I agree, but I'm not relying on a flight review to keep me above average, and frankly, I doubt it's making anyone that doesn't want to be above average become above average due to it's existence.
Flight Review more than 2 hours
- Thread starter brien23
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RyanShort1
Final Approach
If you aren't trying to pinch the CFI, here's a different perspective. If you're going to do 1 hour of ground and 1 hour of flight (minimum) you are basically asking for 2.5 hours minimum of the instructor's time. If it takes exactly 1 hour of ground, and 1 hour of flying, you still need to figure in a minimum 5 minute preflight, postflight, and hopefully 5-10 minutes of debriefing, IF you are perfect. Realistically, the CFI needs to block off 3 hours of his or her schedule for you, so you shouldn't be afraid to utilize that much time. I tell all my FR candidates to block off 3 hours minimum and brush up on the regs beforehand and if we get done faster, great. Because I'm a part-timer, with a real job, I charge by the block. If you schedule me to reserve three hours of my work, It'll be a three-hour charge, but I'll often not charge extra if we go over and I'm free after the scheduled time.
I usually work scenarios during the ground portion to try and make sure they don't just regurgitate the regs, but can usefully apply them, and this can take a tad more time, but usually 1 hours is close to adequate for ground for those who have done their homework. Guys that don't do their homework 100% of the time need more time.
I usually work scenarios during the ground portion to try and make sure they don't just regurgitate the regs, but can usefully apply them, and this can take a tad more time, but usually 1 hours is close to adequate for ground for those who have done their homework. Guys that don't do their homework 100% of the time need more time.
The definitely should vary. I fly regularly, but rarely VFR. I've had a CFI that fully understood that. I was upfront and honest about it.
We went over some new things, did the flying and were done. I don't go out and do steep turns and stalls, but I can do them. I typically fly IFR and stay away from the edges of the envelope.
Someone that flies only 30 hours a year would mostly likely need more air time. Someone with a long break in flying might need more than one session.
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We went over some new things, did the flying and were done. I don't go out and do steep turns and stalls, but I can do them. I typically fly IFR and stay away from the edges of the envelope.
Someone that flies only 30 hours a year would mostly likely need more air time. Someone with a long break in flying might need more than one session.
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brien23
Cleared for Takeoff
I was a CFI when the FAA first started the BFR later to be FR , many pilots had some strange ideas of the regulations and basic flying ability and what they could do and what they could not. Nothing says it better than " You don't know what you don't know" does the FR help, YES and it's up to the CFI to make it work for you, not them.
GaryM
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Is a decent 5 minute preflight possible? I admit, I'm far from perfect, and only have a couple hundred hours of flight time, but I figure engine start is usually about 30 minutes after I get to the plane, assuming no need to call for fuel or preheat.
RyanShort1
Final Approach
If it's a pilot that owns their own plane, they spend their own time to do the pre-flight before meeting up and I just need to check my necessary points, it's one thing. Even then, I consider watching the pre-flight a good thing to see if they are skipping anything important, or if they are at least paying lip-service to being thorough. Most of the time, yes, it's really more like 15-20 minutes on average, and we often go over a plan for the flight as well. That's why it's not very fair (IMO, ridiculous) to a CFI to try and force them to squeeze the whole thing into two hours for the minimum 1 hour of flight and 1 hour of "ground review of Part 91." That would be a glaring mis-application of 91.103, which we are supposed to have just reviewed.
RyanShort1
Final Approach
I fly 2-3 times a week minimum in a slow week and KNOW I make mistakes from time to time. It helps when you always fly as a crew of two. If you don't fly but twice a month, you don't know how sloppy you probably are, even if you are "good."
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
Regulation: You must be able to not kill yourself in an airplane.I agree, but I'm not relying on a flight review to keep me above average, and frankly, I doubt it's making anyone that doesn't want to be above average become above average due to it's existence.
Response from some pilots: YOU CAN’T MAKE ME!!!
not pointing a finger at you, @Salty ...just showing why you’re right.
Ed Haywood
En-Route
Over 30 years of flying, yep, plenty of times. I love to fly, and I only fly with CFI's who A) also love to fly, and B) are older and more experienced than me. No 22 year old epaulet-wearing time builders, thanks. When the CFI is done putting me through my paces, I usually think of a few extra things to practice. Sometimes I find a new aircraft and combine a BFR with a checkout.
The notion of a CFI "taking advantage of you" for an extra half hour is laughable. Hey Mr High Roller CFI, don't spend that extra 20 bucks all in one place!
tsts4
Pattern Altitude
Had my flight review this morning. 1.2 on the Hobbs, plus roughly 1.5 on the oral (mainly because we were both embellishing each topic with war stories). I looked back through my logbook and that’s been about avg over the years. I’ve never said anything about the time required for a review, it just has worked out that way on it’s own. Until this thread I’ve also never given it any thought.
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danhagan
En-Route
Could be worse, you could spend FOUR hours on a flight review and the CFI had so much fun you nearly had to INJURE him to accept payment
Flight review, plus unusual attitudes, stalls, spins and light aerobatics with a TON of ground over the usual 1 hour ground stuff plus another 2 for the aerobatic stuff than a little over an hour in the Pitts hangin' upside down. He competed in aerobatic competitions ... this was a TON of info, how to recover all kinds of crazy sitiations, and when he said, "Close your eyes and get ready to recover THIS" you knew it was going to be something exciting ... image below was my first aileron roll. My first spin recovery he laughed as I converted it from a left to a right spin over correcting (those Pitts are very agile).
Flight review, plus unusual attitudes, stalls, spins and light aerobatics with a TON of ground over the usual 1 hour ground stuff plus another 2 for the aerobatic stuff than a little over an hour in the Pitts hangin' upside down. He competed in aerobatic competitions ... this was a TON of info, how to recover all kinds of crazy sitiations, and when he said, "Close your eyes and get ready to recover THIS" you knew it was going to be something exciting ... image below was my first aileron roll. My first spin recovery he laughed as I converted it from a left to a right spin over correcting
(those Pitts are very agile).
AeroLudite
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As a CFI I’ve always been more subtle about dealing with the individual who expects and verbalizes a desire for a 1 & 1 flight review.
As we use the “discovery” flight to “sell” aviation and flight training, I use the flight review to rejuvenate the interest in and the pure joy of flying.
By making it FUN!
Turn the review into a pursuit of the $100 hamburger or buffet, and throw in some ATC communication, grass strip take off and landing, and an instrument approach or two. Not the drudgery of repeating the “check ride” with slow flight, stalls, and constant critique...droning around the pattern
One such “review” turned into an instrument rating, m/e rating and commercial ticket...started out as a flight review, with a lunch at a fly-in grill and restaurant. Latest was a 30yr hiatus looking to get current has resulted in an instrument rating, and he’s decided to become a crop-duster as his retirement “hobby job”, doing what he wanted to do out of high school 40yrs ago... has a date to start and deposit made at Bainbridge.
there’s more than one way to skin a cat...
As we use the “discovery” flight to “sell” aviation and flight training, I use the flight review to rejuvenate the interest in and the pure joy of flying.
By making it FUN!
Turn the review into a pursuit of the $100 hamburger or buffet, and throw in some ATC communication, grass strip take off and landing, and an instrument approach or two. Not the drudgery of repeating the “check ride” with slow flight, stalls, and constant critique...droning around the pattern
One such “review” turned into an instrument rating, m/e rating and commercial ticket...started out as a flight review, with a lunch at a fly-in grill and restaurant. Latest was a 30yr hiatus looking to get current has resulted in an instrument rating, and he’s decided to become a crop-duster as his retirement “hobby job”, doing what he wanted to do out of high school 40yrs ago... has a date to start and deposit made at Bainbridge.
there’s more than one way to skin a cat...
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
I used to fly charter with somebody who would do that. The same trip that everybody else did in 1.8-2.0 hours, she did in 2.5-2.6 consistently.
It’s funny that pro pilots flying 500 plus hours a year are required to have check rides every six months and annual recurrent training, yet weekend warriors flying 20 hours a year scoff at needing two hours of training every two years.
gotta remember, some of the 20 hours a year pilots never leave the patterns at their home airport. Sometimes they go crazy and go 20 or 30 miles for a breakfast flight.
schmookeeg
En-Route
I can't think of any I've undertaken that were only 1 and 1. If I'm not learning/demonstrating anything at any time, be it 0.1 or 3.1, I'm querying the CFI about what's up next. Who just sits in some hateful rental cessna at $200+/hr and gathers all of the fascinating life lessons doled out by the 21 year old wonder instructor?
Tarheelpilot
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Check your PM please.
WillFly4Food
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I’ve actually come to looking forward to my flight reviews. I basically tell the CFI that I want to be challenged, and I usually learn a thing or two, or at the very least just have fun.
chemgeek
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Isn't the idea to determine if a pilot is still competent on a very basic level to continue to exercise pilot privileges? So it takes what is takes to demonstrate basic competence with both aeronautical knowledge and designated flight skills. I usually try to do something fun during a FR, like maybe some short field grass strip work, or combine and IPC with a FR for a real workout day. I usually learn something new and useful each time. At least with my CFIs, the flight review or IPC is usually fixed cost when I fly in my plane, so it's no skin off my nose if it takes 1 hour or 2 hours in the air. We spend ground time as needed to ensure I'm still fresh with the FARs and other knowledge requirements. If you stay current, the ground instruction doesn't have to exceed the minimums. Late winter IPCs are where the most rust shows, as that is often a poor time for getting regular hours in frozen NY state.
I don’t mind a little extra time in the flight portion, after all your flying. For the ground I do the flight review course on line before getting with the instructor.
guzziguy
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Trust me, It DOES happen. It might be rare, but we need to be careful to avoid these jokers.
First and only time I encountered this was in Oregon.
I scheduled a BFR with a local "CFI" in the Portland area. Upon arriving, it was very obvious at the outset during the ground portion that he did NOT know or understand the regs or had a plan at all on what to go over. Just random conversation and small talk.
Personally, I consider a BFR an opportunity for ME to ask questions ALSO to clarify items for my own understanding.
"You know, I've always wondered about...Can you explain this to me please?"
His answer, multiple times was, "What do YOU think?"
How do YOU spot a ********ter?
Next was the flying portion:
It was a dumpster fire of a flight. He had no plan or idea of what he wanted to go over and instead just had me flying randomly. No steep turns, no stalls, nothing.
Then he decides, "let's go to Salem for lunch."
WTF?
On the approach, my radio and transponder started acting up. If I remember correctly, he, at the last minute, said, "let's do a touch and go."
Uhh, ok.
Then this happened:
My radio, transponder, and all other electrics died on climb out after the TnG. I later learned it was my alternator. As PIC and not knowing what the issue was, I decided to stay in the pattern (nordo) and was looking for light gun signals for when the tower would realize I wasn't departing and instead joining the DW. (and trying to remember: "Am I looking for a solid or flashing green light?")
As we were in an actual (potential) emergency situation, I quickly discovered this "CFI" was less than useless to provide assistance or insight on what might be happening.
We joined the DW and asked him if he had the salem tower in his phone (he did!). I told him to use his cell phone to call the tower while we were in the DW and we landed uneventfully.
Turned out it was the alternator that went TU some time before and the battery had finally exhausted all its juice. OK, no emergency per se. Nice to know.
After all this and personally witnessing my calm attitude (truly I was) and working the issue and getting us down safely, this guy had the nuts to say that he wasn't convinced of my skills and he wanted to do one more hour ("just one more hour, I promise").
Are you ****ting me?
I remained non-committal at that point and called my mechanic (cross thread from pilots v mechs thread?) who came and picked us up (we are good friends).
Guess what?!
Turns out my mech KNEW this particular "CFI" and had banned him from ever using his plane (mech is also a pilot) ever again. Turned out the mech had allowed this "CFI" to use his plane for fun but he ended up finding out that he was using his plane to give 'instruction' and charge for it without telling him and after the mech had specifically forbade it (he had also flown the plane at night which was also specifically forbidden).
THEN, telling this story to my hangar neighbor, I discovered that my hangar neighbor used him as a CFII to get his IR. He had already spent an ungodly amount of money with this guy and had made no progress at all. This "CFI" kept NO RECORDS of the training that he had done and my friend had been with him for almost 6 months with nothing to show for it.
This same friend then told me the story that a ground pounder at a local airport ALSO used this "CFI" to get his PPL but never even soloed. The groundpounder told my hangar neighbor that that particular "CFI" had NEVER sent ANYONE to a check ride....ever.
milk milk milk milk
In fact, this "CFI" on several occasions asked my hangar neighbor to drop him off at his next lesson by plane.
Once we had successfully dumped this guy, my friend and I suspected that he was not a "CFI" at all, or at the very least maybe USED TO BE but was no longer certified/licensed. We played with the idea of reporting him to the FSDO to voice our suspicions but never ended up following through.
Some have admonished me for 'testing' my CFIs before I hire them.
Once bitten, twice shy I say.
Those snakes ARE out there. Watch where you step.
ksandrew
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The worst BFR I ever had was a number years ago, caught in a tight and could not get the usual CFIs, found this fellow out of town who agreed to do it straight away.
The first thing he had me do was call flight service for weather and winds aloft. then use his E6B to plan the flight, he would not let me use the ipad. I have commercial, IR since 1974 and a few thousand hours. I went along with it just needing a signature. During the flight he kept insisting that I was off course. I pointed out the magenta line on the MX20 and explained that the little airplane on the line was us. His reply was that he did not believe in these new fangled things. I got my BFR signed off and I have never seen him since. I often wonder if he really had his CFI.
Life is a barrel of fun.
Ken Andrew
The first thing he had me do was call flight service for weather and winds aloft. then use his E6B to plan the flight, he would not let me use the ipad. I have commercial, IR since 1974 and a few thousand hours. I went along with it just needing a signature. During the flight he kept insisting that I was off course. I pointed out the magenta line on the MX20 and explained that the little airplane on the line was us. His reply was that he did not believe in these new fangled things. I got my BFR signed off and I have never seen him since. I often wonder if he really had his CFI.
Life is a barrel of fun.
Ken Andrew
Clip4
Touchdown! Greaser!
If you believe an hour flight review to too much, check out the Wings proficiency program.
rustypilot2021
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Hello all, I'm curious to get your feedback. I haven't flown in about 3-4 years, and started going back up with a CFI. Did the procedures on the first flight, but my landings royally sucked. I also forgot a lot of things. So far, in about 12 hours, and I'm not getting much feedback to get the BFR endorsement. I'm considering just foregoing it and starting Instrument training and that way I can pass the checkride and be back current. Just annoying b/c I'm not getting any feedback and don't like having a plan of action for my learning.
Have you told your instructor this?
rustypilot2021
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Great question. No, and I will next time we're face to face. I tried to do it the last time, but he told me he was very "tired" from his all day flying - I recommended we cancel in case he's tired (IMSAFE). In the pattern, he wanted to take a break b/c he hadn't eaten since breakfast. We met in the evening time. I'm just going with my gut that I may need to plan for worst and just get a CFI to help me through my WINGS flights. I am grateful to get back into the airplane and get some practice, but my first goal was to get my BFR done and get current, and I wanted to instrument training at a proper school full-time in a few weeks vs. casually with a CFI. Thx in advance!
Good question. That discussion needs to take place. There's no excuse for lack of feed back and no plan of action with a goal. That can be on both the student and the instructor. I've been dealing with self-described rusty pilots this past year and find myself telling the pilot to let me know when they think they are ready for that flight review or IPC. That self-assessment is an important part of pilot judgment.
^^^ This. Whenever possible I plan mine as a $100 burger at a place I've never been before. It's fun, real-world, and there is always something new. I try to do this once in the spring and once in the fall, and ask the CFI to sign off on a FR and IPC if I'm worthy.
Of course it takes all day, but it's more like fun than a test. Of course I only choose CFI who are good folks and are not jerks.
I do this because I think it is fun and makes me a better pilot. It works for me. That said, I think the FAA mandate probably does more harm than good creating more checkboxes to fill. The Government doesn't need to mandate what works for me or anyone else as a new "minimum" standard.
sarangan
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For pilots I have flown with many times from my club, I can do a review within the minimum times. But someone new will take longer.
Having said that, it is usually easy to tell within the first 10 minutes how things are going to go.
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penaltyvectors
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Since you don't really specify - do you personally think you're ready for a signoff? You say your landings sucked - do they still suck, or are you now performing every maneuver up to PPL standards? If so, then I personally would have had a frank conversation with the CFI much earlier to find out what he was looking for. You need to be an active participant in your training, especially as a post-PPL student, and it's possible that the CFI is waiting for you to express that you feel comfortable before he sends you off on your own. If you're not performing up to PPL standards after 12 hours with only 3-4 years off, then something is wrong. I've known a few people who took 20+ years off of GA flying entirely, and most of them were able to get back to competence in 5-6 flight hours. Of course, that assumes that you're doing a good amount of book work on your own - if the CFI is having to remind you of the requirements to enter Class C while in the plane, then that's on you. As others have said, the only real way forward is to have a frank discussion with the CFI, but after 12 hours, I think my next flight with him would either result in my completed BFR or me firing him and finding a different CFI.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
This…
not to say that an instructor who’s too tired to do his job properly isn’t at fault, but this should really be a self-guided tour of the ACS.
rustypilot2021
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Great feedback, and do appreciate all the advice from everyone so far! Yes, I do think I'm ready for a sign-off. Initially, they did suck. Now, it's back and smooth as silk. I can also perform the maneuvers to PPL standards. I will go ahead and plan to have the conversation with him.
I have an alternate plan to simply go through the Wings basic flight tests (I believe there are 3 flights per the syllabus), and I have a flight school down in FL that I've already spoken to that would go through it with me. As long as I meet the standards, they will sign me off.
One reason I'm eager to get through this and get certified is b/c I am planning on buying my own first plane soon, and then using that for IFR training. I know I could just go ahead and do that and then once I pass IFR, I can get the BFR endorsement automatically. But, I just prefer to get BFR endorsement so I am also free to fly on my own for my own practice.
I digress - I will have the talk. Thanks very much!
crash7
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Passing IFR checkride would indeed reset the 24 month clock. However, if you’re not current to act as PIC during the ride, the DPE would have to be. I understand they are discouraged from doing so.
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3G
Umm, that’s not exactly how it works, words mean things. See 14CFR 61.56 (c) and (d)
rustypilot2021
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Got it, so basically regardless I have to have the BFR endorsement no matter what to be PIC. Am I reading the words correctly and/or the right meaning of the words?
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
A new rating resets the flight review clock. You'll be able to act as PIC for 24 calendar months after your IFR check ride. (yes, yes, someone will chime in that maybe he didn't do 3 landings on his check ride, and he won't be able to take passengers, blah blah blah)
rustypilot2021
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That's what I first interpreted, but @TCABM person stated "Umm, that’s not exactly how it works, words mean things." He seems kind of smart b/c of his play on words and how they mean things, so I want to be sure the interpretation is truly correct. FAA needs to spell this ****t out better and make it black and white.
RussR
En-Route
I'm reasonably sure that what he meant was that your statement "once I pass IFR, I can get the BFR endorsement automatically" isn't technically accurate. Yes, the checkride counts as a Flight Review. But no, when you pass the checkride, you don't actually get a Flight Review endorsement at the end. The examiner is not going to sign you off for a Flight Review. The checkride just "counts" as one.
Accurate, and possible since the IFR checkride usually only involves one takeoff and landing, but I wonder how often this situation actually happens? Especially since that would mean the applicant didn't takeoff or land the plane at all during the required 3 hours of instruction in the last two calendar months prior to the checkride.
rustypilot2021
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Ahh ok, yeah I didn't mean to say that the "DPE will put his signature on the BFR endorsement" when I said "automatically". I meant to say what you said, which is once you pass a new rating it resets the clock to keep everything legal.