Floatplane in "hot water" at Ryder Cup, or not?

I had to google Ryder Cup, I don't really follow sports news especially golf because I'm just not interested in it.

No TFR, nothing in the NOTAMs? Then I don't see how he did anything wrong.
 
As far as busting the low flying helicopter... if he wasn't in violation of any regs, what "repercussions" is he going to face?

And when it comes to float planes, I admittedly don't know much about them or the regs governing their landing operations... but I'd think I'd want to be familiar with where I'm landing. And if it's a private lake with no public access, then I wouldn't be landing there without the permission of the governing authority.
 
The jurisdiction is whoever controls the recreation on the lake. According to the article, he violated a city ordinance. So apparently the city has an ordinance prohibiting that on that lake. The city police have jurisdiction. The FAA could do something involving "careless and reckless", but has no direct jurisdiction on the lake.

These ordinances are frequently poorly written and sometimes the lake turns out not to even be in the city limits because it was never annexed. And the police almost never enforce this sort of thing because no one ever does it so they have little clue how to proceed CORRECTLY.

If you can find a lawyer that will really do some digging on the ordinance and the lake annexation, you can probably beat it. Good luck with the local small town judge though.Might be better off just being apologetic.

I bet the cops are having fun with it though! Wow they really got something! What a field day for Barney Fife! Hope they don't fall in the water!!!!
 
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It's no different than helicopters doing off airport / helipad landings. If its in a city ordinance, then you've violated their laws. I can't see an FAA violation other than 91.13 but I doubt that happens. Most likely a fine and they'll be on their way.
 
A "no motor vehicles" ordinance comes to mind as a possibility.
 
I think a good question to ask here is who would have been responsible for setting up a TFR and why didn't they do so? If they're that worried about security....
 
Some states have a state statute saying "a seaplane is not a vessel" which exempts them from boating laws. Those tend to be state statutes.
 
Minnesota DOT administrative rules specifically list Hazeltine Lake as a public Lake that is open to seaplane use. The city passed an ordinance that stated that "during the Ryder Cup, no person could operate, maintain at anchor, or be on a boat or other floating object on Lake Hazeltine." The ordinance carries a $300 fine.
Since the state lists the Lake as being accessible by seaplanes I doubt the FAA will do anything about the landing.
 
Wheels said:
Minnesota DOT administrative rules specifically list Hazeltine Lake as a public Lake that is open to seaplane use. The city passed an ordinance that stated that "during the Ryder Cup, no person could operate, maintain at anchor, or be on a boat or other floating object on Lake Hazeltine." The ordinance carries a $300 fine.
Since the state lists the Lake as being accessible by seaplanes I doubt the FAA will do anything about the landing.
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Doesn't say anything about submarines....
 
Seaplane troubles, dealt with "it's our lake" types myself, PITA

No TFR or airspace, the FAA doesn't give a hoot, not getting lower than 500' except for T/O or landing, FAA doesn't give a hoot.




It's just a matter of local boating laws, here the best I could find

http://www.chaskamn.com/DocumentCenter/Home/View/52

So only violation I could see would be, as long as they stayed in the "boating areas" and the designated anchor areas, would be:

Being over 35HP and over 10kts


Sound like a couple buck yocal ticket type of thing.

Wheels said:
Minnesota DOT administrative rules specifically list Hazeltine Lake as a public Lake that is open to seaplane use. The city passed an ordinance that stated that "during the Ryder Cup, no person could operate, maintain at anchor, or be on a boat or other floating object on Lake Hazeltine." The ordinance carries a $300 fine.
Since the state lists the Lake as being accessible by seaplanes I doubt the FAA will do anything about the landing.
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Even if the state said it was illegal to land on that lake, it's not the Feds fight, it's state enforcement not FSDO



Knight called the pilot’s actions “imbecilic” and “stupid.”

“In this day and age, with all the things that I think even the most casual person is aware of in regards to security, threats and potential dangers ... to roll the dice and not even think there is potential for not having a mishap or getting our attention is beyond me,” the chief said.

The pilot and passenger are “afoot,” Knight said. The plane will stay where it is until the Ryder Cup is completely done.

Did the pilot know he’d made a mistake? “He claimed he didn’t, but I can’t imagine he didn’t.

Lake Hazeltine has no public access. All of the shoreline is privately owned, Knight said.

Two canoeists who arrived on the lake shortly after the plane landed also were cited by police. Earlier in the tournament, police had to ask two kayakers to leave the lake, too. On Wednesday, a helicopter flew “way too low” over the tournament. Officials were waiting for him when he landed “and he’s got some repercussions,” Knight said.
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Local yocal bubba cop sounds like a tool bag, I don't think he is remotely qualified to judge the pilots landing, as reckless, please.

Also why does he let kayaks and canoes go with a warning and forces the aircraft to remain anchored? If she breaks free or has other damage is this yocal cop shop going to cut a check for damages.

Little man needs to off his little hill, his 5 minutes on national fame have expired, go write a Prius a ticket or tell a kid to quit skateboarding or something.
 
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I think the State and Federal statutes and laws trump the town ordinance. The town should have filed a notam. without it, they don't have much on which to base their case.
All he had to do was put some oil on the windshield and claim "Pan-Pan".
Not that I would ever advocate someone doing that.
 
Pic

161003-ryder-watercraft.jpg


Seems the owner is a Minnesota HAVAC business owner, PPL SEL, MEL, SES, IFR, and typed in a Citation.
 
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The overreaction (IMO) reminds me of the incident when someone flew their plane "too close" to a nuclear power plant, and the local law enforcement got their panties in a wad. I'm interested to see how this one goes.
 
rbridges said:
The overreaction (IMO) reminds me of the incident when someone flew their plane "too close" to a nuclear power plant, and the local law enforcement got their panties in a wad. I'm interested to see how this one goes.
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I wonder if the "suspect" will be released under similar conditions, i.e. only after signing a waiver promising not to discuss the event with anyone ever and not to sue for illegal detainment or "general dumba**ory" by the local LEO.
 
Any Minnesota water lawyers on the board?

My best guess from reading onlien is that Hazeltine Lake is a public lake.

http://files.dnr.state.mn.us/waters/watermgmt_section/pwi/CARV2OF2.pdf
http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/lakefind/lake.html?id=10001400

The shore may all be private, but those people just own the lakebed, not the water. So it's a question of what activities a local municipality can actually regulate on the lake.

I think it's foolish for the police to throw around words like "stupid" and "imbecilic" on this one. The proper headline should read "Imbecilic Chaska Officials Organize International Golf Tournament Without Protecting Airspace." Today's Star Tribune update article repeats the quotes from the cops but adds one from the FAA, that there were no TFRs.
 
Time for a "Fly-in" to Hazelton Lake. Can we get 100 float guys out there this week?
 
rbridges said:
The overreaction (IMO) reminds me of the incident when someone flew their plane "too close" to a nuclear power plant, and the local law enforcement got their panties in a wad. I'm interested to see how this one goes.
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Bad analogy. The nuclear power plant law is a good one and anyone who flys who pays even scant attention knows not to do this. It's the Feds. In this case it's state and some local drone cops. He obviously has money , is a business man,could know the area and he's flying a super cub worth well over a hundred grand ,maybe has landed there before. If one remembers three mile island ( I do) and how close it came to a big disaster, killing 300 thousand people is a conservative estimate, then you realize its not at all the same.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
The nuclear power plant law is a good one and anyone who flys who pays even scant attention knows not to do this.
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What law? I'm not aware of a law or regulation on flying near nuclear plants other than the normal minimum altitude rules.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Bad analogy. The nuclear power plant law is a good one and anyone who flys who pays even scant attention knows not to do this. It's the Feds. In this case it's state and some local drone cops. He obviously has money , is a business man,could know the area and he's flying a super cub worth well over a hundred grand ,maybe has landed there before. If one remembers three mile island ( I do) and how close it came to a big disaster, killing 300 thousand people is a conservative estimate, then you realize its not at all the same.
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Read up a bit on containment design criteria and why some containments were rebuilt/strengthened in the 80s(or so). Nobody in the business with half a brain is worried in the least about a small plane.
 
The ban on flying over nuclear plants was dropped quite a while ago. I've been over the Indian Point plant a number of times in the last couple of years.
IMG_3544.JPG
 
We have a nuclear reactor at our local iniversity (not many people know, they'd probably freak and move away).
There is no no-fly zone, we routinely pass overhead, circle while sigt-seeing over the city etc. Heck, airliner pass over it (thought probably at 3,000' AGL) every single day.
If there was a regulation against overflying nuclear reactors, I'd be in jail every year. :)

Now as for the 100-floatplane fly-in, I am in! :-D
 
Entry tickets for Sunday were $400 each. Parking and transfers were additional. This pilot got entry to the event and very convenient parking for the price of a citation. He even got a water taxi shuttle thrown in. Smart. Very smart.
 
Stewartb said:
Entry tickets for Sunday were $400 each. Parking and transfers were additional. This pilot got entry to the event and very convenient parking for the price of a citation. He even got a water taxi shuttle thrown in. Smart. Very smart.
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I play some golf and occasionally watch it on TV but there is no way in hell that I would pay $400 to watch it live. As to the event in question, if the lake is normally approved for seaplanes and the only notice of the town ordinance was in the local paper, there is no expectation that the pilot would know of it. This is one of many times that the old adage "ignorance of the law is no excuse" proves to be a flawed standard. If you look on Google map, you will see how little of the lake is bordered by the golf course. The ordinance was stupid and the cop was an arse for making the comments he did.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Bad analogy. The nuclear power plant law is a good one and anyone who flys who pays even scant attention knows not to do this. It's the Feds. In this case it's state and some local drone cops. He obviously has money , is a business man,could know the area and he's flying a super cub worth well over a hundred grand ,maybe has landed there before. If one remembers three mile island ( I do) and how close it came to a big disaster, killing 300 thousand people is a conservative estimate, then you realize its not at all the same.
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I flyover the local nuke plant all the time. Its straight off the runway here, a couple miles south of it. NBD.
 
The best part of the story is that the engine in the boat the cops were using to "patrol" the lake, quit when they were trying to get to the plane and they had to row out there. Hilarious
 
Let me set this strait for the rest of you. I spent almost fifteen years living in that cesspool called Minnesota. Rule number 1- if you are having fun in Minnesota, it is illegal
Rule 2- Minnesota hasn't found a tax it doesn't like
Rule 3- oh no you don't, did you get your permit so you can pay the license fee and the sales tax so you can apply for the actual license after you submit three forms of picture I.D with a tax voucher and filled in triplicate on next Wednesday between three and three fifteen mountain time. Pay up sucka!
 
I take it there is a public dock at this lake. Is it the city cops that normally police it?
 
tree96 said:
The best part of the story is that the engine in the boat the cops were using to "patrol" the lake, quit when they were trying to get to the plane and they had to row out there. Hilarious
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Made me chortle when I read it.
 
I did find it interesting that they didn't issue a TFR for the Ryder Cup, I've seen them issued for Twins games and late in the season they were drawing nobody to that dumpster fire!

So, I know the FAA issues the TFR, but who's the governing body that would request it to be issued? And isn't that where the "screw-up" is here?

I am from MN and looked for a TFR over the weekend but didn't see one, as I was going to be flying (not anywhere near Chaska). I did hear a lot of GA engine noise while watching the event on TV too.
 
Acrodustertoo said:
Let me set this strait for the rest of you. I spent almost fifteen years living in that cesspool called Minnesota.
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Yeah, it's a cesspool. That's why it's consistently ranked 1 or 2 when you see a list of states with best quality of life.

Let me guess. You moved to Alabama or Mississippi. Consistently ranked 49 and 50.
 
James331 said:
Pic

161003-ryder-watercraft.jpg


Seems the owner is Minnisota HAVAC business owner, PPL SEL, MEL, SES, IFR, and typed in a Citation.
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Now I've had the rental car pulled up and the "red carpet" rolled out at a few FBO's but that's what I call service! I hope he gives them a stellar review on AirNav and foreflight.
 
timwinters said:
You moved to Alabama or Mississippi. Consistently ranked 49 and 50.
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That statement displays your ignorance. I've lived all over the USA and a few foreign countries and I love Alabama. But keep adding to the stereotype if it blows your skirt up. Probably never have even been in the South.
 
I lived and worked all across the south for five years or more. Built (about) 6 projects in Louisiana, 4 in Mississippi, 8 in Alabama and too many to count in Georgia.

I'm not adding to any stereotypes...I'm just stating facts. Alabama and Mississippi regularly finish in the last two positions in quality of life polls that use objective criteria. Louisiana isn't too far behind and Georgia is usually in the bottom 10.

Actually, your statement displays your ignorance. Living there, you should be familiar with this data.

Edit: And BTW...I typically had to bring crews in from other states so I could actually finish projects on time. Saying that people down there move in SloMo is an understatement.

2nd Edit: I've also built projects all across OH, MI, WI, MN, & The Dakotas. Great people with a great work ethic all across those states.
 
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I'm not a big fan of polls and "stats", they are easy to change and skew, for me it's based of personal experiences.

I really enjoyed my time the Georgia, the folks were great, the country and the red dirt was beautiful, not a huge fan of a gnats / humidity or hate of floatplanes, but that isn't the end of the world. I found even the poorer folks knew how to have fun and appeared to live much richer and fuller lives compared to their poor counterparts in the big cities, the more well off folks had beautiful stretches of land and really beautiful homes, much nicer than the small 1M+ "cubicles" of SFO and NYC. Now this wasn't Atlanta, never went that far north, nor had the desire to, but the south south, I quite liked.
 
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