Flight plans?

T

ted gilbertson

Guest
I seems with all the cut backs filing a flight plane isn't very reliable. THe last two times I used the service I had bad luck. One of the times I waited on hold with two cell phones for 45 minutes to close my plan !:mad3:(SERIOUSLY) when I called flight service on the radio on the way home to open my new plan I spoke with a very angry man that said I never closed the last one. The last time I used the service when I got home I found out that the flight plan was never opened. Don't they know how inportant it is to pilots to make sure the plan is opened and closed?
I have now started telling my wife where I am going,time in route, direction of flight and if the don't hear from me by a certain time start making calls,I didn't make it. What does everyone think? Is this a smart way to do things or should I go back to the failed system that was beaten into me during my original training?
 
There were quite a few problems when FSS switched from the US govt. to Lockheed-Martin, but I have to say I've had no problems in a long time. I've gotten through quickly both on the phone and the radio. I file a flight plan on practically every flight, but then I live in a place where no-one will see you crash.

Your back-up system is a good idea in any event. Definitely let someone know where you're going, because even a great FSS system can't be 100% perfect.

Jon
 
ted gilbertson said:
I seems with all the cut backs filing a flight plane isn't very reliable. THe last two times I used the service I had bad luck. One of the times I waited on hold with two cell phones for 45 minutes to close my plan !:mad3:(SERIOUSLY) when I called flight service on the radio on the way home to open my new plan I spoke with a very angry man that said I never closed the last one. The last time I used the service when I got home I found out that the flight plan was never opened. Don't they know how inportant it is to pilots to make sure the plan is opened and closed?
I have now started telling my wife where I am going,time in route, direction of flight and if the don't hear from me by a certain time start making calls,I didn't make it. What does everyone think? Is this a smart way to do things or should I go back to the failed system that was beaten into me during my original training?
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I had the old govt. FSS lose my flight plan by switching it with someone else, then ***** at me because it wasn't closed on time. Always have a private back-up plan with somebody reliable is my view on it.
 
I've had LockMar FSS start looking for me 30 minutes before the flight plan time expired. They started by calling the Flight School I rent from. When I walked in the door I was told that FSS needed me to call, they were looking for me. When I called and asked what they needed, they needed me to close my flight plan. I said ok, I'm on the ground so close it.

When I asked why they started looking for me 30 minutes before the time expired. He said it was "company policy". New one on me.

I have also had flight plans lost, filed electronically with DUATS and they never make it to the IFR system. I've also had them ready and waiting when I called ATC. My standard is an enroute fix between LAS and the LAX valley, easier to get out of LAS and easier to pick up the IFR into the valley.
 
I have filed a total of one VFR flight plan in my life, and that was because my instructor made me when I was doing training for my private. I had no problems.

The IFR flight plans I've filed I generally don't have problems with.

I understand that in some places it's difficult to get flight following, but if you can, why not do that? You get radar advisories, you've got ATC right there if you have a problem, and they've got you on radar. I don't go on a trip without it, especially if I'm hovering near airspace. Especially makes the handoffs easy if you're going to class C airports or into or around Bs.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I have filed a total of one VFR flight plan in my life, and that was because my instructor made me when I was doing training for my private. I had no problems.
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Same here, I just use flight following, much less of a headache.
 
Ditto for me. I haven't filed a flight plan since I flew in the ADIZ. I'm certainly not going there again.
 
I have flight follwing in the area and I started using it to substitute VFR flight plans.
 
ted gilbertson said:
I have flight follwing in the area and I started using it to substitute VFR flight plans.
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Flight following's cool, but we get dropped before the ends of flights over inhospitable terrain all the time therefore, flight following is not really an adequate substitute for a recorded Flight Plan of some kind. I like to use both simultaneously.
 
I have had good service from Flight Service...In the past 60 days, I have filed a dozen or so plans. I fled one yesterday on the phone with the engine warming up and was able to get a clearance in 60 seconds on the RCO...
Things have improved greatly from the worst...
 
I was using flight service when they switched over to lockeed so that is probly why I had so many problems.
 
Address it to Andy Cebula at AOPA. There's no excuse for Lockmart's behavior. PERIOD.
 
I never file VFR flight plans, so I cannot comment on this.

I file IFR reasonably frequently, and have had no difficulty at all with this, except one time when my flight plan was misplaced (they did not accuse me of not filing it, they just said they could not find it), so I had to re-file it, which they did for me on the clearance delivery number. This was while I was idling at the end of a remote field, but somehow it was less irritating in my own plane, which has no Hobbs meter...
 
Ugh. In other news, I had maybe my worst weather briefing ever today. Briefer was completely scatterbrained, didn't listen when I asked for further details, didn't seem to understand the most basic of questions... I ended up scrubbing.

Funny thing is, the other briefing that sticks out in my mind as really bad was only 2-3 months ago (That one, the briefer couldn't even interpret the NOTAMs, insisting that the north ramp was coated with ice - We don't have a north ramp). While the frequency of bad briefings have gone down, in my limited experience, the bad briefings have gotten REALLY bad.
 
Just curious, with all the information available on the internet as some very good flight programs available, why would anyone bother with using the FSS?
 
Rotor&Wing said:
Just curious, with all the information available on the internet as some very good flight programs available, why would anyone bother with using the FSS?
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As long as you're using something with DUAT(S) access, that'll record your check. However, if you're just using random weather services then a call to FSS is worthwhile. If anything happens, I'd like it to be on the official record that I checked the weather. Also, I'll call for an abbreviated and specifically end the call with "understand no TFRs in the area?". It's a nice little insurance policy to have them on tape telling you that none exist in the area of the flight.
 
I generally only call FSS these days when I'm going near a major area that is likely to have TFRs to confirm there aren't any, and have that on tape. The rest of the time, I normally use aviationweather.gov and DUATS.
 
FlyNE said:
Also, I'll call for an abbreviated and specifically end the call with "understand no TFRs in the area?". It's a nice little insurance policy to have them on tape telling you that none exist in the area of the flight.
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No "insurance policy" there, if he screws up and tells you there isn't one, and you violate one that is there you are still responsible as PIC.

I haven't used FSS in years and really don't miss it.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
Just curious, with all the information available on the internet as some very good flight programs available, why would anyone bother with using the FSS?
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Because you're staying some place that doesn't have internet?
Because the FBO at the field is a self-service gas pump?
When I travel, if my destination has internet access that's a sign I haven't gone far enough. :D

Even when an FBO has a computer set up for briefing, it's frequently a non-government service such as WSI. Not having an account there it's easier to file your flight plan over the phone than trying to sweat it out of a strange computer. I find myself talking to flight service at least once a month.

Rotor&Wing said:
No "insurance policy" there, if he screws up and tells you there isn't one, and you violate one that is there you are still responsible as PIC.
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To the contrary: In September of '07 about a dozen aircraft violated the expanded P40 and were intercepted. Turns out LockMart had "lost" the notam. Each of the pilots who had received an FSS briefing was let off the hook by the FAA.
 
Geico266 said:
Yep! Me too.
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All you folks using flight following in lieu of a VFR flight plan, I hope you realize that these are two completely different services with very little overlap. The sole function of a VFR flight plan is to activate and direct SAR efforts. Flight following provides traffic avoidance and ATC coordination. While it is true that if ATC is tracking your airplane on radar and you call in with an emergency they will do all they can to help but there's a significant chance that FF simply won't be available for some or all of any particular flight. I really don't see FF as a practical substitute for a flight plan, but that said I've never been a big proponent of VFR flight plans for most XC flight. It always seemed to me that having someone expecting you at your destination with a good idea of your flight path and departure time was as good or better.
 
One of my last three ADIZ flight plans ended up in the system at the wrong time. Had to refile from the cellphone while on the ground awaiting departure squawk. The return portion of the flight (filed at the same time) made it fine.

No, I was NOT happy.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
No "insurance policy" there, if he screws up and tells you there isn't one, and you violate one that is there you are still responsible as PIC.
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That's not even close to true. FSS is THE official way to get that information if you're sitting on the ramp in the airplane waiting to take off. If they don't give it to you, what makes you think that you'd still be held responsible?

Please support any opinions with an official interpretation or enforcement action.
 
lancefisher said:
All you folks using flight following in lieu of a VFR flight plan, I hope you realize that these are two completely different services with very little overlap. The sole function of a VFR flight plan is to activate and direct SAR efforts. Flight following provides traffic avoidance and ATC coordination. While it is true that if ATC is tracking your airplane on radar and you call in with an emergency they will do all they can to help but there's a significant chance that FF simply won't be available for some or all of any particular flight.
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This may very well be a regional issue. Around here, it's easy to pick up flight following. I've never had an issue with getting it as far out west as I've gone (Iowa). Now granted, the times when you likely can't get it due to congestion or being below radar are probably the times when you would arguably be most likely to need the SAR efforts (i.e. skud running which puts you below radar coverage), but I can only remember one time that I've asked for flight following and been told "unable."

So, given that, if I have, say, an engine failure while on flight following, I'll reset my transponder to 7700 and call ATC to inform them what happened, what I'm doing, and request to be tracked and have emergency services come. There are a number of documented cases where people have done this with successful results.

If you're in a different part of the country where getting flight following is unavailable, then that is another matter entirely.

I really don't see FF as a practical substitute for a flight plan, but that said I've never been a big proponent of VFR flight plans for most XC flight. It always seemed to me that having someone expecting you at your destination with a good idea of your flight path and departure time was as good or better.
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I think it depends on where you live. You're right that someone else knowing about when you're supposed to be at your destination and your approximate route of flight is probably going to be more useful, but I'd much rather have ATC with my exact radar track (and thus knowing exactly where I was when I disappeared) if it's at all possible.
 
Ted put it well in the above post.
The big factor to me is what part of the country you are in.
I have only flown as far East as MEM, but have flown as far West as the ocean.
I can say in my personal experience, when around the midwest here, I normally just get on FF or file IFR and I am a happy camper.
When out west, that is a BIG LONELY desert, where you can't always talk to someone depending on your altitude and I have filed plenty of VFR plans there.
I ALSO tell someone when I am supposed to arrive at xx and if I don't call by xx, call the FAA. (and give them the number)
SO, IMHO, they serve a very useful purpose and it is up to each pilot really when to use or not use them depending on a wide variety of factors.

Mark B.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
Just curious, with all the information available on the internet as some very good flight programs available, why would anyone bother with using the FSS?
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This was something that I thought about a lot , why call Flight service to have them read something that I already just read on the internet? I still call them on long flights or if I have any doubts about the weather or TFR's. Protecting my self from the FAA never crossed my mine.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I generally only call FSS these days when I'm going near a major area that is likely to have TFRs to confirm there aren't any, and have that on tape. The rest of the time, I normally use aviationweather.gov and DUATS.
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I generally pull up DUATS and ADDS sites when I'm getting my FSS briefing...my system of "checks and balances". ;)

I was getting a briefing last summer, and noticed a TFR on the weather computer at the FBO near my destination...had it up by the time the briefer said "No TFR's", and noted that my destination airport would be closed by the TFR at my ETA. When I asked the briefer about it, he said "It's not Presidential". "Does it not close my destination airport at my ETA?" "Yes, but it's not Presidential."

Evidently I wasn't the only one who wasn't given this particular TFR...there was quite a bit of grumbling on the radio that day.

LockMart comment line crapped out on that one, too.

Fly safe, and CYA!

David
 
Flying in the state of Washington I've never had a request for FF turned down. I have had flight plans misplaced. Call up on the radio to have it activated and there's no record. It's been a while, however. Really frustrating when I'm flying across the state and club rules require filing a flight plan (over 100 nm from OLM or crossing the Cascades). And there are things I'd rather be doing while climbing out than playing 20 questions with FSS on the radio because they can't find the plan I filed on DUATS. Maybe that was the problem?
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I generally only call FSS these days when I'm going near a major area that is likely to have TFRs to confirm there aren't any, and have that on tape. The rest of the time, I normally use aviationweather.gov and DUATS.
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fltplan.com has a direct link to the FAA TFR Page. It saves time but I'm not to sure that it gives you a good record in case something happens like a duats briefing does.
 
LearDriver said:
fltplan.com has a direct link to the FAA TFR Page. It saves time but I'm not to sure that it gives you a good record in case something happens like a duats briefing does.
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Thanks for the reference. In my case, I'm specifically looking for the good record, hence why I call in.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Thanks for the reference. In my case, I'm specifically looking for the good record, hence why I call in.
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I have had the Lockmart guys not give me TFR's when I have specifically asked for them. I do my research before calling them now.

Using the duats system there will be a saved file for your weather briefing. However, it doesn't specifically give you TFR notams as part of the weather package. I check the FAA's TFR page. Either duats or fltplan.com have it as an external link. Then I call the FSS and get more info on the TFR's so that my voice is on tape.

Its a lot of extra work. But it will be worth it if get in a scrape with ATC over it.
 
Agreed, your method seems to have the largest posterior coverage factor. I'll modify mine accordingly. Thanks for the advice.
 
FWIW, ATC generally doesn't want you to change to 7700 if you're already talking to them and have an assigned squawk. If you have something assigned, stay on that and then advise.
 
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