Florida plane crash into Gulf PA-28

Here is what the moon looked like between Sarasota and Tampa tonight at 9:30pm, same time as crash last night. Photo taken facing due east Moonrise was an hour earlier yesterday, so it would be higher, but still low and to pilots back.

I can't get a decent shot facing west because of illum from Tampa area, but the gulf must have been a total black hole.

PXL_20230407_012616281.jpg
 
NTSB prelim report for the December crash was released in Jan. See attached. Pilot took off on runway 23 when winds were 070 at 7kts. God what a terrible decision.
 

Attachments

  • Report_ERA23FA079_106409_4_6_2023 10_43_32 PM (1).pdf
    1.1 MB · Views: 63
I thought I remembered noise abatement procedures for 05, which may have explained the decision to use 23, but the afd doesn’t mention that, although It does say 23 is preferred in calm wind.
 
Salty said:
I thought I remembered noise abatement procedures for 05, which may have explained the decision to use 23, but the afd doesn’t mention that, although It does say 23 is preferred in calm wind.
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It’s recorded on their AWOS. RWY 23 is the designated noise abatement and clam wind runway. There’s also a side step mentioned for 31 departures.
 
Is it just me, or do noise abatement procedures seem similar to the polices of promoting kids who aren't smart enough to the next grade. We're just encouraging stupid behavior, in buying houses on approach paths.

Maybe I'm too harsh. If four plus people are gone because someone flew a downwind takeoff into complete blackness rather than overfly houses, it seems to add to the sadness of the events.
 
Wouldn’t it be flying the upwind into the blackness? If you fly the pattern aren’t you going to fly into the blackness at some point either way?

As for your noise abatement point, I agree. It irks me whenever i see one.
 
Albany Tom said:
Is it just me, or do noise abatement procedures seem similar to the polices of promoting kids who aren't smart enough to the next grade. We're just encouraging stupid behavior, in buying houses on approach paths.

Maybe I'm too harsh. If four plus people are gone because someone flew a downwind takeoff into complete blackness rather than overfly houses, it seems to add to the sadness of the events.
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Noise abatement procedures are in the “do it if it’s safe and efficient” category. Unless there is some arcane FAR mandating compliance, they’re just a suggestion. And they certainly don’t override PIC authority.
 
Salty said:
If you fly the pattern aren’t you going to fly into the blackness at some point either way?
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You don't need to fly the pattern on takeoff. You can do a straight out or crosswind departure. If you do choose to fly the downwind leg, you would still be over land when you exit the pattern, and thus in view of inland lights to maintain orientation.

In the December crash, the pilot never got over 130 feet AGL. At that altitude, with his back to land, no lights would be visible. I have not seen data for the crash this week, but would bet the same is true.
 
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ateamer said:
Noise abatement procedures are in the “do it if it’s safe and efficient” category. Unless there is some arcane FAR mandating compliance, they’re just a suggestion. And they certainly don’t override PIC authority.
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You're absolutely right. It's the pilot's responsibility to make the right decision, and to keep everyone safe. That said, I can't get an image out of my head of a guy wanting to do what he thought was the "right" thing, and heading into a situation that he maybe wasn't ready for.

If you don't want to smell the farm, don't choose to live near a farm.
 
Albany Tom said:
a guy wanting to do what he thought was the "right" thing, and heading into a situation that he maybe wasn't ready for.
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And did not know what he was not ready for. That's the problem with the NA procedure in this instance. The pilots most vulnerable are the least likely to recognize the hazard, and the most likely to feel pressured to follow the NA procedure even when inadvisable.

The Cedar Key airfield has a memorial in the FBO to a couple who died the same way. I only visited once several years ago so I can't remember the details, but I recall being made aware in unambiguous language that a night departure from that airfield was hazardous. Was it on the memorial plaque?

IMO the Venice ATIS probably ought to have a caution about night departures from 23.
 
i also place blame on the cfi's. very few here in Florida teach this. there are airports on the coast all over Florida and it should be part of the training. when doing night instruction in fort myers, i take students out of fmy, go do west at 1000ft and when reaching sanibel island give them a bit of a distraction. when they look back up, they are over the water with nothing but blackness in front of them. during de-brief. we talk about that happening right after takeoff using VNC as an example.

in this case, with a tailwind not flying the NA procedure should have been the an easy call, with different winds the correct call might be, do the math, take a tailwind, and not fly the procedure to keep you out of the black hole. both these accidents show lack of training in local flight issues.
 
The first accident pilot flew out of St Pete and Whitted, and was a very recent PPL. That airfield is in proximity to the coast, but surrounded by the city. You have to go pretty far up or down the coast to find an area without very bright urban buildup directly on the shoreline. His night XC might have been his sole opportunity to experience night flight over water, depending on his CFI. There are several part 141 puppy mills at St Pete. Draw your own conclusions about what that means.

The second accident appears to be visitors from Indiana. Not sure if they were snowbirds or if this was a one-off spring break trip. If the latter, very possible they had no idea what they were getting into.

Has anyone else seen the memorial at Cedar Key? Do I remember correctly that there was some kind of prominent warning about how they died?
 
ateamer said:
Noise abatement procedures are in the “do it if it’s safe and efficient” category. Unless there is some arcane FAR mandating compliance, they’re just a suggestion. And they certainly don’t override PIC authority.
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“Do it if it’s safe”… don’t think efficiency comes into play.
 
Ed Haywood said:
That's awful.

I served 20 in the military, half during wartime, so death doesn't phase me much. Have also lost several pilot friends, mostly to aerobatics, so got used to shrugging that off. But it always hits me hard to see a pilot kill his family. That wife and daughter completely trusted their father with their lives, and he let them down. Dammit.
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Harsh? IDK

My wife supported me totally when I was working on my PPL. But she did not fly with me much right after I got my PPL. She was not my first passenger, my late friend was my first passenger. She waited for many months before going up with me.
I flew for close to 100 hrs by myself right after I got my ticket by choice until I got more comfortable. I didn't want the stress and distraction of a passenger at first.

1300 hrs later and a instrument rating I still fly by myself 99% of the time.

Most of my flights end at night. I wait to take off till evening and come back after dark so I have smoother air.
I trust my plane just as much at night as I do during the day.
IMG_2559.JPG

This is the same night and it never did get dark as that is the moon coming up and that is a new airport that is not even opened up yet.
IMG_2566.JPG
 
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Terrible tragedy. Didn't this guy have some 1200 hrs under his belt? I am a low timer (jst a couple hundred) so this is frightening to see how spatial disorientation could happen to anyone and or experienced ones.
 
Ed Haywood said:
And did not know what he was not ready for. That's the problem with the NA procedure in this instance. The pilots most vulnerable are the least likely to recognize the hazard, and the most likely to feel pressured to follow the NA procedure even when inadvisable.

The Cedar Key airfield has a memorial in the FBO to a couple who died the same way. I only visited once several years ago so I can't remember the details, but I recall being made aware in unambiguous language that a night departure from that airfield was hazardous. Was it on the memorial plaque?

IMO the Venice ATIS probably ought to have a caution about night departures from 23.
Click to expand...
There's an FBO at Cedar Key? I've flown in and out of there 3 or 4 times (none recently) and didn't know that.

That said, I took off from Cedar Key RW 23 on a hazy day and noted that there's no horizon out the gulf side. at night it'd be worse.
 
jsstevens said:
There's an FBO at Cedar Key? I've flown in and out of there 3 or 4 times (none recently) and didn't know that.

That said, I took off from Cedar Key RW 23 on a hazy day and noted that there's no horizon out the gulf side. at night it'd be worse.
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I was discussing this crash with a non-pilot buddy a while ago and tried to explain the phenomenon. Then he flew with me last week and during the flight we passed south along the Gulf from the Cedar Key area down to Crystal River, and there was a bit of haze. I told him to look toward the Gulf and asked whether he could see a horizon. "Nope." I then told him to imagine what that would be like at night.

He got it.
 
jsstevens said:
There's an FBO at Cedar Key? I've flown in and out of there 3 or 4 times (none recently) and didn't know that.

That said, I took off from Cedar Key RW 23 on a hazy day and noted that there's no horizon out the gulf side. at night it'd be worse.
Click to expand...

Maybe not. It's been a long time since I was in there, maybe 6 or 7 years. But I did find a picture of the memorial plaque on the interwebs:

cedar key.JPG

Also found this 2008 article about Cedar Key. Yikes.

https://www.gainesville.com/story/news/2008/06/10/feds-investigate-crash/31568513007/

The National Transportation Safety Board sent investigators to Cedar Key on Monday for the seventh time in 10 years.

Their assignment was all too familiar — determine what caused another fatal plane crash associated with the George T. Lewis Airport.
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