Fly In - day after reflection on idiots in pattern

Hang 4 said:
The markings depict the direction of turns in the pattern, not the direction to turn to enter the pattern. Not sure how all the FAA published information that depicts pattern entry would be wrong. Please explain how to safely and legally enter a pattern without at least one turn in a different direction? Think you are putting too much emphasis on "in the vicinity" - when does vicinity begin and end?
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Three lefts make a right?
 
Hang 4 said:
The markings depict the direction of turns in the pattern, not the direction to turn to enter the pattern. Not sure how all the FAA published information that depicts pattern entry would be wrong. Please explain how to safely and legally enter a pattern without at least one turn in a different direction? Think you are putting too much emphasis on "in the vicinity" - when does vicinity begin and end?
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You're 63 years old and can't figure it out? You also have an issue navigating one way streets? Enter straight in on downwind, enter on cross wind, enter on an upwind, enter on a base (and further downwind, and turn to upwind if it's busy). No right turns required.
 
Hang 4 said:
..when does vicinity begin and end?
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Five miles crops up repeatedly when you investigate the question. Accident statistics, for one. The need for ATC towers for another. Something the state of California measures for a third, I forgot what. [EDIT] Found it:

"This leaves 29% of general aviation and 26% of commercial aviation
accidents which can be classified as airport-vicinity accidents, potentially including some en route accidents which happened to take place within 5 miles of an airport."​
 
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EdFred said:
You're 63 years old and can't figure it out? You also have an issue navigating one way streets? Enter straight in on downwind, enter on cross wind, enter on an upwind, enter on a base (and further downwind, and turn to upwind if it's busy). No right turns required.
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Not sure what my age has to do with it, but at an un-towered airport, I would never enter any of the ways you are describing except for maybe a straight-in if no one else is around. Clearly nothing is going to change your mind, so rock on...
 
Honest question - why is the teardrop and 45 degree entry the ‘preferred’ method? That’s simply not something we really use up here in Canada and by having three different entires it’s opening up the door to traffic being all over the place.

Crossing over midfield at pattern altitude and joining directly seems like a safer entry to me. The pilot flying midfield can see the runway better as they are 500ft lower. They can see the big picture left and right while adjusting their speed to enter the downwind. The pilots in the downwind can easily see traffic off their left at the same altitude and expect them to join the circuit. The ability to see them on the left at the same altitude is key.

Doing the teardrop to the 45 entry the pilots flying midfield at 1500 can’t see what’s happening below as well and now have to join at the 45 where the pilots in the downwind can’t see them as easily off their right. If a pilot in the downwind sees them off their right they might not know whether that pilot entering the pattern actually sees them or not so it may create a conflict, much like driving at a merge point and you both don’t know whether the other person will yield or not.

To further create issues the pilots entering the downwind at patten altitude in example one now need to yield to not only the people in the downwind but also need to look further out to yield to those on a 45 entry.
 
GLDP said:
Honest question - why is the teardrop and 45 degree entry the ‘preferred’ method? That’s simply not something we really use up here in Canada and by having three different entires it’s opening up the door to traffic being all over the place.

Crossing over midfield at pattern altitude and joining directly seems like a safer entry to me. The pilot flying midfield can see the runway better as they are 500ft lower. They can see the big picture left and right while adjusting their speed to enter the downwind. The pilots in the downwind can easily see traffic off their left at the same altitude and expect them to join the circuit. The ability to see them on the left at the same altitude is key.

Doing the teardrop to the 45 entry the pilots flying midfield at 1500 can’t see what’s happening below as well and now have to join at the 45 where the pilots in the downwind can’t see them as easily off their right. If a pilot in the downwind sees them off their right they might not know whether that pilot entering the pattern actually sees them or not so it may create a conflict, much like driving at a merge point and you both don’t know whether the other person will yield or not.

To further create issues the pilots entering the downwind at patten altitude in example one now need to yield to not only the people in the downwind but also need to look further out to yield to those on a 45 entry.
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I agree with you, and I've never seen the logic of the teardrop. And if more than one plane arrives from roughly the same direction at roughly the same time, it just moves converging traffic out to the teardrop itself.
 
Hang 4 said:
Not sure what my age has to do with it, but at an un-towered airport, I would never enter any of the ways you are describing except for maybe a straight-in if no one else is around. Clearly nothing is going to change your mind, so rock on...
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Why not? You have the airport environment in sight the entire time. If on upwind you can see the runway the entire time and know that it's safe to turn crosswind without conflicting with departing traffic. Now since you're already on crosswind you're in the pattern. Entering on a long downwind you can see if anyone is taking off.

The MOST dangerous method IS the 45 entry.

What's the issue with any of the other entries safety wise?

Your age plays a part because I figure after 63 years you would have developed some problem solving skills.
 
GLDP said:
Honest question - why is the teardrop and 45 degree entry the ‘preferred’ method? That’s simply not something we really use up here in Canada and by having three different entires it’s opening up the door to traffic being all over the place.

Crossing over midfield at pattern altitude and joining directly seems like a safer entry to me. The pilot flying midfield can see the runway better as they are 500ft lower. They can see the big picture left and right while adjusting their speed to enter the downwind. The pilots in the downwind can easily see traffic off their left at the same altitude and expect them to join the circuit. The ability to see them on the left at the same altitude is key.

Doing the teardrop to the 45 entry the pilots flying midfield at 1500 can’t see what’s happening below as well and now have to join at the 45 where the pilots in the downwind can’t see them as easily off their right. If a pilot in the downwind sees them off their right they might not know whether that pilot entering the pattern actually sees them or not so it may create a conflict, much like driving at a merge point and you both don’t know whether the other person will yield or not.

To further create issues the pilots entering the downwind at patten altitude in example one now need to yield to not only the people in the downwind but also need to look further out to yield to those on a 45 entry.
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Because the FAA is full of and run by idiots. I'm dealing with one now in the medical division who has demonstrated the inability to read or comprehend. Then you have pilots that just blindly follow along not thinking about whether its actually safer or not. Spoiler. It's not. Now I'm not making a case for anarchy, but damn some changes need to be made
 
GLDP said:
Honest question - why is the teardrop and 45 degree entry the ‘preferred’ method? That’s simply not something we really use up here in Canada...
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Canadians aren't used to seeing another aircraft, ever. Otherwise, they'd have contemplated a calm wind and blue planes entering a blue downwind and red planes entering a red downwind:

Midfield downwind entry.jpg​
 
Art Rose said:
... unless you're flying a really fast machine, keep your irritating "I'm 10 miles out" radio clutter to yourself. If you can't handle a little close in congestion and confusion, you probably need to avoid these type of gatherings.
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I had to laugh reading this post. Last Saturday was a busy day at my aerodrome. Amongst all the traffic calls comes one from some yokel doing the instrument approach into the field (CAVU day). He proceded to reference instrument fixes he was near and what he was doing at the time such as the course reversal, turning inbound, etc etc etc. Never once did he reference his position in a way a VFR pilot would comprehend. All the while we had gliders airborne nearby with multiple fixed wing in the pattern trying to keep from trading paint. The instrument plane must have been "on final" for 15 minutes (C172). When he landed he proceeded to roll to the end of the runway where there is no exit and had to back taxi to midfield before turning off. Obviously had not read the airport information in the Chart Supplement. I was flying the towplane and had to go around twice, once for him "on final" with no distance call (broke out of the pattern because I will not turn final without seeing traffic calling final) and once for his backtaxi. I've flown into REKLAW and it does seem there are a lot of pilots who should drive in or at least plan to arrive during the slack hours because they can't effectively communicate or safely integrate themselves into a busy environment.
 
Witmo said:
I had to laugh reading this post. Last Saturday was a busy day at my aerodrome. Amongst all the traffic calls comes one from some yokel doing the instrument approach into the field (CAVU day). He proceded to reference instrument fixes he was near and what he was doing at the time such as the course reversal, turning inbound, etc etc etc. Never once did he reference his position in a way a VFR pilot would comprehend. All the while we had gliders airborne nearby with multiple fixed wing in the pattern trying to keep from trading paint. The instrument plane must have been "on final" for 15 minutes (C172). When he landed he proceeded to roll to the end of the runway where there is no exit and had to back taxi to midfield before turning off. Obviously had not read the airport information in the Chart Supplement. I was flying the towplane and had to go around twice, once for him "on final" with no distance call (broke out of the pattern because I will not turn final without seeing traffic calling final) and once for his backtaxi. I've flown into REKLAW and it does seem there are a lot of pilots who should drive in or at least plan to arrive during the slack hours because they can't effectively communicate or safely integrate themselves into a busy environment.
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When I was young (17) I trained and got my PPL at a fairly busy Class D airport. I was probably 30 years old before I felt comfortable flying into non towered airports. I honestly think Houston Hobby is less stressful to fly into than what I experienced this past Saturday. I think there may be some pilots who just count on me getting out of their way, and it always works!

I have a 21 year old son about to start his IFR training and I have instructed him on NOT to do just what you outlined above. Very irritating when pilots on Instrument approaches do that.
 
Fly-in's don't sound like fun. Sounds like a headache and stress trying to get into a busy place like that. Landing somewhere with nobody around for miles is what I look forward to.
 
alaskan9974 said:
Fly-in's don't sound like fun. Sounds like a headache and stress trying to get into a busy place like that. Landing somewhere with nobody around for miles is what I look forward to.
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It’s not stressful with a little common sense and a fluidic mind it’s really not a big deal.

If you have to always enter the pattern XYZ paint by numbers stuff, I could see how it would he difficult
 
Lindberg said:
That's a relief. Since there's no conflict, we don't have to worry about which takes precedence.
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But you cited the AFH which defers to the AIM. I'd say that's to resolve the conflict which you don't see.
 
There are CTAF fields best to avoid in our area. Some of the behavior is terrifying. On downwind with other traffic, I had a 172 who suddenly turn crosswind at TPA mid field!

A near mid-air collision with my plane. So close it was easy to see the scratches in his windows. No radio announcement. Half the planes in the pattern blasted this guy over the radio. His reply was quoting the regs about a CTAF field.

Absolute idiot.
 
Stewartb said:
Does calling other pilots idiots make you feel better about yourself?

What's a fly in? I'm new to this pilot thing. I've only held a certificate for 26 years and I've never been to one. Doesn't sound like I've missed much. Do the holier than thous outnumber the idiots? How do they know who's who?
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If you didn't receive the top secret email and decoder ring , you aren't one of us;):D:D:D:D

So there I was last week, approaching TorC New Mexico, with traffic announcing they were 20 out and inbound ... being only 5 miles out I slowed from 160 knots, debated an aileron roll and entered the 45 ... I'm such a maverick:eek::eek::confused::confused:;);)
 
I have lost the will to restate my rant on how dangerous the overhead pattern to a downwind turn INSIDE the pattern is. I give up...

Some impatient jackhole decided they didn't need to fly in a manner to enter the downwind on a midfield 45 and it made it all the way to an FAA publication. Saying the Canuckistanis do it doesn't make it right.

I won't do it and I'm not going to risk yet another midar collision at night because of idiotic, yet allowed procedures.

Those pilots probably had only flown four or five hours in the last year and were so scared $4Itless that they couldn't devote a few brain cycles to using a radio....
 
I don’t do fly ins because too many weekend warriors that rarely fly more than 20 miles from their home airport, except for fly ins.
 
IK04 said:
I won't do it and I'm not going to risk yet another midar collision at night because of idiotic, yet allowed procedures.
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I agree 100%. The over fly to the 45 degree entry is exactly that!!
 
NordicDave said:
..., I had a 172 who suddenly turn crosswind at TPA mid field!
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how the heck did a 172 climb 1000’ by mid field? When I’m by myself in the winter with half tanks, I can do it just about after passing the other end of the runway 6500’ away.
 
Maybe I am lost on this or just too new (80 hours). I read/was instructed that crossing midfield at least 500’ above pattern altitude then going a mile or two past midfield then doing a descending teardrop to pattern altitude entering downwind on a 45 deg was not only ok but preferred if on the other side of the field.

Is this wrong???
 
Deelee said:
Maybe I am lost on this or just too new (80 hours). I read/was instructed that crossing midfield at least 500’ above pattern altitude then going a mile or two past midfield then doing a descending teardrop to pattern altitude entering downwind on a 45 deg was not only ok but preferred if on the other side of the field.

Is this wrong???
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No. That is the correct way to do it.

We are talking about crossing midfield at pattern altitude an simply turning downwind from inside the pattern. Insane. :mad:
 
Ah right. Yeah I saw that in I think the Airplane flying handbook or phak I forget which. That was listed as an alternate to the preferred method I described. It always seemed odd that it was listed as an entry at all. Although I think there was mention of it being ok if there wasn’t any traffic.... still seemed odd. Maybe safe for more experienced folks, but I never do it and tend to play it safe and just go over above TPA and extend out before entering on the 45.
 
I believe it to be safe if it is flown inverted.

That was inserted when a fella named Maverick made instructor at Miramar. He petitioned the FAA. It's a big thing; I think there was a movie about parts of it.
 
IK04 said:
No. That is the correct way to do it.

We are talking about crossing midfield at pattern altitude an simply turning downwind from inside the pattern. Insane. :mad:
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No, what is insane is putting your back to all the traffic and then making a RIGHT turn when approaching to land when the regs say left turn. Also, who has the right of way when you barge in on the 45? The regs say the person to the right has the right of way. So the person on downwind has to yield to the person barging in on the 45. And you're supposed to fly behind the right of way traffic....by making a RIGHT turn to do so. Now do you see why the 45 is the stupidest way to enter the pattern? No, of course you don't.
 
Deelee said:
Maybe I am lost on this or just too new (80 hours). I read/was instructed that crossing midfield at least 500’ above pattern altitude then going a mile or two past midfield then doing a descending teardrop to pattern altitude entering downwind on a 45 deg was not only ok but preferred if on the other side of the field.

Is this wrong???
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It's not wrong. But it's a stupid way to do it. (see above post as to why)
 
Weekend Warrior said:
I agree with you, and I've never seen the logic of the teardrop. And if more than one plane arrives from roughly the same direction at roughly the same time, it just moves converging traffic out to the teardrop itself.
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But often there's less (or no) traffic out a few miles away from the field. I use the teardrop when there's a lot of congestion in the pattern; gives some time for that traffic to land and clear. Light traffic? I'll cross midfield into the downwind at TPA.

Just another arrow in the quiver.
 
Deelee said:
Ah right. Yeah I saw that in I think the Airplane flying handbook or phak I forget which. That was listed as an alternate to the preferred method I described. It always seemed odd that it was listed as an entry at all. Although I think there was mention of it being ok if there wasn’t any traffic.... still seemed odd. Maybe safe for more experienced folks, but I never do it and tend to play it safe and just go over above TPA and extend out before entering on the 45.
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Reading this thread is a great reminder that the most important thing to do is listen early, announce where you are and intentions, and most importantly, look because some people fly with no radio. If there are more than 2 or 3 in the pattern you need to be especially careful and try to blend into the traffic. Most encounters I've had in the pattern are cordial and either I accommodate or I am accommodated if there is a question.

I flew into Auburn/Lewiston Maine on Sunday. I announced five miles out, (probably should have announced a little further out, because I was cooking), but anyway, a Cessna on the downwind announced after I did and told me he had just turned downwind. I had announced a midfield entry crossing over the field. I told him I would turn south to enter from the crosswind instead, he said he was almost to midfield, I found him, told him I had him and I would follow him. When he was turning final a Citation piped up that he would position and hold after the Cessna landed for an immediate take off after the Cessna cleared the runway. I told the Citation that I would extend my downwind for him. He thanked me, then he asked me about the Cirrus I was flying. We had a nice little chat, you know, to keep interlopers out of the pattern (just kidding). But the point is we talked and it all worked out.
 
bflynn said:
how the heck did a 172 climb 1000’ by mid field? When I’m by myself in the winter with half tanks, I can do it just about after passing the other end of the runway 6500’ away.
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Don’t know. But this moron ****ed a lot of people off and I narrowly avoided him mid-air.
 
I find this discussion fascinating. In these parts,(South Africa) there is only one approved way to join the pattern at an untowered field.

Overhead 2000’ AGL, 1mile past the runway turn to enter a descent on the ‘dead side’ i.e the side that is NOT the downwind leg (this may require overflying the runway again depending on your direction of arrival). Descending to pattern altitude turn crosswind, cross the extended centerline and then normal downwind and base.

No 45deg, no teardrops, no straight ins in the regulations.
 
Mike Blackburn said:
I find this discussion fascinating. In these parts,(South Africa) there is only one approved way to join the pattern at an untowered field.

Overhead 2000’ AGL, 1mile past the runway turn to enter a descent on the ‘dead side’ i.e the side that is NOT the downwind leg (this may require overflying the runway again depending on your direction of arrival). Descending to pattern altitude turn crosswind, cross the extended centerline and then normal downwind and base.

No 45deg, no teardrops, no straight ins in the regulations.
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Sad the governing body considers the pilots so lacking they mandate things to that extent.
 
Sounds like a pretty standard day at my airport. With two busy flight schools, you see all sorts of tomfoolery. During the stage check before my checkride we got cut off while on crosswind by someone flying straight into downwind, were pushed out of the traffic pattern twice by people flying straight into base while we were on downwind, and had people blocking the frequency trying to lecture other pilots about how to fly. The instructor (who flew Bird Dogs in Vietnam and has B-17 and Spitfire type ratings) said he'd never seen a pattern that bad. Funnily enough though, I still get more nervous about flying into a towered airport than I do uncontrolled.
 
Kind of wonder how the op would have handled this before he had "the panel" to look at?
 
Deelee said:
Maybe I am lost on this or just too new (80 hours). I read/was instructed that crossing midfield at least 500’ above pattern altitude then going a mile or two past midfield then doing a descending teardrop to pattern altitude entering downwind on a 45 deg was not only ok but preferred if on the other side of the field.

Is this wrong???
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Not necessarily...but sometimes definitely yes. This is a relatively new procedure that is being taught (definitely not taught when I was starting). There is nothing wrong with crossing midfield above pattern altitude - that is the safest place to be if there really is alot of traffic in the pattern at a non-towered airport (I can't count how many times I have been vectored directly over DFW airport when crossing through DFW Class Bravo). The problem is why would you want to break into the downwind on a 45 if there really was alot of traffic already on the downwind, assuming they were already properly spaced?

In my opinion, this is a procedure that is best used when there is not much, if any, traffic in the pattern. It does save some time and gets you on the base and final approach a little quicker. I have started flying this method a few times and I don't have any problem with it as long as it is used when appropriate. It is like any other procedure - it can be picked apart and shown as "dangerous" for any given situation. But, in reality, any procedure for entering a pattern over a non-towered airport can be shown to be dangerous under any given situation.

In my situation for the fly-in, there was an easy to see pattern of alot of airplanes established on a long downwind that at the time I did not understand why they were set up like that. It was only after I landed that I found out that there were several Young Eagle flights that were flying an agreed upon route that took them to a waypoint several miles south of the field at which point they made their way back to the field on what amounted to a long downwind. Those flights, together with the fly-in traffic, made an entry like you referenced (teardrop to a 45 entry for a left downwind) not the best choice. Of course that pattern could not have been determined without having a panel or tablet showing ADSB In traffic.

Anyway, don't necessarily write off the crossing / teardrop / 45 entry to a downwind, but just know when to use it and know when to try something else. If you use your eyes, ADSB in, and ATC (whether on an IFR flight plan or VFR Flight Following) you have three great tools to get you safely down.
 
I think, after reading this, I am doing to stick to what I was taught and use the crossing midfield above 500’ tpa when applicable. And also to keep good situational awareness and communicate appropriately. Haven’t had a problem yet, but I am always hyper-aware of where everybody is in a pattern (that I know of).
 
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