Flight school plane with other instructor

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The other thread on CFI pay versus hourly charge made me think of this, but I didn't want to hijack the thread.

Here's the situation:

Private pilot is checked out and rents regularly from Airport/Flight School A. He decides to prepare for his commercial cert, but has an independent CFI that he likes, not affiliated with that flight school. He rents a plane, flies it Airport B to meet and pick up his freelance instructor. He still flies from the left seat, receives and logs commercial instruction, and acts as PIC at all times. Says good bye to his CFI and returns back to the Airport A, pays for the rental and says thanks and see ya.

Any real or ethical rules being broken?
 
If you are a PPL, acting as PIC at all times and have been authorized by the FBO to rent and operate the plane in question and don't do anything that's contrary to your rental agreement (specifically regarding instruction from non-FBO instructors) then seems fine.

In theory they could say something like "simulated IMC permitted only with an X flight school CFI acting as safety pilot" but other than something like that you're just flying a plane as PIC performing maneuvers that allow you to log time towards the instrument cert.
 
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He MIGHT be violating the rental agreement. Around here, he would be, as every rental agreement specifies that instruction may only be given by affiliated instructors.

In the event of an accident (if in violation of the rental agreement), both the renter and the other CFI are likely to be sued after the insurance company says "sorry, no coverage"
 
Not sure the FBO would look on the rental favorably. I would check to see if your instructor had rental insurance. Most rental agreements state ,no instruction to be given,unless using their approved instructors.
 
Well, these are the responses I was sort of expecting.

Sure, they can SAY anything they want in a rental agreement. But how can that be enforced or recognized? Basically I'm picking up my friend and we're going for a plane ride together. I am PIC every second. Now if there was some hood work, or something like that, they'd have every right to dictate who they want in the right seat.

But just because I log instruction I've run afoul of some arbitrary agreement?
 
Unregistered said:
Well, these are the responses I was sort of expecting.

Sure, they can SAY anything they want in a rental agreement. But how can that be enforced or recognized? Basically I'm picking up my friend and we're going for a plane ride together. I am PIC every second. Now if there was some hood work, or something like that, they'd have every right to dictate who they want in the right seat.

But just because I log instruction I've run afoul of some arbitrary agreement?
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Well to get really technical you'd need to check both the rental agreement and the operator's insurance certificate (which they should be happy to provide you with a copy of upon request). The insurance certificate could likely specify that coverage is provided only for rentals made in accordance with the rental agreement. Violate the rental agreement and coverage is void.

Without those details it's impossible to say for sure if it's 'OK' or not.

But at the end of the day their plane and their rules. Don't like the rules, rent from somewhere else.
 
Since your posting as unregistered,one would assume ,that you think it's wrong. Everything is fine untill there is an incident.
 
I don't personally think it's wrong, but realistically, I can't imagine going up to the desk, saying, I'd like to rent the 172 because I'm going to pick up my CFI friend over at XXX for a lesson.

More of a just wondering kind of thing.
 
Unregistered said:
Well, these are the responses I was sort of expecting.

Sure, they can SAY anything they want in a rental agreement. But how can that be enforced or recognized? Basically I'm picking up my friend and we're going for a plane ride together. I am PIC every second. Now if there was some hood work, or something like that, they'd have every right to dictate who they want in the right seat.

But just because I log instruction I've run afoul of some arbitrary agreement?
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I run a rental company and it is indeed against the rental agreement I have people sign. If I find out someone is breaking that rental agreement they will absolutely never rent my aircraft ever again.

Also if anything happens during the training with the other instructor the insurance company will make quite the legal headache for both of you.

Insurance has to approve every instructor that gives flight training in the airplane. Max 4 instructors on our policy.
 
Nothing in the FAA regs says you can't.

Worse case you tick the FBO off.
 
Here's why it's frustrating to the rental school. They likely are doing the aircraft as a break-even deal or slightly profitable. If they have an instructor that they want flying the aircraft and you take it to some other instructor who doesn't have an airplane, their instructor is unable to use it to make money, which doesn't help the profitability of the operation. The insurance is usually the other factor. When I had an airplane, if it had an accident while it wasn't under a PIC that was checked out by me or someone else, it wasn't covered. Just because your renter pilot is OK to be PIC when he takes the aircraft out, doesn't mean the FAA and the insurance company won't decide that the CFI giving the instruction in the aircraft isn't the REAL PIC, especially if instruction is being given.
 
I'm aware of someone in our area who did this and got caught at it without any accident. The FBO would no longer rent to him. Neither would anybody else. I mean no FBO at any of the airports in the region would take his business.

Aviation's a very small world - if you behave badly word spreads quickly.
 
i flew out of two different FBOs and used a 3rd party CFI. Guess they didn't care cause both places knew. I think they were happy about renting the plane out.... So just ask.
 
We have to take specific action against those who violate the club rules or we risk losing our coverage under the breach of warranty rider.
 
Yea as far as i know there is no reg against this, however you may violate your FBO rental agreement.
 
There is nothing stopping you from riding with a friend, who happens to be a CFI, and he happens to give you some instruction during the trip. If it is a one time thing, probably nothing will come of it. However, in the event of an accident with the same CFI on board, the FBO examines your logbook and finds out that you have been logging dual time for quite some time with that same CFI, they will most likely sue you for damages.
 
Some R-22 operations would not rent to CFI-Hs for any reason. Afraid of bandit instruction. See if they will put your buddy on the insurance or find another rental that will.
 
sarangan said:
There is nothing stopping you from riding with a friend, who happens to be a CFI, and he happens to give you some instruction during the trip. If it is a one time thing, probably nothing will come of it. However, in the event of an accident with the same CFI on board, the FBO examines your logbook and finds out that you have been logging dual time for quite some time with that same CFI, they will most likely sue you for damages.
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Why is everyone trying to be so tricky dicky with this? Ask your 3rd Party CFI to call them and see if they can instruct a 'friend' in the plane. In my case both FBOs actually used my CFI for some discovery flights and a few fill in lessons. So it's a win/win, the plane gets rented out and the CFI gets a few more jobs. Truth be told I did also use one of their CFIs for stage checks and spin training and some other fun stuff.
 
sarangan said:
There is nothing stopping you from riding with a friend, who happens to be a CFI, and he happens to give you some instruction during the trip. If it is a one time thing, probably nothing will come of it. However, in the event of an accident with the same CFI on board, the FBO examines your logbook and finds out that you have been logging dual time for quite some time with that same CFI, they will most likely sue you for damages.
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The FBO doesn't have authority to "examine" a logbook. The only information that needs to be provided is proof of BFRs, endorsements, and/or time in type for insurance purposes. I have nothing to hide, but I'd not be handing my logbook over to them for examination.

In reality, there is no FAA reg broken by doing this. As long as the aircraft is subject to 100hr inspections and has up-to-date IFR checks, the only thing that can happen is the FBO gets mad and says they won't let you rent from them anymore. Highly unlikely that they could sue for "damages" unless they can prove that they have turned away instruction due to lack of available rental aircraft. Even then, they would likely only be able to ask for whatever their profit margin is on instruction given, which is unlikely to be enough to bother going to court over.

Now, in the event of an accident involving insurance claims, the language of the insurance agreement would certainly come into play. So, I'd hope the pilot has non-owner's insurance and the CFI keeps his own as well.
 
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SoonerAviator said:
The FBO doesn't have authority to "examine" a logbook. The only information that needs to be provided is proof of BFRs, endorsements, and/or time in type for insurance purposes. I have nothing to hide, but I'd not be handing my logbook over to them for examination.

In reality, there is no FAA reg broken by doing this. As long as the aircraft is subject to 100hr inspections and has up-to-date IFR checks, the only thing that can happen is the FBO gets mad and says they won't let you rent from them anymore. Highly unlikely that they could sue for "damages" unless they can prove that they have turned away instruction due to lack of available rental aircraft. Even then, they would likely only be able to ask for whatever their profit margin is on instruction given, which is unlikely to be enough to bother going to court over.
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It's their airplane, not a public item. Insurance IS a real issue. If you were unwilling to let someone look at your logbook in order to rent, that'd be pretty much a reason to not rent to you.
 
Unregistered said:
Well, these are the responses I was sort of expecting.

Sure, they can SAY anything they want in a rental agreement. But how can that be enforced or recognized? Basically I'm picking up my friend and we're going for a plane ride together. I am PIC every second. Now if there was some hood work, or something like that, they'd have every right to dictate who they want in the right seat.

But just because I log instruction I've run afoul of some arbitrary agreement?
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Let's be straight - it's some arbitrary agreement you agreed to about who the owner/operator of the airplane will let use their property and under what terms. Awful, huh? How dare they!

Actually, it's not some arbitrary agreement. It's based on the same set of policies that has FBOs limit the use of aircraft to their members. Some control over who has access to their aircraft, need to maintain controls for insurance purposes, concerns over picking up liability for actions of others they have no relationship with, to name just a few.

Enforced? Barring you from further use of their aircraft. If there's any aircraft damage, having a nice easy claim against both of you without having to prove carelessness?

But, your comment and anonymity makes it sound a bit like you don't care about any of that. So why ask?
 
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OkieAviator said:
Why is everyone trying to be so tricky dicky with this? Ask your 3rd Party CFI to call them and see if they can instruct a 'friend' in the plane. In my case both FBOs actually used my CFI for some discovery flights and a few fill in lessons. So it's a win/win, the plane gets rented out and the CFI gets a few more jobs. Truth be told I did also use one of their CFIs for stage checks and spin training and some other fun stuff.
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Sounds obvious, huh? My guess it he already asked and the FBO said, "sorry, no."
 
Wonder if this CFI is a known quantity? Could be the FBO just doesn't want to bother adding another CFI to the rolls or could be they don't want that guy instructing in their planes.
 
RyanShort1 said:
It's their airplane, not a public item. Insurance IS a real issue. If you were unwilling to let someone look at your logbook in order to rent, that'd be pretty much a reason to not rent to you.
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Again, it's not their "right" to do so, but its just the same as their "right" not to rent to you if you refuse. My point was simply that if an FBO I was established with wanted to randomly examine my logbook, I would tell them to pound sand. Want a copy of the BFR entry? Sure. Want to see my current medical? Absolutely. Want to cross-examine every entry in my book? I think not.

I will happily make copied of entries that show I meet whatever insurance minimums they require. I will not submit my logbook over to an FBO so that they can look for evidence, nor should anyone else.
 
SoonerAviator said:
Again, it's not their "right" to do so, but its just the same as their "right" not to rent to you if you refuse. My point was simply that if an FBO I was established with wanted to randomly examine my logbook, I would tell them to pound sand. Want a copy of the BFR entry? Sure. Want to see my current medical? Absolutely. Want to cross-examine every entry in my book? I think not.

I will happily make copied of entries that show I meet whatever insurance minimums they require. I will not submit my logbook over to an FBO so that they can look for evidence, nor should anyone else.
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In reality, with the FBOs I've rented from through the years (10? 20?) I have found the very reasonable in what they have requested to see.
 
midlifeflyer said:
In reality, with the FBOs I've rented from through the years (10? 20?) I have found the very reasonable in what they have requested to see.
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I agree. I have never had a problem with any request from the FBOs I've rented from. However, if one asked to view my logbook for a general review, I'd probably tell them 'no'. It's no different than being ramp checked by an FAA inspector. They can request to see your logbook, but you don't have to provide it at that time.
 
SoonerAviator said:
Again, it's not their "right" to do so, but its just the same as their "right" not to rent to you if you refuse. My point was simply that if an FBO I was established with wanted to randomly examine my logbook, I would tell them to pound sand. Want a copy of the BFR entry? Sure. Want to see my current medical? Absolutely. Want to cross-examine every entry in my book? I think not.

I will happily make copied of entries that show I meet whatever insurance minimums they require. I will not submit my logbook over to an FBO so that they can look for evidence, nor should anyone else.
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If you are renting from the FBO they presume you are PIC. If you are under "instruction" you are probably NOT the PIC. That's why sneaking around their back isn't cool.
 
RyanShort1 said:
If you are renting from the FBO they presume you are PIC. If you are under "instruction" you are probably NOT the PIC. That's why sneaking around their back isn't cool.
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I don't think you understand what PIC is, then. Guess who gets to log PIC while under instuction for the IR . . . the "student". The only things required to log PIC is to be the sole manipulator of the controls and to be rated in the category/class of the aircraft. The pilot has to be meeting the second condition in order for the FBO to rent it to him, and unless he learns really well by watching the instructor fly the approaches the whole time, he will be manipulating the controls as well.
 
SoonerAviator said:
I don't think you understand what PIC is, then. Guess who gets to log PIC while under instuction for the IR . . . the "student". The only things required to log PIC is to be the sole manipulator of the controls and to be rated in the category/class of the aircraft.
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Can you log that as "sole manipulator"? Sure. Can you do that solo, nope! As an instructor, I would presume based on all of my interactions with the FAA and with insurance that the IP would end up being the final authority, and would take the blame for a mid-air, for instance. The IP is responsible for the safety of the flight while the student is under the hood.
 
This is a frequent situation at rental outfits who have twins. Two pilots want to split time in the twin. Both pilots may be checked out by the operator to rent the aircraft. Turns out one pilot has a CFI, but not an employee of the operation. The CFI could act as safety pilot for the other pilot flying under the hood, or he could log it as instruction given (provided he has sufficient time in make and model). Flying as safety pilot is generally fine, but providing instruction generally is not.

My guess is it happens more than folks realize, and unless there's an incident, or the business reviews the pilot logbooks, it goes on under the radar. It's certainly not an FAA issue, and since there's no evidence of who's who until after the flight is completed, the chances of getting caught by the rental outfit are slim.
 
RyanShort1 said:
Can you log that as "sole manipulator"? Sure. Can you do that solo, nope! As an instructor, I would presume based on all of my interactions with the FAA and with insurance that the IP would end up being the final authority, and would take the blame for a mid-air, for instance. The IP is responsible for the safety of the flight while the student is under the hood.
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Agreed, but that doesn't mean that the OP isn't considered PIC at the time of rental. Plenty of FAA literature on the subject. This whole discussion is mostly circle-jerk, anyhow. The OP doesn't appear to have done this, and doesn't appear to have asked the FBO if they would allow it. We're really arguing about the possible legal implications of an accident investigation by an insurance company for an event that hasn't occurred.

Mostly, this comes down to a discussion on ethics. Is it ethical? Probably not. Would he likely get caught? No. Are there any legal ramifications if an accident was to occur while under instruction? Yes, substantial.
 
OP here

Yeah, I did it. While I couldn't define why it was wrong, it certainly didn't feel on the up and up. I figured it was better to ask forgiveness than permission.

This was a number of years ago. If I were in the same situation now, I wouldn't make the same decision.

I guess my question was more of an academic exercise in, I know it's probably wrong, but why exactly?
 
RyanShort1 said:
Can you log that as "sole manipulator"? Sure. Can you do that solo, nope! As an instructor, I would presume based on all of my interactions with the FAA and with insurance that the IP would end up being the final authority, and would take the blame for a mid-air, for instance. The IP is responsible for the safety of the flight while the student is under the hood.
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Assuming a properly rated pilot who meet applicable currency requirements and a CFI who is also a properly rated pilot who meet applicable currency requirements, either can be the pilot in command of the flight. Happens all the time in owned aircraft and there is no regulatory reason why it can't happen in the rental situation.

Who would take the blame for that mid-air is a completely separate question since, as I explained to a potential student, an instructor can be expected to be held to an instructor level of responsibility on an instructional flight (which the FAA views as equivalent to PIC responsibility), and besides, ...oh...it's in my signature block ;)
 
Unregistered said:
OP here

Yeah, I did it. While I couldn't define why it was wrong, it certainly didn't feel on the up and up. I figured it was better to ask forgiveness than permission.

This was a number of years ago. If I were in the same situation now, I wouldn't make the same decision.

I guess my question was more of an academic exercise in, I know it's probably wrong, but why exactly?
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Because, to put it very simply, it's their airplane and they have the right to decide who flies it, who instructs in it and who they are willing to assume the risk of causing damage to it or exposing them to liability. And, on top of that, you agreed to those terms.

Just as you do with your car. You lend your car to a friend to go pick up his mom from the hospital. That's the deal. Pick up his mom from the hospital and bring her home. But while he has it, he decides, what the heck, so long as I have the car, I'll bring it to the stock car drag races.

Regardless of any damage, is your friend right in doing that without your permission just because you let him borrow your car?
 
Unregistered said:
I guess my question was more of an academic exercise in, I know it's probably wrong, but why exactly?
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Because it's not your airplane.

You use it how the owner wants, or you don't use it.

For a flight school with leasebacks, the owner has made the decision to use that flight school, and you must respect that.
 
Unregistered said:
OP here . . . I guess my question was more of an academic exercise in, I know it's probably wrong, but why exactly?
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Again, it's only wrong if it violated the FBO rental agreement that you not use outside instruction. It's like if you rented a car and then let your friend drive it. It's a willful breach of contract, but unless an accident were to occur it's not likely that anyone would ever know.
 
My rental insurance policy is only valid for instruction with instructors the insurance company has approved. Period.

Rent our aircraft, use another instructor, smash it up, and you will be sued. I will win. And nobody in the state is ever going to rent you another airplane.

These things aren't cheap and our margins are incredibly thin. Most pilots rent a few hours a year. Its a pretty easy business decision to ban one from renting our airplane if you violate our rental agreement. If that happens the only other rental operation won't be renting an airplane to you again either.

When there is someone doing bad things with rentals I assure you the news spreads quickly.

If you don't like the terms of the rental ageement find another company with more agreeable terms or buy your own airplane. That's really the only ethical and proper course of action.
 
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just ask the flight school to onboard the cfi. You keep renting and they can make some money out of the cfi. Otherwise, go to another place or buy a plane for yourself.
 
jesse said:
My rental insurance policy is only valid for instruction with instructors the insurance company has approved. Period.

Rent our aircraft, use another instructor, smash it up, and you will be sued. I will win. And nobody in the state is ever going to rent you another airplane.
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I think you're reaching a wee bit there.
 
James331 said:
I think you're reaching a wee bit there.
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Not in my area. There aren't exactly a lot of people renting airplanes out. As to the insurance portion that's quite clear in the policy.

I want to provide as much freedom and flexibility to rental pilots as possible and have an incredibly fair rental agreement with very few things restricted. Not much I can do about the insurance side.
 
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