Flight School students & owner arrested

[wsuffa]

Link

STOW — Federal officials have arrested dozens of alleged illegal immigrants connected to a flight school in Stow, including the school’s owner and students who received US government clearance to train as pilots despite strict security controls put into place after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.

The arrests of 34 Brazilian nationals that began in July and concluded quietly last month raise troubling new questions about possible holes in the government’s antiterrorism security net,

Let's try and keep this about aviation instead of politics. Don't want to have to close this or throw it over to Spin Zone.

 

[steingar]

Donald Rumsfeld is giving the president his daily briefing. He concludes by saying: "Yesterday, 3 Brazilian soldiers were killed."

"OH NO!" the President exclaims. "That's terrible!"

His staff sits stunned at this display of emotion, nervously watching as the President sits, head in hands.

Finally, the President looks up and asks, "How many is a brazillion?"


Just couldn't resist.

 

[wabower]

And just last month Rham was telling the dumb guy's replacement how well things are going.

Donald Rumsfeld is giving the president his daily briefing. He concludes by saying: "Yesterday, 3 Brazilian soldiers were killed."

"OH NO!" the President exclaims. "That's terrible!"

His staff sits stunned at this display of emotion, nervously watching as the President sits, head in hands.

Finally, the President looks up and asks, "How many is a brazillion?"


Just couldn't resist.

 

[TMetzinger]

I'm shocked, SHOCKED that TSA would clear people who were in this country illegally.

But seriously, one of the following is true.

The students WERE legal aliens when they got their TSA checks done and are no longer legal. - Not TSA's fault unless TSA is supposed to continuously monitor these folks.
The students WERE legal aliens when they got their TSA checks done and still ARE legal aliens - it's possible that the report is wrong.
The students WERE illegal aliens and the checks were not done or forged - bad news for the school
The students WERE illegal aliens and TSA didn't check this status - TSA's fault
The students WERE illegal aliens and TSA checked their status with ICE - and got bad/no data back.


Frankly, I didn't think immigration status was part of the TSA check.

 

[Steve Foley]

"How many is a brazillion?"

That's really funny.

This flight school is pretty close to home. About as far from my house as the airport I used to fly out of.

I wonder what the outcome will be. I think it shows a that the current requirements are worthless. Unfortunately, I'm sure the TSA will claim it's only because the requirements were not burdensome enough.

 

[weilke]

I'm shocked, SHOCKED that TSA would clear people who were in this country illegally.

But seriously, one of the following is true.

I doubt that they where 'illegal aliens' in the sense of folks swimming accross the river. I suspect they had been issued visas for a different purpose (e.g. to attend a university or as tourists) and then obtained flight training. The rules are a bit fuzzy on this and neither TSA nor state department are willing to give guidance when asked a specific question.

 

[sba55]

I doubt that they where 'illegal aliens' in the sense of folks swimming accross the river. I suspect they had been issued visas for a different purpose (e.g. to attend a university or as tourists) and then obtained flight training. The rules are a bit fuzzy on this and neither TSA nor state department are willing to give guidance when asked a specific question.

No, the rules aren't fuzzy on this. It's perfectly fine to receive flight training while being on a student visa.

Most likely, these guys just overstayed beyond their status expiration (visa is irrelevant once in the US).

 

[weilke]

No, the rules aren't fuzzy on this. It's perfectly fine to receive flight training while being on a student visa.

Just to be clear: I mean a student visa issued for non-aviation purpose. E.g. someone here to get an MBA who is a student in good standing at his school but wants to obtain his ratings in addition. Never been able to get a straight answer from state or USCIS.

As for the brasilians: Given the numbers of illegal brasilians in Boston, there is in fact a good chance that they were just that.

 

[gismo]

This brings to mind a question I thought of way back when the rules went into place WRT vetting and reporting the training of foreign nationals in the US.

Seems to me that while flight training is/was more readily available and less expensive here than in most other countries, this isn't the only place that such training takes place. Wouldn't it have made more sense to just have some government operative visit flight schools and get names and addresses of all student pilots (along with the location of their training facility) and then let the TSA, NSA, FBI, or other IAG (idiots in government) use their vast knowledge and resources to determine which if any are potential threats? If this were done covertly neither the schools nor the students would even be aware of the scrutiny. Then the FBI could monitor the suspicious ones secretly and learn more about any terrorist operation being planned. What we have now seems likely to drive potential terrorists seeking flight training to facilities outside the US where our government would have little if any means to check up on them.

 

[weilke]

Seems to me that while flight training is/was more readily available and less expensive here than in most other countries, this isn't the only place that such training takes place. Wouldn't it have made more sense to just have some government operative visit flight schools and get names and addresses of all student pilots (along with the location of their training facility) and then let the TSA, NSA, FBI, or other IAG (idiots in government) use their vast knowledge and resources to determine which if any are potential threats? If this were done covertly neither the schools nor the students would even be aware of the scrutiny. Then the FBI could monitor the suspicious ones secretly and learn more about any terrorist operation being planned. What we have now seems likely to drive potential terrorists seeking flight training to facilities outside the US where our government would have little if any means to check up on them.

You mean a solution that would leave potential evildoers in the dark about the workings of their opponent and actually stand a chance of intercepting them before they can do their evil deeds. Where is the fun in that if you can create a new user-fee financed buerocracy instead ?

 

[Areeda]

Just to be clear: I mean a student visa issued for non-aviation purpose. E.g. someone here to get an MBA who is a student in good standing at his school but wants to obtain his ratings in addition. Never been able to get a straight answer from state or USCIS.

The little clip posted is not clear what the problem is. By that I mean what the flight school did wrong. It's pretty clear to me that the lack of guidance on which visas are OK for training and which are not is the big problem.

I don't believe a special student visa for flight training exists so any student visa is OK I hope. I know that a tourist visa is not good enough. I have been able to determine a J1-J2 and H1 are OK to train. It's a real chore to get the TSA, State or USCIS to tell you who to talk to to even answer these questions.

Hopefully the flight school has the proper records, ie. clearance to train from the TSA and photocopies of the passport & visa & person being trained. If they have that and are still getting jammed up, I may not train another non-US citizen.

Joe

 

[gismo]

No, the rules aren't fuzzy on this. It's perfectly fine to receive flight training while being on a student visa.

Most likely, these guys just overstayed beyond their status expiration (visa is irrelevant once in the US).

I don't have any experience with US visas but some or all of the foreign visas I've gotten had a specific time limit after which they were invalid.

 

[Areeda]

I don't have any experience with US visas but some or all of the foreign visas I've gotten had a specific time limit after which they were invalid.

That's true of student visas also. I believe there is also a time limit after graduation or drop out like 2 or 3 weeks before they expire.

Felix may have overstated his comment in saying irrelevant. Certainly no one in California except flight schools even looks at visas.

 

[weilke]

I don't believe a special student visa for flight training exists so any student visa is OK I hope. I know that a tourist visa is not good enough. I have been able to determine a J1-J2 and H1 are OK to train. It's a real chore to get the TSA, State or USCIS to tell you who to talk to to even answer these questions.

That is what I was referring to. USCIS will tell you what visas you can obtain in order to enter the US for the purpose of flight training. Nobody is willing to give you a quotable answer how to go about training if you are already here on F,H,M or J visas. At one point, you were ok if you entered on one of those visas and told the officer that you also wish to undertake flight training, later the border officers started to deny entry to people who indicated just that

 

[SCCutler]

Donald Rumsfeld is giving the president his daily briefing. He concludes by saying: "Yesterday, 3 Brazilian soldiers were killed."

"OH NO!" the President exclaims. "That's terrible!"

His staff sits stunned at this display of emotion, nervously watching as the President sits, head in hands.

Finally, the President looks up and asks, "How many is a brazillion?"


Just couldn't resist.

...did he need a TelePrompTer to help with that?

Just couldn't resist.

I'm shocked, SHOCKED that TSA would clear people who were in this country illegally.

But seriously, one of the following is true.

The students WERE legal aliens when they got their TSA checks done and are no longer legal. - Not TSA's fault unless TSA is supposed to continuously monitor these folks.
The students WERE legal aliens when they got their TSA checks done and still ARE legal aliens - it's possible that the report is wrong.
The students WERE illegal aliens and the checks were not done or forged - bad news for the school
The students WERE illegal aliens and TSA didn't check this status - TSA's fault
The students WERE illegal aliens and TSA checked their status with ICE - and got bad/no data back.


Frankly, I didn't think immigration status was part of the TSA check.

And y'know what?

None of any of that would have made these guys terrorists, either, would it?

 

[Jim Logajan]

Link

Let's try and keep this about aviation instead of politics. Don't want to have to close this or throw it over to Spin Zone.

From the article:

“It’s something that [TSA] approved in the first place,’’ said DeJesus. “Every student that we had went to the TSA, and TSA approved them.’’
Last month, he said, the TSA sent him an e-mail revoking approval for many of the students.

That and other reported aspects seem to indicate TSA screwed up and acted retroactively - and they and/or the FAA may be trying to punish DeJesus for their screw-ups.

 

[weilke]

From the article:

“It’s something that [TSA] approved in the first place,’’ said DeJesus. “Every student that we had went to the TSA, and TSA approved them.’’
Last month, he said, the TSA sent him an e-mail revoking approval for many of the students.

That and other reported aspects seem to indicate TSA screwed up and acted retroactively - and they and/or the FAA may be trying to punish DeJesus for their screw-ups.

FAA has nothing to do with this*.

- TSA performs the background checks at $135/student/rating
- Dept of States job is to determine who is allowed to come into the country (issue visas at the consulates)
- USCIS job is to determine who is allowed to be/remain in the country (approve change of status or extension of status requests)

The three agencies dont routinely talk to each other. If USCIS wants to send a message to DOS, they are using a teletyper, I wish I was kidding.


*outside of the fact that they are going after DeJesus on his maintenance practices.

 

[ApacheBob]

The media put a spin on this or the politicians put a spin on this. As mentioned above, it sounds like an administrative oversight, not some terrorist plot!