Fly runway heading, I'll call your turn. . . .take off clearance canceled.

comanchepilot

comanchepilot

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Joe Farrell, yeah, him
They use our airport [KPOC, La Verne, CA] for controller training a lot.

This past Sat AM - I got this whole long clearance from the controller . .. "90P, fly runway heading, I'll call your turn, no turns before the freeway, maintain 2500 or below, noise abatement turn requested."

I sat there waiting for the take off clearance that never came.

I was about to push the button and I heard him call out: "90, cancel take off clearance,"

I said: "I never got one, thats why I'm sitting here. Holding short"

That flustered the hell out him. There was another airplane on downwind - about the turn to base.

"90P, can you do an immediate departure?"

Absolutely.

"90P, cleared for take off runway 26 left."

"Cleared for take off 26L, still need the restrictions?" as I'm rolling.

Dead silence. 10 seconds later one of the voices I recognize comes on and says: "90P, no restrictions for take off, contact Socal Approach upon reaching 1700".

It's not just us that get confused in aviation. After we took off, my wife chimed in with: "He never cleared you to take off the first time."

Good to know.
 
comanchepilot said:
I said: "I never got one, thats why I'm sitting here. Holding short"

That flustered the hell out him. There was another airplane on downwind - about the turn to base.
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People make mistakes. I generally try to keep sass to a minimum in an ATC environment.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
People make mistakes. I generally try to keep sass to a minimum in an ATC environment.
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yeah - you're right, I was raised in an environment of constant abuse for saying dumb stuff. It just comes out sometimes- not proud of it.

In that situation - do you just respond 'take off clearance canceled' and wait for the next one?

It didn't come from sass - it came from "I want him to understand why I'm sitting here."

he's wondering why I'm not rolling. I'm not rolling because I was not told too. . . not sure the training controller figured it out either because he didn't nudge him. Right?
 
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No harm, no foul. Their product is separation, and it doesn't need to be a game of "whack-a-mole" if something requires clarification; simply get it and move on (I think you did).
 
Today a controller asked me to change to the frequency that I was on and had been on for ~25 minutes. I just responded "127.95, 3986Q" and assumed he was getting sleepy.

Next guy on frequency was "N12345, VFR from xxx to yyy (two airports about 75 miles apart without any terrible obstacles between them) requesting flight following".

ATC response, directly quoted, "uh, N12345, how are you going to get there?"

I wanted to buzz in with "What is, 'He will fly'?"
 
SaltH2OHokie said:
Today a controller asked me to change to the frequency that I was on and had been on for ~25 minutes. I just responded "127.95, 3986Q" and assumed he was getting sleepy.

Next guy on frequency was "N12345, VFR from xxx to yyy (two airports about 75 miles apart without any terrible obstacles between them) requesting flight following".

ATC response, directly quoted, "uh, N12345, how are you going to get there?"

I wanted to buzz in with "What is, 'He will fly'?"
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The frequency thing is common. They can't tell which you are on when they are working multiple frequencies.

I don't see your point on the second part. All the other guy had to say was "direct".
Perhaps the controller gad an IFR about to descend through that area.
 
Kritchlow said:
The frequency thing is common. They can't tell which you are on when they are working multiple frequencies.

I don't see your point on the second part. All the other guy had to say was "direct".
Perhaps the controller gad an IFR about to descend through that area.
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The phrasing was humorous to me on the second one. 'How you gonna get there?' doesn't seem like it should be in the ATC manual, but maybe it is?
 
FWIW, controllers are trained at every facility, rookie ones as well as journeymen controllers who transferred in from a different facility/location. For trainees, a rated controller monitoring the trainee allows the trainee to make mistakes to see if they catch their mistake and not. They won't allow a dangerous situation develop however. It's like a CFI with a student pilot, you have to "sit back" and see what they'll do and/or recognize. There is a tremendous amount of controllers retiring in the near future so everyone will probably experience more of this.

Lastly, controllers are human and try their best not to make mistakes, but like every occupation it happens. If it's a hazardous occurrence, please speak up if the controller doesn't catch it. Just because you feel you caught them on something, doesn't help the situation usually. It's not a "us vs them", we should be helping each other.
 
Couple weeks ago I got taxi instructions...while I was on downwind.

Got our tail numbers mixed up. It was all good.
 
abqtj said:
Couple weeks ago I got taxi instructions...while I was on downwind.

Got our tail numbers mixed up. It was all good.
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Many, many years ago I was flying a C310 into Albany NY late at night. Griffiths (sp ?) handed me off to Albany tracon. I checked in with Albany and was immediately cleared to land and taxi to parking. I was VFR 30+ miles away???
 
Kritchlow said:
Many, many years ago I was flying a C310 into Albany NY late at night. Griffiths (sp ?) handed me off to Albany tracon. I checked in with Albany and was immediately cleared to land and taxi to parking. I was VFR 30+ miles away???
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Might've had everything combined up at that time of night. Some towers had approach control up in the cab years ago. I cleared a guy for the approach immediately when he checked in from a handoff from ATL center, he was 30-35 miles from the IAF. Also I knew him and wanted to blow his mind. I did.
 
mscard88 said:
Might've had everything combined up at that time of night. Some towers had approach control up in the cab years ago. I cleared a guy for the approach immediately when he checked in from a handoff from ATL center, he was 30-35 miles from the IAF. Also I knew him and wanted to blow his mind. I did.
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Yup... it was definitely combined. Same controller on way out from clearance delivery to radar service terminated.
I used to do bank check runs through there in the late 80's.
 
comanchepilot said:
They use our airport [KPOC, La Verne, CA] for controller training a lot...
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As Mark said, they use every airport for controller training. Even as a rated watch supervisor controller and CTO (control tower operator) examiner at two of them, I've been a "trainee" at seven different towers and two radar facilities.
 
Kritchlow said:
Yup... it was definitely combined. Same controller on way out from clearance delivery to radar service terminated.
I used to do bank check runs through there in the late 80's.
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I also did check runs, to Memphis, late at night. Always heard great stories on the freqs at those hours.
 
Timbeck2 said:
As Mark said, they use every airport for controller training. Even as a rated watch supervisor controller and CTO (control tower operator) examiner at two of them, I've been a "trainee" at seven different towers and two radar facilities.
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To further explain this, when a controller changes location say from Raleigh to Miami, that controller has to learn the new facility's airspace, local procedures, approaches, etc. Then he is checked out by someone like Tim, an examiner, very similar to an airplane practical test. These controllers have the basic ATC stuff down of course, but every area is different, and they have to learn all that.
 
Kritchlow said:
The frequency thing is common. They can't tell which you are on when they are working multiple frequencies.
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They can, but they have to look at the receive light when you’re talking. Easier to just give you the frequency they want you on.

abqtj said:
Couple weeks ago I got taxi instructions...while I was on downwind.

Got our tail numbers mixed up. It was all good.
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“Okay I’ll do that, but can I have a landing clearance first?”... would have been funny. ;)
 
I say again....In the pilot/controller communication world, when the pilot screws up, the pilot dies. When the controller screws up, the pilot dies. Be ever vigilant and understand the call before you blindly repeat it and follow it. "Unable" is a proper response.
 
cgrab said:
I say again....In the pilot/controller communication world, when the pilot screws up, the pilot dies. When the controller screws up, the pilot dies. Be ever vigilant and understand the call before you blindly repeat it and follow it. "Unable" is a proper response.
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Good advice. I've seen controller screw ups, some weren't pretty.
 
If I had a dollar for every time I heard a controller screw up, I could probably pay for dinner. If a controller had a dollar for every time *I* screwed up, he’d be retired. :)
 
8 years ago tonight I was flying a night flight from Carlsbad NM to Dona Ana (KDNA) west El Paso. ABQ center handed off very early while I was about 60 miles out from El Paso Class C. Controller asked if landing El Paso and I replied, negative Dona Ana via downtown. He responded VFR on course altitude your discretion. There wasn't a single radio transmission over the next 25 minutes (midnight and over downtown at about 5 minutes after midnight). At that point I keyed up and told them field in site request frequency change. After he gave the usual squawk VFR no traffic response, I replied Happy Thanksgiving, whereupon a FedEX crew on the ground chimed in a nanosecond later that THEY would have been the first to give that transmission if there hadn't been so much radio traffic. Controller was laughing so hard he accidentally keyed up and you could hear him loud and clear.
 
Kritchlow said:
Many, many years ago I was flying a C310 into Albany NY late at night. Griffiths (sp ?) handed me off to Albany tracon. I checked in with Albany and was immediately cleared to land and taxi to parking. I was VFR 30+ miles away???
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I was jump seating ( retired DX) out of Louisville Ky. To PHX. on climb out of Louisville we got "Direct St. Johns" but then this was about 2am.
 
SDF is a training station for controllers and they do a pretty good job as a whole. They get frustrated by an almost 100% refusal of visual approaches acceptance by us but if they came up and saw the lights of planes turning towards each othe for the parallel runways and the mass of ground lights that swallows a preceding plane then they would understand better. That and the foolish insistence on saying “heavy”...none of our planes are not heavies or treated as such. Just clogs the radios. And the disregard of the wind...we know we are landing to the north and departing south unless the wind is to strong on the ground. The other night I had 40 knots at 100 feet and 27 in the flare with a twenty plus degree change in direction. Idle to max thrust to idle in about 50 feet. One the best landings ever and all we could do was laugh and say how lucky we were.
 
texasag93 said:
I was cleared to take off runway 16 today. I was holding short runway 34. Poop happens.
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I once was cleared for an intersection take off on 27 and then started rolling down 09 when the controller hollered at me. Stopped, turned around, and went west.


see what I did there (ex I didn't go west)
 
mscard88 said:
No SDF is not a training station. Every ATC facility constantly has training. Every one.
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That is curious...since one of our pilots wives is a controller supervisor there and said that there is a constant flow through from OKC to there and MEM. I agree that training goes on at every facility but like I said "according to the locals" SDF is a major stop on the way to their final somewhat assignments.
 
MD11Pilot said:
That is curious...since one of our pilots wives is a controller supervisor there and said that there is a constant flow through from OKC to there and MEM. I agree that training goes on at every facility but like I said "according to the locals" SDF is a major stop on the way to their final somewhat assignments.
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It might be a popular training facility but like Mark said, every facility takes controllers either from the academy or internal transfer. Unless it's like a sleepy contract tower where you've got some old dudes milking their way til retirement, every facility is conducting training for new controllers, all the time.
 
mscard88 said:
I once was cleared for an intersection take off on 27 and then started rolling down 09 when the controller hollered at me. Stopped, turned around, and went west.


see what I did there (ex I didn't go west)
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Yikes. Not that it couldn’t happen to anyone but that last “DG matches the runway” check is important.
 
abqtj said:
Couple weeks ago I got taxi instructions...while I was on downwind.

Got our tail numbers mixed up. It was all good.
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Earlier this year, I got instructions related to turning base while I was on the landing rollout. I just did what my primary instructor had taught me, which was to make a position report.
 
mscard88 said:
Complacency, it'll get ya when you least expect it. ;)
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It certainly will. I’ve done some really stupid **** which as much as we humans hate to admit it, is how we learn. Controllers have let some stuff slide too.

Like mistakes in other facets of life, ‘fess up, be honest, and people tend to not get nearly as angry as when someone tries to cover it up or acts weird about it.

(A lot of people beat up the Harrison Ford thing as if he got special treatment because of his fame, but I’m convinced it was the immediate phone call and the “I’m the guy who screwed up...” attitude that helped him more. BTDT, got the t-shirt.)

I’m sure at least two things I’ve filed NASA reports on myself for, could have gone a lot worse if I wasn’t honest on the frequency and just said I screwed it up. Timing also helped. They were Bad Things(TM) but not as bad if they’d happened at different times when other aircraft were in the way.

Fly long enough, everyone will do something. Even the “perfect” pilots. (We all know one.) The hope is you don’t do it at the wrong time and create a real hazard to yourself or others.
 
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26 years of admitting my screw-ups, and no enforcement actions yet (knock on wood).
 
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