Flight into unknown icing

Salty

Salty

Touchdown! Greaser!
PoA Supporter
Joined
Dec 21, 2016
Messages
14,263
Location
FL
Display Name
Display name:
Salty
ok, Florida trained vfr only pilot here. Thinking about a trip to Ohio in a few weeks. It would be a short trip, one day up, one or two days there, one day back.

I can handle planning around convective weather ok, but have no experience with icing other than to utterly avoid going anywhere near the possibility of it.

Is it folly to try to take such a short trip to that locale during that time of year under these circumstances? If I get “stuck” for a few days, or a week, no big deal, I understand the reality of weather, but the plan is to come right back, if it’s nearly certain I’ll get delayed or will be unduly dangerous, I don’t want to do it.
 
Well if you’re VFR only than you really don’t need to worry about flying into icing conditions. :confused:

Yeah, Yeah, there’s those rare instances where it can happen, but if you stay VMC you’ll be aye okay.
 
Ryanb said:
Well if you’re VFR only than you really don’t need to worry about flying into icing conditions. :confused:

Yeah, Yeah, there’s those rare instances where it can happen, but if you stay VMC you’ll be aye okay.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I just always worry about that “what if I end up in a cloud unintentionally”.

I am remembering how many gray cloudy days there are up there in November.......

So change the question to “how likely am I to get stuck in cloudy weather for a month in east Ohio beginning of nov”
 
Don’t go into the clouds unintentionally ,got icing in October,while IMC.
 
Don't know about Ohio, but here in Minnesota and North Dakota we've been getting into stretches of a week or so at OVC 2000 and freezing level not a whole lot farther above that. Seems like it can go a couple of weeks sometimes.

Hopefully Ohio is better!
 
Stay in VMC and if there is rain consider if it could become freezing rain. If you aren’t in a cloud or fog and you aren’t in freezing rain, you won’t pick up airframe ice. Turn on pitot heat in any rain as a precaution (if it turns to freezing rain, you can fly out of it before you are iced up beyond flyability but you won’t get far without a clear pitot tube). But in general, count your blessings that you have time to spare... and go by air!
 
Sure you can go. Just start checking the weather a week out and see what develops. Especially keep an eye on the freezing level, winds (prob headwind this time of the year), and low pressure systems.
 
For VFR the only icing you should be on the look out for is freezing rain. Mind you ceilings / vis and plan west of the mountains near Gatlinburg and you should be fine. October is usually good flying WX in Ohio.
 
I earned my license and Instrument ticket flying along the OH / WV border abive the Ohio River, much of both in the winter. Many XC hours over snowy ground. Stay out of clouds and you'll do alright. Only had to stay over one night on one trip for ice, and that was along my route near Beckley, WV, where some poor soul had an icing emergency around 7000 msl. So I went the long way home the next day, into the wind.

Speaking of WV, be sure to allow plenty of altitude if yiu go that way. I much preferred 7500 msl or higher. Or come up on the west side of Atlanta and Chattanooga, Oak Ridge, etc.--there's a huge, wide valley that way depending on what part of Ohio you're going to.
 
Salty said:
So change the question to “how likely am I to get stuck in cloudy weather for a month in east Ohio beginning of nov”
Click to expand...

November is usually when the bad weather starts. You won't be stuck for a month but it's not uncommon to have IFR conditions for a week straight. Since your trip is so short you'll probably be okay if you analyze the weather carefully before you leave FL.
 
iamtheari said:
If you aren’t in a cloud or fog and you aren’t in freezing rain, you won’t pick up airframe ice.
Click to expand...

That’s right.

It’s pretty much all that VFR pilots need to know about avoiding airframe icing.
 
One doesn’t know what they don’t know, right? First of all, it’s good that you’re already contemplating all that could go wrong. Alas, if you’re concern is only about icing after inadvertently having flown into IMC, well, your concerns are misplaced. Icing is inconvenient, it’s true, but flying into clouds by VFR pilots is downright LETHAL!
I used to take friends sailing on the San Francisco Bay. Many would ask if they might be eaten by sharks if they fell in the water. It’s possible, I explained. But the most perilous issue facing a man overboard is hypothermia and drowning (if the crew loses sight of them). If they’re not back on board the in 20 minutes or less, they’re in deep kimshee. By contrast, a private pilot flying into the clouds - statistically - has about 3 minutes before they die. Don’t do that.
 
j1b3h0 said:
One doesn’t know what they don’t know, right? First of all, it’s good that you’re already contemplating all that could go wrong. Alas, if you’re concern is only about icing after inadvertently having flown into IMC, well, your concerns are misplaced. Icing is inconvenient, it’s true, but flying into clouds by VFR pilots is downright LETHAL!
I used to take friends sailing on the San Francisco Bay. Many would ask if they might be eaten by sharks if they fell in the water. It’s possible, I explained. But the most perilous issue facing a man overboard is hypothermia and drowning (if the crew loses sight of them). If they’re not back on board the in 20 minutes or less, they’re in deep kimshee. By contrast, a private pilot flying into the clouds - statistically - has about 3 minutes before they die. Don’t do that.
Click to expand...
message received. My first ever flight with foggles on (as a student pilot still) I managed to do multiple 180's, ascending and descending, for more than an hour without needing help from my instructor. I think that sufficiently breaks the "you're going to die in 3 minutes" fallacy. But again, I don't disagree with the dangers inherent.
 
I’m not sure it was. An hour of turns, descending and climbing while wearing foggles is akin to learning just enough karate to get your a55 kicked - when it comes to actual IMC. Sounds as though you don’t the statistic would apply to you,...what with your fine foggle performance. Tell me I’m wrong.
 
j1b3h0 said:
I’m not sure it was. An hour of turns, descending and climbing while wearing foggles is akin to learning just enough karate to get your a55 kicked - when it comes to actual IMC. Sounds as though you don’t the statistic would apply to you,...what with your fine foggle performance. Tell me I’m wrong.
Click to expand...
If I didn't think I could do a 180 in IMC I wouldn't be flying with a cloud in the sky until I had trained enough that I could. So, no, I do not think that statistic applies to me, anymore than it applies to anyone that's trained enough to be comfortable doing it repeatedly without assistance. You don't need an IR to be able to live through a 180 in IMC.
 
I don’t understand the concept of “what if I accidentally fly into a cloud?” If that’s a remote possibility, you’re pushing things too much.

Keep track of the freezing level. Any visible moisture (clouds, precip, etc.) above that *will* freeze.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Eric Gleason said:
I don’t understand the concept of “what if I accidentally fly into a cloud?” If that’s a remote possibility, you’re pushing things too much.

Keep track of the freezing level. Any visible moisture (clouds, precip, etc.) above that *will* freeze.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Probably true. But it happens somehow.
 
Don’t let it happen. I’m instrument rated and have flown plenty of hours in IMC. It’s quite different than flying with foggles.

Be flexible on your flying days/time and you should be fine. Lots of good weather days even in the middle of winter. In the fall even more so. The temp may good on the ground but chilly up above. Some days it can get cold though. One trip in May to Wisconsin we had to fly around the state of Illinois due to low clouds, icing and even snow between Rockford and Chicago. In May!

Swing over to Chattanooga if you need to stay lower instead of risking it going over the Appalachians. Between Knoxville and Charlotte they get up near 7,000’.
 
Funny thing about foggles is you have no choice but to look down at the instruments. IMC has the added distraction of actually looking up and seeing nothing. Looking right and left and seeing nothing-all the while you are not looking at your instruments.
 
wayne said:
Don’t let it happen. I’m instrument rated and have flown plenty of hours in IMC. It’s quite different than flying with foggles.
Click to expand...
Foggles or the hood or a complete joke. I totally agree with you.. with foggles even if you think you are focused on the instruments, you are still getting all sorts of peripheral vision cues, and the air mass is relatively consistent.. once you actually get inside a real cloud and you start looking around it's a completely different experience when there's nothing but a sea of white around you.. plus, the air in clouds tends to be less stable so you're getting bumped and drifted around, even if the turbulence is light

benyflyguy said:
IMC has the added distraction of actually looking up and seeing nothing
Click to expand...
Yup!

I have safety piloted for many people who have their requisite 40 hours simulated instrument, but maybe 0.2 actual (thanks San Diego weather).. it's amazing how many perfectly good pilots end up getting all out of sorts in the clouds.. that very shallow bank and climb will quickly get you way off course and 300 feet off in altitude. What I see happened to most people, is that they assume their own equilibrium will inherently keep the plane upright as they start reviewing approach plates, and dialing radios and frequencies. Even if they've only looked away for one minute, that's enough time for the plane toto complete go bonkers .. and you won't notice it until you look up and you find that you're losing 700 feet a minute and in 20 degree bank


the most dangerous thing, is thinking it can't happen to you; getting spatially disoriented...
 
Straw man. Never said I couldn’t get spatial disorientation. Or that there is no difference between foggles and actual. But I do think the IR checkride is not a magic wand that allows you to live more than 300 seconds in IMC.

To bring the thread back to the beginning, I already accepted that icing was not a real issue. I have no intentions of getting into IMC. I’m just very cautious, and like to think through the possibilities
 
Salty said:
Straw man. Never said I couldn’t get spatial disorientation. Or that there is no difference between foggles and actual. But I do think the IR checkride is not a magic wand that allows you to live more than 300 seconds in IMC.

To bring the thread back to the beginning, I already accepted that icing was not a real issue. I have no intentions of getting into IMC. I’m just very cautious, and like to think through the possibilities
Click to expand...
Haha, I didn't quote you because my reply wasn't directly directed at you..

But there is a big difference in actual vs simulated that many people underestimate. I have a couple recently minted instrument pilot friends, many of whom have over 300 hours (but <5 actual), and most of them will not fly an actual IMC without another pilot on board.. at least not until they get sufficiently more experience
 
Ryanb said:
Those mountains that you speak of are called the Smoky Mountains which just so happen to be nestled amongst the Appalachia’s.
Click to expand...

Smoky Mountains or the Appalachian Mountains. The later is the correct term. The Smoky Mountains are just the name of a tourist trap.
 
Clip4 said:
Smoky Mountains or the Appalachian Mountains. The later is the correct term. The Smoky Mountains are just the name of a tourist trap.
Click to expand...
Well to be fair, the Smoky Mountains are actually their own subset of the Appalachian chain. The tourist trap is the city of Pigeon Forge and Sevierville.
 
@Salty just stay VFR, and you'll be fine...I fly all winter in Michigan, and here we have the Great Lakes weather system to contend with...On average I find I can fly 4 out of 7 days a week, all winter, no problem. Just have a plan for those 3-out-of-7 days. As far a freezing rain, 99% of the time, you'll know about it well in advance.
 
Oh, and I guess I should add, that it does get breezy up this way in winter...how's your crosswind landings?
 
tawood said:
Oh, and I guess I should add, that it does get breezy up this way in winter...how's your crosswind landings?
Click to expand...
I live in Florida on a small airport with a north south runway. Most summer afternoons its a 10-20 knot crosswind.
 
Salty said:
message received. My first ever flight with foggles on (as a student pilot still) I managed to do multiple 180's, ascending and descending, for more than an hour without needing help from my instructor. I think that sufficiently breaks the "you're going to die in 3 minutes" fallacy. But again, I don't disagree with the dangers inherent.
Click to expand...
Perishable skill, bad backup plan.
 
tawood said:
@Salty just stay VFR, and you'll be fine...I fly all winter in Michigan, and here we have the Great Lakes weather system to contend with...On average I find I can fly 4 out of 7 days a week, all winter, no problem. Just have a plan for those 3-out-of-7 days. As far a freezing rain, 99% of the time, you'll know about it well in advance.
Click to expand...

That seems to hold pretty true across the Midwest, although the lakes present their own challenges.

Even if Salty was instrument rated it’s the season to tread lightly in IMC - we had a pilot report of ice over my home airport at 3500 feet making it not realistically flyable in the typical light airplane without deice. So we get to stay underneath and go VFR if we want to fly.
 
mondtster said:
That seems to hold pretty true across the Midwest, although the lakes present their own challenges.

Even if Salty was instrument rated it’s the season to tread lightly in IMC - we had a pilot report of ice over my home airport at 3500 feet making it not realistically flyable in the typical light airplane without deice. So we get to stay underneath and go VFR if we want to fly.
Click to expand...

Yep, had trace ice last night at the bottom of a cloud layer at 4,000ft. Freezing level was 8,000 but that must have been due to an inversion because it was 9c at the surface.
 
@Salty - if you haven't been up in some actual IMC, you really owe it to yourself to find a CFI(I) and a good IFR weather day and get up there to see what it's like - ask your CFI to file IFR and then see if ATC will can give you a block altitude for some maneuvers and just try to make that 180 degree turn.

It's *nothing* like foggles. And it's *especially* nothing like foggles when you just screwed up and went IMC for real and that trusty CFI(I) isn't sitting next to you...

Based on several of your replies, I sort of get the sense that you're exhibiting one of those "Hazardous Attitudes" that the FAA preaches about so much in the PHAK (p. 2-5 if you need a reminder)...
 
Mr.T said:
@Salty

Based on several of your replies, I sort of get the sense that you're exhibiting one of those "Hazardous Attitudes" that the FAA preaches about so much in the PHAK (p. 2-5 if you need a reminder)...
Click to expand...

I don't get that sense.
 
Oh, what's the use? They're all hazardous.
 
Salty said:
point missed
Click to expand...

Salty, hand flying in instrument conditions is a perishable skill, it deteriorates with time. Being good under a hood years ago with an instructor at your side does not mean you won't death spiral in while in actual now alone. It is a bad to even think of it as a back up plan to get out of the clouds. There are too many dead pilots who have not survived VFR into IMC.

Your post I responded to, specifically the sentence " I think that sufficiently breaks the "you're going to die in 3 minutes" fallacy." is a dangerous thought to have in your head as a VFR pilot, time and time again it's been proven wrong for pilots who have paid the ultimate price. But enough of that.

As to your original post, in your last sentence, you contradict yourself a little, you say, to paraphrase, a small to substantial delay is no problem, then say but if there is a chance of a delay you would rather not do it.

I think that chances are pretty good you would get up there and back without an issue if the weather cooperates, which you should be able to figure out as you get close to the date you want to go. I say if the weather looks good AND you can tolerate a delay if things don't go as planned, do it . If you need to be on a tight schedule and the weather is questionable for your timeframe, then don't do it. Avoid ice and freezing at all costs. Avoid VFR into IMC at all costs. It's as simple as that.

I'll also say this, get your IFR ticket. I'm in the process now and I'll tell you, I fully understand how and why people start and stop. It has been a humbling experience for me, but it has been great too. Things are clicking now and it is a great way to fly. It takes the VMC into IMC issue out of the picture (with limitations, by being proficient and on an IFR plan) and makes trips like yours more doable and less stressful. Flying into the clouds is a unique experience, it's tough to describe relying on your ability to read the instruments to keep the airplane under control, but it's pretty cool and well worth the effort.
 
Last edited:
PaulS said:
... It takes the VFR into IMC issue out of the picture...
Click to expand...
Have you seen the stats on IR pilots who fly VFR into IMC? Its not good at all. Or is that what you mean by "limitations"?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top