student to solo who has no intention of pursuing a rating is not in the spirit of the regs, even if it's not in violation of the letter.

Factor the CFI's personal interest into the equation: what's the benefit of enabling such a student? To fly with him/her once a quarter? That's not contributing much to building time or money. And what would that say about the ADM of such a student*? Would the CFI want to risk their ticket on such a signoff for such little gain?

* I'm not presuming that the aircraft owner described by OP is in fact such a person or engaged in such a ruse. Consider the FAA database as presented on the internet might simply be out of step with all the relevant paperwork.

 

[flyingron]

Yes, but you would still have to have had a Class 3 at some point since 2006, correct?

Yes, I said that in a prior post.

 

[midlifeflyer]

No, that is not true. 61.89(d) provides that a student pilot can do basic med. 61.101(k) does the same for recreational pilots.

You are absolutely correct. I guess I wrote that while my brain was on lockdown.

 

[Dana]

I don't have my FAR/AIM in front of me, but if you're a student pilot pursuing a sport pilot certificate I'm pretty sure you can solo an LSA with no medical. (obviously an endorsement is required)

That is correct.

 

[Half Fast]

In theory, no. Gotta keep up the medical also. Next question, can a student operate on basic med?

Yes. I took my Private checkride using Basic Med.

 

[Half Fast]

But the question seems a bit academic (although this thread is one scenario) . In order to rely on BasicMed, one has to have had at least a third Class medical. So we're talking about someone who has been a student pilot for at least two years and as many as 5 without earning their private certificate.

That's probably the typical case, but the medical might expire much sooner if it was a special issuance.

Personal example:

I first got a Sport ticket and flew that way for a while before deciding to get Private. I needed an SI for an autoimmune condition, and Bruce did my exam in May of 2018 and deferred to OKC. I got my SI 3rd class in Sep 2018 and immediately got Basic Med. The 3rd class was good for 1 year from date of application, so it was due to expire in May of the following year.

Through most of the fall of 2018 I was buried at work, so I continued to fly as a SP when I had time and waited to start PP training until things quieted down a bit.

I started PP training at the end of 2018, then was grounded for a month or two due to a procedure for kidney stones. IIRC, we finished up the training around the first of March 2019 but couldn't get a DPE until late April. Did the oral exam but it was too windy to fly, so we postponed the flight. The DPE then went out of town for several weeks, and the next date I could book with him was in June 2019.

So, by then my 3rd class was expired and I did the checkride on Basic Med.

 

[Half Fast]

Since I know a fair number of time-building instructors, it's probably less than you think.

The ones I know are living on beans and rice and would probably write an endorsement if you just bought them a decent meal.

 

[Half Fast]

Yes, but you would still have to have had a Class 3 at some point since 2006, correct?

Yes, but there are quite a few pilots who start training, don't finish, then come back years later to complete it. Basic Med can work well in that instance.