Flight time as a pilot

Antoine137

Antoine137

Filing Flight Plan
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Warning: This is a long post. I have tried to use correct spelling & grammar to at least make it bearable.

Hopefully people smarter than me can help me figure out some questions/scenarios. I have done my research, but maybe I am just looking in the wrong place. Thank you in advance.

To get a commercial certificate, part 61.129 mentions "...must log at least 250 hours of flight time as a pilot..."

To get an airline transport pilot certificate, part 61.159 mentions "...must have at least 1,500 hours of total time as a pilot..."

What is considered "flight time as a pilot" and "total time as a pilot"?

From part 1.1:
Flight time means:
(1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing; or
(2) For a glider without self-launch capability, pilot time that commences when the glider is towed for the purpose of flight and ends when the glider comes to rest after landing.

So, I found the definition for pilot time.

From part 61.1:
Pilot time means that time in which a person—
(i) Serves as a required pilot flight crewmember;
(ii) Receives training from an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device; or
(iii) Gives training as an authorized instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight training device.


Surprisingly enough, with all the definitions provided in 1.1 and 61.1, there is not a definition for "pilot". Just "pilot-in-command".

Scenario #1:
My friend and I buy a Mooney to get our commercial certificates. We hire an instructor and we fly to Florida (from Texas). I am in the front on the way there, and I am in the back on the return trip. Obviously, I can't count being in the back seat as PIC, X-C, etc. However, can I count it towards my 250 hours?
Flight time requirement is met due to the aircraft moving under it's own power with the intention of flight. Pilot time requirement is met due to paying attention to the instructor in front who is giving instruction (61.1(ii)).

Scenario #2:
I am now working towards my ATP. I get a job as a contract pilot being in the right seat of a King Air (insurance requirement for the charter company). I know I cannot log PIC, X-C, nor even SIC, because I am not a required crew member. However, I am a commercial multi rated pilot sitting at a pilot station. Does this count towards my 1,500 hours?
Note: This does NOT say "flight time as a pilot", it says "total time as a pilot", which is not defined in the regulations.

Scenario #3 (and this is way out there):
I am now type rated in Boeing 737, and I am commuting in the economy class cabin. Does this count for total time? I almost didn't put this scenario in because it lacks common sense...however, you made it this far into my post, might as well push the envelope.

Thank you for your responses, and thank you for spending half an hour reading my post.
 
#1, time in back seat does not count. Need to be manipulating the flight controls with your hands.

#2, just sitting in right seat does not count. Need to get a definition for logging SIC because of insurance requirement, do not think that counts. Again, can only log as PIC when your hands are on controls. Now if the left seat pilot is "under the hood" for currency then you can log as "acting PIC" if that is your agreement with Pilot under the hood.

#3, you are joking, yes?
 
Thank you for the reply.

For #1 and #2, I am not looking to log PIC/SIC time, where I need to be manipulating the controls. I am looking to be able to log "flight time as a pilot" and "total time as a pilot". I can't find a regulation that says I have to be the one manipulating the controls to have it count towards total time. i.e. The commercial certificate requires 250 hours, but only 100 hours of PIC time. How do I get 150 hours of non-PIC time (short of being a student pilot for 150 hours)?

For #3, yes, I am kidding...hope you enjoyed it.:lol:
 
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Antoine137 said:
Scenario #1:
My friend and I buy a Mooney to get our commercial certificates. We hire an instructor and we fly to Florida (from Texas). I am in the front on the way there, and I am in the back on the return trip. Obviously, I can't count being in the back seat as PIC, X-C, etc. However, can I count it towards my 250 hours?
Flight time requirement is met due to the aircraft moving under it's own power with the intention of flight. Pilot time requirement is met due to paying attention to the instructor in front who is giving instruction (61.1(ii)).
Click to expand...
No, it's not, and that's why it's not "pilot time" and can't be counted. You aren't serving as a required pilot crewmember and you aren't receiving training -- only the party in the left front seat is doing that. The fact that you're paying attention to an instructor giving training to someone else doesn't mean you are receiving flight training from that instructor.

Scenario #2:
I am now working towards my ATP. I get a job as a contract pilot being in the right seat of a King Air (insurance requirement for the charter company). I know I cannot log PIC, X-C, nor even SIC, because I am not a required crew member. However, I am a commercial multi rated pilot sitting at a pilot station. Does this count towards my 1,500 hours?
Click to expand...
No, it does not, as there is nothing in 14 CFR 61.51 allowing you to log it. If it isn't loggable under that regulation, it doesn't count for that Part 61 purpose.

Scenario #3 (and this is way out there):
I am now type rated in Boeing 737, and I am commuting in the economy class cabin. Does this count for total time? I almost didn't put this scenario in because it lacks common sense...however, you made it this far into my post, might as well push the envelope.
Click to expand...
Again, there is nothing in 61.51 allowing you to log that time, so for Part 61 purposes, it doesn't exist.
 
Scenario #2 would count if the OpSpec for the commercial operator required a crew of 2 in the KA. That time sitting in the right seat would be SIC and count towards total time. Any idea how many commercial operators have OpSpecs written this way?
 
I think it is becoming clearer. So, my friend and I are building up instrument time and PIC time for the ATP. He flies under the hood 2 hours away. He has the hood on for 1.7 hrs.

I am his safety pilot and acting PIC, so I can log 1.7 hours of PIC, and only 1.7 hours of total time. Flight duration column of the logbook would say 2.0 hours.

Question: So really, the "flight duration" column at the right side of my logbook is not my total time?
 
Antoine137 said:
I think it is becoming clearer. So, my friend and I are building up instrument time and PIC time for the ATP. He flies under the hood 2 hours away. He has the hood on for 1.7 hrs.

I am his safety pilot and acting PIC, so I can log 1.7 hours of PIC, and only 1.7 hours of total time. Flight duration column of the logbook would say 2.0 hours.
Click to expand...
2.0 for him, 1.7 for you. You don't log flight time which doesn't qualify in some way as flight time under 61.51, and the time you're sitting there watching your pal fly the plane without the hood doesn't qualify as flight time under any paragraph of 61.51 unless you're flying a Learjet or other 2-pilot aircraft, or you're flying 135/121 with two pilots required by the Ops Specs. The fact that the airplane was flying longer than what you can legally log doesn't change what you can legally log.

Question: So really, the "flight duration" column at the right side of my logbook is not my total time?
Click to expand...
It's your total flight time. Your total pilot time would include other things like time in the sim.
 
airheadpenguin said:
Scenario #2 would count if the OpSpec for the commercial operator required a crew of 2 in the KA. That time sitting in the right seat would be SIC and count towards total time. Any idea how many commercial operators have OpSpecs written this way?
Click to expand...
My 135 does in the Caravan. I can log all the night, XC, IMC, ect...

And as for the OP's questions, without an aforementioned FAA approved OpSpec, I'd vote the straight "no" ticket.
 
HighFlyingA380 said:
My 135 does in the Caravan. I can log all the night, XC, IMC, ect...

And as for the OP's questions, without an aforementioned FAA approved OpSpec, I'd vote the straight "no" ticket.
Click to expand...

Also unless you have met 135 mins and completed your 135 company checks with their check airman you're just pax in the eyes of the FAA.

HighFlying, you're SIC in the van? IFR with no autopilot or something?
 
James331 said:
Also unless you have met 135 mins and completed your 135 company checks with their check airman you're just pax in the eyes of the FAA.

HighFlying, you're SIC in the van? IFR with no autopilot or something?
Click to expand...
We do have AP, but it's not the highest priority to fix if it craps out. Mostly the cities we serve (all but one) have a clause in the contract which requires a two pilot crew. I guess to make it look more professional and safer??? :dunno:

Either way, I'm not complaining...
 
HighFlyingA380 said:
We do have AP, but it's not the highest priority to fix if it craps out. Mostly the cities we serve (all but one) have a clause in the contract which requires a two pilot crew. I guess to make it look more professional and safer??? :dunno:

Either way, I'm not complaining...
Click to expand...

Do your OpSpecs call for a second pilot?
 
Antoine137 said:
I think it is becoming clearer. So, my friend and I are building up instrument time and PIC time for the ATP. He flies under the hood 2 hours away. He has the hood on for 1.7 hrs.

I am his safety pilot and acting PIC, so I can log 1.7 hours of PIC, and only 1.7 hours of total time. Flight duration column of the logbook would say 2.0 hours.

Question: So really, the "flight duration" column at the right side of my logbook is not my total time?
Click to expand...

Publishers of logbooks are on their own when it comes to labeling columns. What your logbook has printed in it is irrelevant insofar as regulations are concerned. My last three logbooks had no column designations at all, allowing me to categorize on my own.

Bob Gardner
 
Antoine137 said:
I think it is becoming clearer. So, my friend and I are building up instrument time and PIC time for the ATP. He flies under the hood 2 hours away. He has the hood on for 1.7 hrs.

I am his safety pilot and acting PIC, so I can log 1.7 hours of PIC, and only 1.7 hours of total time. Flight duration column of the logbook would say 2.0 hours.

Question: So really, the "flight duration" column at the right side of my logbook is not my total time?
Click to expand...

As Bob said, "Flight duration" is the logbook publisher's word, not the FAA's. Other similar phrases used include "Total Duration of Flight."

I think you're spending too much time dancing on the head of a pin on issues that really aren't there by trying to fit your entries into some publisher's shorthand for the rules rather than the rules themselves.

It's really much simpler than that. Every logbook entry column assumes that the time is some sort of legitimately loggable time that fits one or more 61.51 logging boxes. Those are actually pretty straightforward.
 
Thanks everyone for clarifying. I have read through 61.51 again, and it makes a whole lot more sense . I completely understand how the answer to scenario #2 is no, without an FAA approved OpSpec. I am still trying to figure out how scenario #1 is not loggable for total time from the back seat. If I am in flight, with a flight instructor, receiving instruction on the operation of a new (to me) aircraft, how that is not loggable. No where does 61.51 say I have to be manipulating the controls (that would be PIC). Is an instructor only allowed to give flight instruction to 1 person at a time on a flight?
 
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Antoine137 said:
I am still trying to figure out how scenario #1 is not loggable for total time from the back seat. If I am in flight, with a flight instructor, receiving instruction on the operation of a new (to me) aircraft, how that is not loggable. No where does 61.51 say I have to be manipulating the controls (that would be PIC). Is an instructor only allowed to give flight instruction to 1 person at a time on a flight?
Click to expand...
No, but whoever is receiving flight training pretty much has to be in a control seat. Note that it's possible and actually done for a CFI to sit in the back and give training to two people in the two control seats at once, usually involving a CFI trainee in the right front seat and a pilot trainee in the left front seat.

But I guarantee that as an instructor, I'm not signing anyone's pilot logbook as receiving flight training unless they're in a control seat. If you can find one who'll sign your log as receiving flight training while you are sitting in the back while the instructor is in the second control seat giving training to someone else i in the first control seat, I'd love to hear about it. And the local FSDO probably would, too.
 
Scenario 1, you are either in the left seat under the hood, or the right seat as safety pilot under the hood, the CFI-I is in the back instructing you on how to instruct and your partner on instruments. All three of you log PIC for the time the view limiting device is on. :popcorn:
 
Henning said:
Scenario 1, you are either in the left seat under the hood, or the right seat as safety pilot under the hood, the CFI-I is in the back instructing you on how to instruct and your partner on instruments. All three of you log PIC for the time the view limiting device is on. :popcorn:
Click to expand...
Not necessarily. When the instructor is in the back seat for instrument training, the safety pilot isn't necessarily acting as PIC, and in that scenario with the hooded pilot as PIC, the safety pilot in the right seat can only log SIC time. There are other issues besides which of the two people up front is acting as PIC, including which of them is manipulating the controls, and that affects who can log PIC time.
 
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Greg Bockelman said:
Do your OpSpecs call for a second pilot?
Click to expand...

All 135 IFR Pax carrying ops require 2 pilots. Some operators OpsSpecs allow an exemption to fly single pilot IFR if you have a working autopilot, but it's up to the operator if they're going to exercise that ability or not. That's how you have 2 guys in a single pilot airplane.
 
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