Flight to Mammoth

amoel

amoel

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amoel
Hello. I’m considering flying with my wife and two daughters from San Diego to Mammoth on 12/29. I fly an SR22T FIKI. I’m current instruments and have recently taken the ice awareness and mountain flying courses. The weather is forecast (so far) light snow, cloud coverage 80%+, light winds. Any advice from people familiar with the area? Route recommendations, etc.
 
Have not flown that route but the winds are strong enough to shake a car on the road with serious possibility of causing a car to lose control. I imagine that the airport is particularly challenging, plus you used the word “recently taken” a mountain flying course. Have you got trapped in a mountain wave before? Box canyon? What are your IFR wx personal minimums? It is a lot of factors that will make this a risky flight, I would try to get practice with some other routes first or ensure conditions are completely VFR so you’ll have less factors to deal with (wind, mountains).
 
You want to stay west of the Sierras until FRA-V230-RBRTS. And, the MEA is 14,300, but expect 15,000. As I am sure you've determined there is only one IAP with high minimums. You can pick up V-459 at SLI. Unless procedures have changed SoCal with let you fly V-459 across the Los Angeles Class B at 10,000. V-459 is the best route to FRA, then V-230 to NIKOL, then the IAP. Avoid arriving over BIH. Avoid circle to land to Runway 09, if possible. Note that circling is not authorized at night.

I wouldn't go above 10,000 until you have to (MCA at FRA is 10,400).

Basically, unless winds prohibit, MMH is land west, depart east.
 
amoel said:
Hello. I’m considering flying with my wife and two daughters from San Diego to Mammoth on 12/29. I fly an SR22T FIKI. I’m current instruments and have recently taken the ice awareness and mountain flying courses. The weather is forecast (so far) light snow, cloud coverage 80%+, light winds. Any advice from people familiar with the area? Route recommendations, etc.
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I've done this flight many many times, I've even done it in N384W! I *once* flew west of the Sierras and crossed at the FRA VOR and I swore never again.. granted that trip had other challenges, including moderate ice (thanks max mode!), 50+ knots winds aloft with turbulence, and plenty of IMC with a missed approach into MMH and a landing at my alternate Bishop. That trip was a good learning experience for me... Otherwise **IF** the ceilings are high enough, I much more highly recommend going up Owens Valley. If R2505, R2515, and R2506 are open you can cruise right up, otherwise just stay between them and the mountains. Assuming they're closed my route usually goes something like:

MYF - coastal route - MHV - IYK - O26 - 2O7 - BIH - MMH
^that route is easy, is mostly a straight line, you have several alternate options, rental cars at IYK and Bishop, and in my experience the ceilings stay high. The winds can still give you a jostle, but I've stayed around 9,5 and 10,5 and avoid the middle of the valley.. I get the smoothest rides up going up on the western edge of the valley. If you stay west of the Sierras you're basically screwed if you can't cross at FRA for whatever reason. You also pass a fair amount of "let's really not pull the chute here" terrain, esp in the winter. Any issues in Owens you're going to either make it to an airport or probably just walk to the 395.. might even still be able to continue your ski trip

And now for gratuitous photo time, sunset facing southwest from Owens Valley, Lake Isabella is somewhere up there in that photo.. you'll notice I opted for a lower cruise (65%) as we still had jolts headed south
upload_2022-12-23_10-5-29.png
 
mandm said:
Have not flown that route but the winds are strong enough to shake a car on the road with serious possibility of causing a car to lose control. I imagine that the airport is particularly challenging, plus you used the word “recently taken” a mountain flying course. Have you got trapped in a mountain wave before? Box canyon? What are your IFR wx personal minimums? It is a lot of factors that will make this a risky flight, I would try to get practice with some other routes first or ensure conditions are completely VFR so you’ll have less factors to deal with (wind, mountains).
Click to expand...
Which is why I prefer going up Owens valley, it eases you into Mammoth and gives you plenty of alternates. You really should not get into a box canyon situation on this trip unless you've really botched your planning or gotten behind the airplane, and thanks to the topography Bishop generally will still have acceptable weather even if Mammoth turns out not as forecast.. IE land there and rent a car and drive the last 40 minutes
 
Tantalum said:
I've done this flight many many times, I've even done it in N384W! I *once* flew west of the Sierras and crossed at the FRA VOR and I swore never again.. granted that trip had other challenges, including moderate ice (thanks max mode!), 50+ knots winds aloft with turbulence, and plenty of IMC with a missed approach into MMH and a landing at my alternate Bishop. That trip was a good learning experience for me... Otherwise **IF** the ceilings are high enough, I much more highly recommend going up Owens Valley. If R2505, R2515, and R2506 are open you can cruise right up, otherwise just stay between them and the mountains. Assuming they're closed my route usually goes something like:

MYF - coastal route - MHV - IYK - O26 - 2O7 - BIH - MMH
^that route is easy, is mostly a straight line, you have several alternate options, rental cars at IYK and Bishop, and in my experience the ceilings stay high. The winds can still give you a jostle, but I've stayed around 9,5 and 10,5 and avoid the middle of the valley.. I get the smoothest rides up going up on the western edge of the valley. If you stay west of the Sierras you're basically screwed if you can't cross at FRA for whatever reason. You also pass a fair amount of "let's really not pull the chute here" terrain, esp in the winter. Any issues in Owens you're going to either make it to an airport or probably just walk to the 395.. might even still be able to continue your ski trip

And now for gratuitous photo time, sunset facing southwest from Owens Valley, Lake Isabella is somewhere up there in that photo.. you'll notice I opted for a lower cruise (65%) as we still had jolts headed south
View attachment 113307
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Hi! Thanks! How did you know it would be relevant for me that you flew this on N384W? Have we met?

I’m also considering going east of the mountains if the winds are light. And Plan B is driving and I’m not going to hesitate to make that decision as late as one night before.

I see though that east of the Sierra Nevada there are no airways and I’m not sure if the controllers will for sure clear me through that route.
I’m thinking starting the IAP on BIH-JASAT etc.
 
aterpster said:
You want to stay west of the Sierras until FRA-V230-RBRTS. And, the MEA is 14,300, but expect 15,000. As I am sure you've determined there is only one IAP with high minimums. You can pick up V-459 at SLI. Unless procedures have changed SoCal with let you fly V-459 across the Los Angeles Class B at 10,000. V-459 is the best route to FRA, then V-230 to NIKOL, then the IAP. Avoid arriving over BIH. Avoid circle to land to Runway 09, if possible. Note that circling is not authorized at night.

I wouldn't go above 10,000 until you have to (MCA at FRA is 10,400).

Basically, unless winds prohibit, MMH is land west, depart east.
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Thanks! Why do you suggest west of the mountains as a much better option?
 
East of the mountains is the better option. If it is too windy to be on the east side, you shouldn't be landing at MMH.

Important tips: Bishop is your alternate. Don't be afraid to get all the way to MMH and decide it is a bad idea to land there.

Weather radar coverage east of the mountains is NOT RELIABLE. There can be no returns on the radar, but lower clouds and active rain/snow showers on the east side, as far south as just north of China Lake. Proceed with caution.

Look at temperatures for your departure too. If you don't have access to a hangar, you may want/need preheat.
 
amoel said:
Hi! Thanks! How did you know it would be relevant for me that you flew this on N384W? Have we met?
Click to expand...
haha I saw the avatar and figured it needed a closer look, I flew that plane a bunch a number of years ago

amoel said:
I see though that east of the Sierra Nevada there are no airways and I’m not sure if the controllers will for sure clear me through that route.
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No airways but the airspace is relatively quiet and Joshua approach is nice. They won't hear you under about 5,5K or 6,5K though. I prefer the illusion of safety in Owens going VFR, there are many airports and the 395 under you

I'm local and happy to chat about flights, etc., just send me a direct message if you are interested
 
Jeff Oslick said:
East of the mountains is the better option. If it is too windy to be on the east side, you shouldn't be landing at MMH.

Important tips: Bishop is your alternate. Don't be afraid to get all the way to MMH and decide it is a bad idea to land there.

Weather radar coverage east of the mountains is NOT RELIABLE. There can be no returns on the radar, but lower clouds and active rain/snow showers on the east side, as far south as just north of China Lake. Proceed with caution.

Look at temperatures for your departure too. If you don't have access to a hangar, you may want/need preheat.
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I do not have access to a hangar, are preheating services readily available?
 
If you want to go IFR to get out of SoCal, that's fine, but planning for winter IMC into MMH in a piston single, FIKI or not, is a recipe for an accident report. I've been on an ATR-72 into MMH in winter IMC, and that was nerve-wracking enough, just sitting in back.
 
Last time I was there, both BIH and MMH had electric outlets and long cords. I haven't flow 84W in a while but I recall she had a plug in the cowl. Pretty sure hotcreek got me plugged in the day before my departure and the oil was a toasty 90* when I went to start up
 
I've landed at KMMH in some rather sporty winds (12+ kt crosswind and pretty wild ride all the way to the ground). I was just about ready to go around when the gusts lessened just long enough to plant it on the ground. I was solo on that flight, and would not have subjected non-pilots to those conditions. Read the airport notes about landing long to avoid turbulence coming off the hill next to the runway.
 
Tantalum said:
haha I saw the avatar and figured it needed a closer look, I flew that plane a bunch a number of years ago


No airways but the airspace is relatively quiet and Joshua approach is nice. They won't hear you under about 5,5K or 6,5K though. I prefer the illusion of safety in Owens going VFR, there are many airports and the 395 under you

I'm local and happy to chat about flights, etc., just send me a direct message if you are interested
Click to expand...
Any advise on which is the best altitude through The Valley to generally avoid the worst turbulence in case it is windy? Thanks!’
 
Tantalum said:
I've done this flight many many times, I've even done it in N384W! I *once* flew west of the Sierras and crossed at the FRA VOR and I swore never again.. granted that trip had other challenges, including moderate ice (thanks max mode!), 50+ knots winds aloft with turbulence, and plenty of IMC with a missed approach into MMH and a landing at my alternate Bishop. That trip was a good learning experience for me... Otherwise **IF** the ceilings are high enough, I much more highly recommend going up Owens Valley. If R2505, R2515, and R2506 are open you can cruise right up, otherwise just stay between them and the mountains. Assuming they're closed my route usually goes something like:

MYF - coastal route - MHV - IYK - O26 - 2O7 - BIH - MMH
^that route is easy, is mostly a straight line, you have several alternate options, rental cars at IYK and Bishop, and in my experience the ceilings stay high. The winds can still give you a jostle, but I've stayed around 9,5 and 10,5 and avoid the middle of the valley.. I get the smoothest rides up going up on the western edge of the valley. If you stay west of the Sierras you're basically screwed if you can't cross at FRA for whatever reason. You also pass a fair amount of "let's really not pull the chute here" terrain, esp in the winter. Any issues in Owens you're going to either make it to an airport or probably just walk to the 395.. might even still be able to continue your ski trip

And now for gratuitous photo time, sunset facing southwest from Owens Valley, Lake Isabella is somewhere up there in that photo.. you'll notice I opted for a lower cruise (65%) as we still had jolts headed south
View attachment 113307
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Interesting. Why avoid the middle of The Valley? Also when you say western edge what exactly do you mean? Over the actual ridge?
 
The current forecast at Mammoth Lakes is for three days of snow starting on the 29th.

This plan would make me nervous.
 
Palmpilot said:
The current forecast at Mammoth Lakes is for three days of snow starting on the 29th.

This plan would make me nervous.
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At the time of my arrival (noon on the 29th) I see 9k AGL ceilings and VFR with 3kts winds see image. How accurate will this be? I guess I’ll just be ready for Bishop.
 

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amoel said:
Any advise on which is the best altitude through The Valley to generally avoid the worst turbulence in case it is windy? Thanks!’
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my general rule of thumb for flying up the Owens Valley is not to attempt if the winds at 14k are 30kts or above and blowing from the west (over the ridges).

Whitney is 14.5K, so unless you are several thousand feet above, your gonna be feeling any mountain waves coming over those ridges. That said, 10.5 is a comfortable altitude. Any lower and the Sherwin Grade sneaks up on you real fast.
 
amoel said:
At the time of my arrival (noon on the 29th) I see 9k AGL ceilings and VFR with 3kts winds see image. How accurate will this be? I guess I’ll just be ready for Bishop.
Click to expand...

I was looking at the ten-day forecast on this site:

https://www.wunderground.com/forecast/us/ca/mammoth-lakes

Part of what makes me nervous is that it looks like conditions will be worsening after your arrival. What is your planned return date?

Another thing that makes me nervous is that I'm under the impression that icing tends to be worse in the vicinity of high mountains. My understanding is that there is a limit to how bad the icing a FIKI airplane can handle is, and for how long. There are a lot of mountains between you and Mammoth.
 
The Owens Valley is NOT the way to go.
 
aterpster said:
The Owens Valley is NOT the way to go.
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Based on what, exactly? You have far more options in the Owens Valley. Crossing the Sierras in the winter time in a piston single is a significant risk factor. Even where there are alpine valleys for emergency landing, doing so in deep snow is not likely to work out well.
 
Palmpilot said:
I was looking at the ten-day forecast on this site:

https://www.wunderground.com/forecast/us/ca/mammoth-lakes

Part of what makes me nervous is that it looks like conditions will be worsening after your arrival. What is your planned return date?

Another thing that makes me nervous is that I'm under the impression that icing tends to be worse in the vicinity of high mountains. My understanding is that there is a limit to how bad the icing a FIKI airplane can handle is, and for how long. There are a lot of mountains between you and Mammoth.
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Planning on returning on 1/1/23. I also like wunderground use it a lot. Thanks!
 
Jeff Oslick said:
Based on what, exactly? You have far more options in the Owens Valley. Crossing the Sierras in the winter time in a piston single is a significant risk factor. Even where there are alpine valleys for emergency landing, doing so in deep snow is not likely to work out well.
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The exposure is minimal on V230 FRA-NIKOL. If engine failure is of serious concern, that becomes quite limiting beyond this trip.
 
aterpster said:
The exposure is minimal on V230 FRA-NIKOL. If engine failure is of serious concern, that becomes quite limiting beyond this trip.
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At best, that rationale makes it acceptable to fly that route. It does not provide a reason why Owens Valley is NOT an acceptable route.
 
aterpster said:
Count the number of airports from PMD to BIH and count the number from LHS to MMH.

Take a weather course about winter flying in the Owens Valley vs. The valley from LHS to FRA.
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Pardon my ignorance, but doesn’t your route require crossing 40nm of granite? I would rather stay over a valley in a single, but don’t have any piston time in the mtns.

87705BBC-C8D5-4398-B3DB-2216A100A2F6.jpeg
 
texasclouds said:
Pardon my ignorance, but doesn’t your route require crossing 40nm of granite? I would rather stay over a valley in a single, but don’t have any piston time in the mtns.

View attachment 113490
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I'm not saying this decides the issue, but the route he specified follows V230, which stays over lower terrain for longer than the route you drew.
 
texasclouds said:
Pardon my ignorance, but doesn’t your route require crossing 40nm of granite? I would rather stay over a valley in a single, but don’t have any piston time in the mtns.
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I have a friend who lived in Mammoth and had a Mooney. He always used V230 when flying to Southern California.
 
aterpster said:
Count the number of airports from PMD to BIH and count the number from LHS to MMH.

Take a weather course about winter flying in the Owens Valley vs. The valley from LHS to FRA.
Click to expand...

It isn't about the number of airports, it is about the overall risk exposure for the flight. I can land and walk away about just about anywhere on a route in the Owen's Valley. Probably hitch a ride to the nearest town and be drinking coffee within an hour. This is about winter survival risk. If you're in a piston single on that 40 mile route across the Sierras and the fan quits at the wrong time, it doesn't matter what your piloting skills are, you are probably going to die awaiting rescue if you survived the crash. Even the 406 MHz ELT can't be counted on to be your savior. By the time the helicopter can get to you, it could well be night, and the next day the weather could be impossible for helicopter extraction. Assuming you were in a place where helicopter extraction was even possible. You probably wouldn't survive one night unless you are a winter survival expert. Your glide distance at piston single altitudes over that terrain is going to be very limited. There are no roads for the rescuers to use, or for you to target for emergency landing spots.

I know the winter weather along these routes very well. I've studied it, I've flown it, and I've driven it. Those mountains need to not only be respected, they need to be feared.

I can't think of any weather pattern that would make it more desirable in the winter to fly over that stretch of the Sierras than the Owen's Valley. If the weather is too bad in the OV, it isn't going to be flyable to cross the granite and ice.
 
I saw at least one comment above that Aterpster doesn't know what he's talking about. If my suspicion is right (based on similar posts on BeechTalk), I'd bet he knows more than most of us and that he has a solid resume of both commercial airline captain and one of the guys who was actively involved in designing instrument approaches and airspace. Don't be too quick to discount him, he has a wealth of knowledge. I do wonder though, if he is looking at this through the eyes of someone who's flown big iron with much more capability than some others here on POA.

I've flown to MMH many times. I've used the Owens valley and I've taken the FRA - NIKOL routing Aterpster mentions. As I see it, the real issue is how much wind you're dealing with and where it is coming from.
If winds are perpendicular (or within ~30 degrees of that) to the ridgeline, then it's going to be rough going up the Owens valley. Picture water running over rocks in white water rapids, those tumbling rollers of white wash happen in the air after the wind comes off the ridgeline. If there is more than about 30 knots of wind crossing that ridge, then you need to be high enough to stay out of those rotors. The problem is, some of those mountains are among the highest in the country.

The FRA-NIKOL routing shortens your time dealing with the rough stuff and keeps you up the Central valley of California where there are plenty of "outs" if you need them. The challenge is that you need to plan have O2 available and a plane that can perform at altitudes above 13,500 (that'd be my VFR minimum). When I say perform, I mean actually able to climb and comfortably able to go to 15,500 or higher. Steve Fosset was killed trying to outclimb down drafts in the Owens valley. He flew all kinds of high performance aircraft and set world records, but that day, he was in an underpowered Citabria (If I recall correctly). A C172 is not a plane I'd take on this route unless winds were minor and I was certain that there are no surprises waiting for me - coming and going. I remember reading about a King Air that got surprised by a mountain rotor here in clear air. They landed at MMH, but the King Air was totaled by the damage caused to the wing and the spar.

If winds are running up and down the valley, then I take the valley every time. I've been in steady 50 knot headwinds on this route. Aside from being a SLOW trip, the air was smooth all the way. The return flight was fast though :)

Weather at MMH changes. That is about the only thing I would count on. Don't assume that your forecast is worth as much as you're used to in more stable areas of the country.
 
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JEB said:
...If winds are running up and down the valley, then I take the valley every time....
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I'm guessing that you mean Owens Valley and not San Joaquin Valley.
 
Both routes involve a valley, so it seemed a little ambiguous. :dunno:
 
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