Florida Pilot having a bad day.

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

A TFR is useless if it's not enforced and there are no consequences for violating it. This pilot was made an example for the rest of us.

An "example" is useless if no one ever see's it.

I'm more curious about how an F-16 "intercepts" a Cessna 150 or something that's doing a mind-bending 100 knots. Strafe across the nose? Pull alongside in crazy high alpha flight? Circle around the offender? It'd be great if someone could chime in who knows exactly how this goes down.

You should already be aware of the intercept procedures and responses.

 

[SoCal RV Flyer]

An "example" is useless if no one ever see's it.

You saw it, and others reading this thread did too.

 

[mscard88]

I'm more curious about how an F-16 "intercepts" a Cessna 150 or something that's doing a mind-bending 100 knots. Strafe across the nose? Pull alongside in crazy high alpha flight? Circle around the offender? It'd be great if someone could chime in who knows exactly how this goes down.

Yup you should know this. But here's a reference:

AIM 5−6−13. Interception Procedure

 

[danhagan]

Yup you should know this. But here's a reference:

AIM 5−6−13. Interception Procedure

They’re used to be a download knee pad version. In my area, you can hear guard warnings quite often. Last trip back from AZ to Texas, Tuscon approach tried for 10 minutes to get hold of a pilot before sending an intercept aircraft

 

[Justin M]

I'm more curious about how an F-16 "intercepts" a Cessna 150 or something that's doing a mind-bending 100 knots. Strafe across the nose? Pull alongside in crazy high alpha flight? Circle around the offender? It'd be great if someone could chime in who knows exactly how this goes down.

Here's a video I found.

 

[MooneyDriver78]

A TFR is useless if it's not enforced and there are no consequences for violating it. This pilot was made an example for the rest of us. Sucks to be him.

I'm more curious about how an F-16 "intercepts" a Cessna 150 or something that's doing a mind-bending 100 knots. Strafe across the nose? Pull alongside in crazy high alpha flight? Circle around the offender? It'd be great if someone could chime in who knows exactly how this goes down.

I saw this happen (from the ground), the F16 goes into high angle of attack, slow flight to the max,look like it was almost stopped, more dramatic than video above, it held it’s position for a minute or two.

 

[Timbeck2]

They’re used to be a download knee pad version. In my area, you can hear guard warnings quite often. Last trip back from AZ to Texas, Tuscon approach tried for 10 minutes to get hold of a pilot before sending an intercept aircraft

Tucson approach sent up an intercept aircraft?

 

[danhagan]

Tucson approach sent up an intercept aircraft?

Yes. Minutes after the first guard announcements, they got on guard again and announced “Unidentified aircraft, you’ve been intercepted for breaking the ADIZ” follow that aircraft

 

[SoCal RV Flyer]

Here's a video I found.

Thanks...I appreciate replies that are useful.

It's pretty obvious when you're being intercepted, and you're not where you're supposed to be. My question pertained to how the jet/GA aircraft dealt with the speed difference, and the video answered it perfectly.

 

[hankrausch]

At least...maybe the guy should go to prison?
He violated airspace by 1 mile, it’s like going 62 in a 60mph speed zone, but getting pulled over by a tank. Since when did it become ok to use military power to control the citizens as normal operating procedure?
The appropriate response would be call on guard and warn him off.
Just another reason GA is dying...

well here is my experience, for what it is worth:

I got jumped by an F16 flying past the expanded P40. This was about 2 months after 9/11. I knew about it and had gotten an FSS brief, I was flying by pilotage and a hiking gps back then and my nav pic had me clear. Landed at Lancaster and my mother and I were frog marched around by a goon with a big rifle. FAA called after a few weeks and I explained that I knew about the expanded zone and based on my gps, I was clear of it. Never heard from them again but got a letter in the mail saying there was no deviation.

Here's the thing: I had already resolved that if there had been any censure, I was not going to play, just hang up my spurs. That was maybe 2000 hours of flying ago and Lord knows how many dogs I have flown in PnP. And how much discretionary income was burned up in fuel, meals, hotels. So all that would have been lost. So yeah I think things like this are killing GA. There is another thread on this forum about driving through a town in NJ and someone makes the point that it is no surprise that people of taking guns and going crazy, life has just gotten a lot more unreasonable. We seem to be living in not exactly a police state but a state where the police/military have unlimited powers with no recourse. A cop in Wichita just gunned down an innocent man due to a prank call, he says he thought he saw the man's hand near his waistband--if that justification is allowed, then they could gun down anyone at any time--how close does your hand have to be to your waistband to be shot? And who decides after the fact? GA dying is just a smaller part of America becoming a Hobbesian dystopia.

 

[LongRoadBob]

well here is my experience, for what it is worth:

I got jumped by an F16 flying past the expanded P40. This was about 2 months after 9/11. I knew about it and had gotten an FSS brief, I was flying by pilotage and a hiking gps back then and my nav pic had me clear. Landed at Lancaster and my mother and I were frog marched around by a goon with a big rifle. FAA called after a few weeks and I explained that I knew about the expanded zone and based on my gps, I was clear of it. Never heard from them again but got a letter in the mail saying there was no deviation.

Here's the thing: I had already resolved that if there had been any censure, I was not going to play, just hang up my spurs. That was maybe 2000 hours of flying ago and Lord knows how many dogs I have flown in PnP. And how much discretionary income was burned up in fuel, meals, hotels. So all that would have been lost. So yeah I think things like this are killing GA. There is another thread on this forum about driving through a town in NJ and someone makes the point that it is no surprise that people of taking guns and going crazy, life has just gotten a lot more unreasonable. We seem to be living in not exactly a police state but a state where the police/military have unlimited powers with no recourse. A cop in Wichita just gunned down an innocent man due to a prank call, he says he thought he saw the man's hand near his waistband--if that justification is allowed, then they could gun down anyone at any time--how close does your hand have to be to your waistband to be shot? And who decides after the fact? GA dying is just a smaller part of America becoming a Hobbesian dystopia.

I'm not disputing anything, and don't know, but wonder...

All you guys flying out of small airports, does it seem like the public would know, looking at the entrance that they could come in, watch planes take off and land, go around and look at the planes, without being arrested or questioned? I'm in Norway, grew up in the US though. Both there and here (when I drove into my airport, Kjeller, the entrance had a "military area, entry prohibuted" sign that made me think twice if I had the right entrance or was allowed to drive in. Turns out the military restricted area is on the right fork, or if being used by mil closed.) it looks like only authorized personnel would be allowed in. Once you get inside there is even raised benches placed where many can sit and watch the runway, but you have to get in there to know.

Does the local airport invite "neighbors", local schools to come by and check out the airport? What about leaflets at the local high school inviting kids to come by, or even "flying clubs" in high school extracurricular?

Ours here is in strife, may be shut down so they can put up more block apartments. Looks like the local mayor is not keen on flying. One or two folks will make a killing in real estate, the locals will have way more traffic and no real benefits (we can't do TNG here, and practice noise abatement) and pilots in Oslo will probably lose the most viable airport since they closed Fornebu (and the government promised a viable airport for the area).

I think in the sixties and seventies, maybe eighties people in general were much more aware that it was possible to take flying lessons and actually learn to fly. Used to be too that GA was more often in the media, in tv shows, etc. it used to be promoted a lot more.

But I think after 911 airports are seen as "off limits" by the general public. I think local airports ought to try and promote, and it could start with signs at entrances welcoming the public.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

does it seem like the public would know, looking at the entrance that they could come in,

Fences, gates, authorized personnel only, warnings about federal crimes, etc.

 

[Rory]

I'm not disputing anything, and don't know, but wonder...

All you guys flying out of small airports, does it seem like the public would know, looking at the entrance that they could come in, watch planes take off and land, go around and look at the planes, without being arrested or questioned? I'm in Norway, grew up in the US though. Both there and here (when I drove into my airport, Kjeller, the entrance had a "military area, entry prohibuted" sign that made me think twice if I had the right entrance or was allowed to drive in. Turns out the military restricted area is on the right fork, or if being used by mil closed.) it looks like only authorized personnel would be allowed in. Once you get inside there is even raised benches placed where many can sit and watch the runway, but you have to get in there to know.

Does the local airport invite "neighbors", local schools to come by and check out the airport? What about leaflets at the local high school inviting kids to come by, or even "flying clubs" in high school extracurricular?

Ours here is in strife, may be shut down so they can put up more block apartments. Looks like the local mayor is not keen on flying. One or two folks will make a killing in real estate, the locals will have way more traffic and no real benefits (we can't do TNG here, and practice noise abatement) and pilots in Oslo will probably lose the most viable airport since they closed Fornebu (and the government promised a viable airport for the area).

I think in the sixties and seventies, maybe eighties people in general were much more aware that it was possible to take flying lessons and actually learn to fly. Used to be too that GA was more often in the media, in tv shows, etc. it used to be promoted a lot more.

But I think after 911 airports are seen as "off limits" by the general public. I think local airports ought to try and promote, and it could start with signs at entrances welcoming the public.

I don’t think that people are deterred from learning to fly by the heightened security.

But as a kid, I remember being invited into an Air Canada cockpit between Iceland and Ottawa, an experience that I’ll never forget.

At the time, crews would sometimes ask people if they wanted to “come up front”. On that particular flight, I remember that at least four people put up their hands, my younger self among them. I imagine that some pilots miss being able to share the experience.

I also remember flying from places like Tortola, British Virgin Islands, and places like Whitehorse and Yellowknife, at a time when security in these airports might best be described as minimal to nonexistent.

 

[Ravioli]

All you guys flying out of small airports, does it seem like the public would know, looking at the entrance that they could come in, watch planes take off and land, go around and look at the planes, without being arrested or questioned?

My home airport has a restaurant. There are always non-aviators around. Mostly a pain in the butt because they don't know they how to stay out of the way of aircraft.

I'd say the towered airports tend to have more security (not much more) and the non-towered tend to have less.

 

[Rory]

My home airport has a restaurant. There are always non-aviators around.

Still trying to understand why anyone, ever would eat at an airport restaurant, let alone spend money flying to one

 

[Tantalum]

SEE has a diner. It's okay. I think it's a cool way for people to get their families interested in aviation and go out for a snack

Santa Monica has a viewing deck up top too, every time I flew there there were at least a dozen people up there hanging out

 

[Ravioli]

Still trying to understand why anyone, ever would eat at an airport restaurant, let alone spend money flying to one

Come on out to The Beacon. You'll know. The buffet is a little over priced, but "The Chuck Norris" is awesome if you love bacon.

 

[Rory]

SEE has a diner. It's okay. I think it's a cool way for people to get their families interested in aviation and go out for a snack

Santa Monica has a viewing deck up top too, every time I flew there there were at least a dozen people up there hanging out

I hate to tell you this, but when pilots talk about “good food” at an airport it is an exercise in wishful thinking

 

[Tantalum]

Yeah, generally if we fly somewhere for the famed hundred dollar hamburger we're not actually eating at the airport

 

[Rory]

Yeah, generally if we fly somewhere for the famed hundred dollar hamburger we're not actually eating at the airport

Rule number one. Don’t ever tell a date that you’re suggesting an airport restaurant because the food is great

 

[mscard88]

At the time, crews would sometimes ask people if they wanted to “come up front”. On that particular flight, I remember that at least four people put up their hands, my younger self among them. I imagine that some pilots miss being able to share the experience..[/QUOTE]
.

It's still allowed but only on the ground prior to taxi at the gate, and after landing at the gate. Kids still love it and we'd always set off alarms and lights for them to enjoy. Not that long ago the company had business card size cards of the particular jet they were flying on to and plastic wings to give to the kids​

 

[Rory]

That’s very cool, a great experience for the kids, and if my experience is anything to go by something that they will not forget.

 

[SoCal RV Flyer]

SEE has a diner. It's okay. I think it's a cool way for people to get their families interested in aviation and go out for a snack

Santa Monica has a viewing deck up top too, every time I flew there there were at least a dozen people up there hanging out

I've been down to Gillespie for lunch. Decent place! So many of them are "greasy spoons," really no different than any other small, family-owned diner, but that suits me just fine...leave the Beef Wellington with capers to the rich folk. Other good ones in SoCal...Hemet's Hangar One, the restaurant at French Valley, the Aviator Cafe in Hesperia, the Voyager in Mojave. If you want a little more upmarket, Camarillo's the place. And of course, Cable's own Maniac-Mike's (not sure why they use the hyphen) is great.

I've found them all to be very friendly, cozy places with aviation decor and nice wait staff. The best ones give you a view of the runway; Cable is one of the better ones in this respect.

 

[Ravioli]

Camarillo still had rather appealing wait staff the last time I was there.

Food at Catalina was pretty good, but pretty pricey.

 

[Rory]

I've been down to Gillespie for lunch. Decent place! So many of them are "greasy spoons," really no different than any other small, family-owned diner, but that suits me just fine...leave the Beef Wellington with capers to the rich folk. Other good ones in SoCal...Hemet's Hangar One, the restaurant at French Valley, the Aviator Cafe in Hesperia, the Voyager in Mojave. If you want a little more upmarket, Camarillo's the place. And of course, Cable's own Maniac-Mike's (not sure why they use the hyphen) is great.

I've found them all to be very friendly, cozy places with aviation decor and nice wait staff. The best ones give you a view of the runway; Cable is one of the better ones in this respect.

In my neck of the woods, if I want to buy a $100 hamburger I’ll go to Peter Luger, The Dutch or Daniel Bolud, and have a good bottle of wine while I’m at it.

Won’t be going to JFK, LaGuardia, Newark, Republic or for that matter the Hamptons airport.

Meanwhile, I wouldn’t pay $100 for a hamburger in the first place, let alone willingly go for lunch or dinner at an airport restaurant

 

[Tantalum]

the restaurant at French Valley, the Aviator Cafe in Hesperia, the Voyager in Mojave. If you want a little more upmarket, Camarillo's the place

Agree with you about Gillespie, it's actually a pretty decent breakfast. A friend and I are doing a short night cross country to French Valley for dinner tomorrow actually, never eaten there I'm looking forward to try it. My favorite though is Camarillo!

I haven't actually been there, but there's apparently a steak cattle ranch that you can fly into somewhere in the valley on the way up to San Francisco

 

[Hank S]

In my neck of the woods, if I want to buy a $100 hamburger I’ll go to Peter Luger, The Dutch or Daniel Bolud, and have a good bottle of wine while I’m at it.

Won’t be going to JFK, LaGuardia, Newark, Republic or for that matter the Hamptons airport.

Meanwhile, I wouldn’t pay $100 for a hamburger in the first place, let alone willingly go for lunch or dinner at an airport restaurant

The $100 includes the cost of the flight, it's not the price of the food . . . I used to log 0.9 hours and burn ~6 gals going one county over to eat at the non-towered airport diner.

I don't recommend flying GA into any of the places you mentioned, you'd probably have to wait a long time to land and be hit with rather large fees afterwards (landing fee, parking fee, security fee, etc.).

 

[Rory]

The $100 includes the cost of the flight, it's not the price of the food . . .

I just might know that. There’s this concept called humour...

 

[mscard88]

Meanwhile, I wouldn’t pay $100 for a hamburger in the first place, let alone willingly go for lunch or dinner at an airport restaurant

It's just an expression as @Hank S explained above. That's what these pilots on POA do when they have a fly-in meet.

 

[Rory]

It's just an expression as @Hank S explained above. That's what these pilots on POA do when they have a fly-in meet.

Another guy for whom humour is a new concept.

 

[mscard88]

Another guy for whom humour is a new concept.

Just going by your previous comments on other threads man.

 

[NoHeat]

This guy's New Years day flight got a little national attention:

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/palm-beach/fl-pn-plane-violates-airspace-20180101-story.html

What impresses me is that the TFR actually worked.

How many times have we read that a presidential TFR is just security theater, and that it isn't enough to keep a threat in a small plane from penetrating to its center?

In this case, it wasn't just theater. The plane was intercepted by F16s a whopping 29 miles from the TFR's center.

 

[Rory]

Just going by your previous comments on other threads man.

Maybe spend less time analyzing my posts and notice the smiley right in front of your face

 

[ShuRugal]

I generally agree with you there, no one seems to really be making a concerted effort to actually bring GA back, not as long as a 100 knot s***box costs half a mil new.. (oh but it has a G1000!! /s) sure there are used planes on the market for $50K-$60K, but ownership is a whole other hassle, and these $50K planes might be good enough for us diehards, but in the modern era stepping into a 1960s jalopy is not really going to bring anyone new into flying

I don't really think TFRs, airspaces rules, and other general "rules of the road" that we all learned in our PPL days are the straw on the camel's back though, those have always been around

Just want to play devil's advocate here and point out that my 1964 jalopy I'd turning out to be an excellent first plane.

But yeah, new planes are absurdly expensive. I'd sooner buy a new car, and I will never, ever, buy a new car...

Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

 

[Hank S]

I will never, ever, buy a new car...

Amen, brother! I avoid car salesmen as much as possible. Buying one vehicle per decade is too much hassle . . . Buy ,ate model used for 25-30% less than new, drive ut til it dies. Hit several dealers before getting fed up with the hassle and arguments, peel out in the new ride and never go back . . . . .

 

[wilkersk]

well here is my experience, for what it is worth:

I got jumped by an F16 flying past the expanded P40. This was about 2 months after 9/11. I knew about it and had gotten an FSS brief, I was flying by pilotage and a hiking gps back then and my nav pic had me clear. Landed at Lancaster and my mother and I were frog marched around by a goon with a big rifle. FAA called after a few weeks and I explained that I knew about the expanded zone and based on my gps, I was clear of it. Never heard from them again but got a letter in the mail saying there was no deviation.

Wow! Thanks for sharing that! Who was the "Goon with the big rifle"? Did secret service meet you when you landed? Or, was he military, or local LEO? I live all the way up in Washington state. After 9/11 I lost my job, and wound up not doing any personal flying for about a year; a result of the airlines having to drastically cut seat-mileage capacity. When I started flying again, it seemed to me like GA had changed a whole bunch, very quickly.

.... There is another thread on this forum about driving through a town in NJ and someone makes the point that it is no surprise that people of taking guns and going crazy, life has just gotten a lot more unreasonable. We seem to be living in not exactly a police state but a state where the police/military have unlimited powers with no recourse. A cop in Wichita just gunned down an innocent man due to a prank call, he says he thought he saw the man's hand near his waistband--if that justification is allowed, then they could gun down anyone at any time--how close does your hand have to be to your waistband to be shot? And who decides after the fact? GA dying is just a smaller part of America becoming a Hobbesian dystopia.

I really think the biggest problem is that the proliferation of social media, with its instant-gossip-all-the-time, is forcing us to face the reality that the world is so much more complex and life is so much more random, and messy, than anyone is yet willing to accept. There is a rather famous quote attributed to economist Thomas Sowell about people needing villains and heroes, and not being satisfied with the truth when it doesn't provide them.

As far as Hobbesian dystopias, Hobbes was an optimist, and he was right!

 

[Tarheelpilot]

There were presidential prohibited areas (other than the WH) long before the Patriot Act. Not exactly a TFR, but same concept. The area would actually get larger if the POTUS was at the locale, and diminish in size when he wasn’t. Kennebunkport Maine comes to mind.

true....patriot act just made it worse. It seems stupid to me. If you really want to make someone safe publishing TFR's in advance of all their travel letting everyone know exactly where you're going to be seems negligent and terribly inconvenient to everyone.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

Still trying to understand why anyone, ever would eat at an airport restaurant, let alone spend money flying to one

There is an Italian restaurant at Garden City, KS (KGCK) thats good.

 

[HornetDriver]

At least...maybe the guy should go to prison?
He violated airspace by 1 mile, it’s like going 62 in a 60mph speed zone, but getting pulled over by a tank. Since when did it become ok to use military power to control the citizens as normal operating procedure?
The appropriate response would be call on guard and warn him off.
Just another reason GA is dying...

Gee, I wonder why the Guard thing didn't work on 9/11, or when the Cessnas were crashed into the White House or CIA building...

That you think being 1 mile inside of restricted airspace is equivalent to 2mph over is scary... and also wrong.

Thank Odin we have expensive and powerful military jets with guided missiles and guns to protect the President from some poor schlub out for a New Year's Eve pleasure flight. Your tax dollars at work. Yippie.

We have expensive and powerful military jets to do things like protect the country and destroy ISIS. Enforcing TFRs is a happy byproduct. Your tax dollars are at work every single day on training flights; would you perfer your tax money be spent standing up some "Air Police" force? That sounds super cheap and effective.

I'm curious what those of you who think two-minutes to check TFRs before your flight is a heinous and flagrant infringement on liberty would have done instead. Should people be able to buzz the President at 500' while he's giving a speech? Are we just to assume everyone's intentions are good, and let the chips fall where they may?

 

[Tarheelpilot]

Are we just to assume everyone's intentions are good, and let the chips fall where they may?

yup pretty much. its just a president. there is a VP waiting in the wings. Its not like we are talking about royalty and there is a limited supply of them....

yes I"m serious.