Flight Following

[Shawn]

Is one better than the other?

My format for all initial contact radio calls:

Who you are calling, who you are, where you are, want you want

Per AIM:

4-2-3. CONTACT PROCEDURES
a. Initial Contact -
1. The terms initial contact or initial callup means the first radio call you make to a given facility or the first call to a different controller or FSS specialist within a facility. Use the following format:
(a) Name of the facility being called;
(b) Your FULL aircraft identification as filed in the flight plan or as discussed under Aircraft Call Signs below;
(c) The type of message to follow or your request if it is short, and
(d) the word "Over" if required.
EXAMPLES:
"NEW YORK RADIO, MOONEY THREE ONE ONE ECHO."
"COLUMBIA GROUND, CESSNA THREE ONE SIX ZERO FOXTROT, IFR MEMPHIS."
"MIAMI CENTER, BARON FIVE SIX THREE HOTEL, REQUEST VFR TRAFFIC ADVISORIES."

 

[iamtheari]

Format for initial contact radio calls:

Who you are calling, who you are, where you are, want you want

I'm referring to a non-initial call but perhaps I'm missing the boat entirely. Here's the basic format I've seen generally recommended to request flight following:

N123A: Center, N123A, request.
Center: N123A, say request.
N123A: N123A is a PA28, over ABC VORTAC, level 5,500, VFR to XYZ airport, request flight following.

But I put myself in Center's shoes and think that second call would be easier to follow if the pilot said what he wants before telling me the rest of his life story:
N123A: N123A requests flight following. Type PA28, over ABC VORTAC, level 5,500, VFR to XYZ airport.

 

[Shawn]

(c) The type of message to follow or your request if it is short

"Center, Cherokee N123A over ABC VORTAC 5'500 request FF to ZYX"

...but that is just my preference.

 

[iamtheari]

You added the AIM quote after I started my reply so I didn't see it while writing. That does make sense.

 

[tuwood]

If you have FF going to KXYZ airport and decide you see something pretty and want to go low and sight see do you have to get permission or drop to VFR? Or do you just go because they're just following you?

 

[bullwinkle]

If you look in the A/FD (or the airport info in your iPad app) in the communications frequencies section, you'll usually see an approach/departure frequency listed. That will be a good bet for getting FF. If it's not right they will tell you the correct freq.

When traveling in unfamiliar areas, just pick the closest airport, pull up the freqs on your app (or look up in the A/FD) and call the approach/departure control freq to get FF. It has always worked for me, and takes all the guesswork out of who to contact.

 

[MAKG1]

If you have FF going to KXYZ airport and decide you see something pretty and want to go low and sight see do you have to get permission or drop to VFR? Or do you just go because they're just following you?

You're VFR. You only need permission for Class B, restricted airspace, and TFRs.

You can advise ATC. You might get asked if you do something unexpected, or if ATC can't tell when you'll need a handoff.

FF may sound like IFR in some respects, but it isn't.

 

[azpilot]

If there is an approach frequency in the A/FD, that's who you call. You can usually guess from the magenta and blue boxes on the TAC. It really isn't a big deal to call the wrong one unless you bust airspace before it's sorted out.

In my limited experience, D's in very complex airspace (like under a B shelf) tend to do the coordination. Others, usually not. I've never had a D coordinate with center, always approach. I prefer to make the request on the ground, and will do so unless I know it won't work. I use flight following for almost everything (except IFR), including air work, radio relay, photos, and search patterns.

Interesting, I thought FF was mainly used for cross country flights. So you use it if you are just headed out to the practice area to practice stalls and maneuvers?

 

[azpilot]

Here is another FF question. If you are on FF, and your course of flight will take you through class D airspace, how do you handle that? Does center clear you through the Delta airspace? Do you break off from FF to call the delta tower to get the transition?

 

[bullwinkle]

Interesting, I thought FF was mainly used for cross country flights. So you use it if you are just headed out to the practice area to practice stalls and maneuvers?

You can, just tell them that you plan maneuvers in the local area. Some people won't leave the pattern without FF, but that seems a little over the top to me. I just use it when doing longer flights.

 

[GeorgeC]

Here is another FF question. If you are on FF, and your course of flight will take you through class D airspace, how do you handle that? Does center clear you through the Delta airspace? Do you break off from FF to call the delta tower to get the transition?

In general, they take care of it for you. The earlier you advise them of your intentions, the easier it will be.

 

[azpilot]

In general, they take care of it for you. The earlier you advise them of your intentions, the easier it will be.

Here is an example. I am planning on taking my sister on a flight to KGEU to get breakfast in a couple of weeks on a Saturday Morning. For the flight home, I am planning on staying to the North of PHX, and then transitioning the KFFZ airspace on the way back to KCHD.

https://skyvector.com/?ll=33.473606...2&fpl= KGEU 3333N11214W 3333N11147W KFFZ KCHD

So, after I depart KGEU, I call up PHX approach, and ask for flight following back to KCHD. They give me a squawk code and away I go. With this route, I am going to get really close the delta airspace at KSDL as well. When do I tell them I intend to transition the KFFZ airspace? Should I say that on initial call up like this?

"Phoenix Approach, Bugsmasher 123AB, just departed KGEU, request flight following to KCHD via KSDL and KFFZ?"

Or better yet, I can ask KGEU ground to set up the flight following as has been discussed here.

NOTE - the point of this flight is to see the sights of the Phoenix area. I know I could do the Bravo transition over PHX, but I'd rather take the longer route over the area where we grew up.

 

[Shawn]

If you have FF going to KXYZ airport and decide you see something pretty and want to go low and sight see do you have to get permission or drop to VFR? Or do you just go because they're just following you?

You are VFR and free to fly where you want when you want...but per AIM, you "should" advise of any altitude change:

4-1-14. Radar Traffic Information Service

B-2. When receiving VFR radar advisory service, pilots should monitor the assigned frequency at all times.... Pilots should also inform the controller when changing VFR cruising altitude.....

Note is says "should", not must and "advise" not request. Important distinction that many VFR pilots miss and can result in a crabby response from ATC.

The call should be "Center, Cherokee ABC12 leaving 5,500' for decent for maneuvers"

NOT: "Center, request 2,000" or "can I have lower?".

If your call requires the need for an answer of anything other than "thanks" or "roger" from ATC, you have made a request, not advised of altitude change. You will also likely get a "VFR altitude at your discression". Some controller will still get a bit bothered, but if you have made the proper call of advising...it is their problem.

 

[iamtheari]

The A/FD for KGEU says you can call Luke Approach/Departure. But I'd ask for it on the ground at Glendale. The airspace in the west valley looks pretty complicated and I'd rather not be twiddling knobs on the transponder while trying to stay below the class B shelf but above terrain. The worst they can say is no, ask when you're airborne. Looks like a fun flight.

 

[Shawn]

Interesting, I thought FF was mainly used for cross country flights. So you use it if you are just headed out to the practice area to practice stalls and maneuvers?

Personally I use FF almost all the time. I like having another set of eyes looking out for me and actually enjoy the radio work and being part of the "system"

Here is another FF question. If you are on FF, and your course of flight will take you through class D airspace, how do you handle that? Does center clear you through the Delta airspace? Do you break off from FF to call the delta tower to get the transition?

If you are on FF, there is no need to leave the frequency to contact tower on your own. The controller you are talking to is supposed to coordinate your transitions and arrival. Regulation states that you must be in "two way communication" with the ATF facility that has jurisdictional control (which is not just tower)...so if your destination is XYZ, yo can be sure that the approach controller leading into XYX does in fact have jurisdictional control. Now while enroute you have no way of knowing if the controller you are chatting with has jurisdictional control over the Delta you want to transition (but a good chance they do). You do not need to contact tower on your own, but it is always a good idea to CYA to be sure you are good to go.

"Approach, Cherokee ABX12 confirming you are coordinating my transition through ABC Delta?"

 

[MAKG1]

You can, just tell them that you plan maneuvers in the local area. Some people won't leave the pattern without FF, but that seems a little over the top to me. I just use it when doing longer flights.

If you have a problem and you're not talking to anyone and don't have a VFR flight plan (THAT'S a lot more difficult for "maneuvers"), you may not be found for a long time, even in not very remote places. Most of the "practice areas" around here are over unpopulated valleys, where you won't get a cell signal even 10 miles out of the city, and you won't be able to walk out with a sprained ankle that you might get from landing in an unimproved field. Even ELTs are hard to hear when terrain shadowed.

 

[GeorgeC]

"Phoenix Approach, Bugsmasher 123AB, just departed KGEU, request flight following to KCHD via KSDL and KFFZ?"

More or less, though I'd leave out KSDL since you're not entering their airspace; just have a plan B in case they respond with "Bugsmasher 123AB, unable".

Personally, for such a short flight, I'd fly over FFZ's delta and not bother with FF.

 

[azpilot]

More or less, though I'd leave out KSDL since you're not entering their airspace; just have a plan B in case they respond with "Bugsmasher 123AB, unable".

Personally, for such a short flight, I'd fly over FFZ's delta and not bother with FF.

I have never used FF by myself. The last time I was on FF was a dual cross country flight. For my long CC, my instructor suggested that I not do it due to work load considerations. I fly out of KCHD, which is in Class D airspace. I am very comfortable with all the radio communications necessary for class D, because I do it so frequently and often now. I want to get to that same level of proficiency with FF as well as class Bravo and Charlie airspace as well.

 

[azpilot]

The A/FD for KGEU says you can call Luke Approach/Departure.

Good point. I need to make sure I contact the right approach center.

 

[danhagan]

Thanks for all the help guys!

So, after I depart KGEU, I call up PHX approach, and ask for flight following back to KCHD. They give me a squawk code and away I go.

I can only say "WOW"!

I have transitioned the PHX area at least 6 times on long XC flights only to have them attempt to drop me from flight following. All of them have been immediately after the ABQ center hand off. One of the times I was asked if I could turn south towards Gila to avoid an approach corridor (I wasn't near it) while eastbound KFUL to KELP. I did as requested and 5 minutes later got a "Squawk VFR frequency change approved, you're out of our coverage area." I responded I was diverted in that direction. Re-established with ABQ center a short time later and they complained that "PHX ALWAYS pulls that crap" and yes they said crap.

 

[James331]

More or less, though I'd leave out KSDL since you're not entering their airspace; just have a plan B in case they respond with "Bugsmasher 123AB, unable".

Personally, for such a short flight, I'd fly over FFZ's delta and not bother with FF.

I usually will say, blah blah requesting flight following present position direct XYZ, 5,500.


BUT if I'm not going direct, if I'm using a waypoint of some sort, I'd say, blah blah requesting flight following present position, direct ABC, direct XYZ.

So if I'm understanding what was said above, in that case I'd toss in KSDL since he's using it as a waypoint, make it easier for ATC to understand why you're not flying direct on his screen.

 

[tuwood]

Interesting, I thought FF was mainly used for cross country flights. So you use it if you are just headed out to the practice area to practice stalls and maneuvers?

I guess I'm technically using FF in this way on all of my training flights. I'm not specifically requesting FF, but I'm flying out of a Class C and get a squawk and handed off to departure every flight. Just this morning it came in handy because approach warned me about an unidentified aircraft or possible birds on radar to my east and sure enough there was a nice gaggle of geese heading right for us. Little bastards were flying at the wrong altitude for VFR Westbound traffic. I contacted the FAA with their tail numbers.

 

[mjburian]

Here is another FF question. If you are on FF, and your course of flight will take you through class D airspace, how do you handle that? Does center clear you through the Delta airspace? Do you break off from FF to call the delta tower to get the transition?

For me, this falls under the category of "trust, but verify". I think they're technically supposed to handle the transition for you, but I always make sure of it. "XXX Approach, verify that Bugsmasher 123 is cleared to transition the XXX Delta." When in doubt, ask... but also be ready to contact the tower should you find out that they're NOT handling the transition for you. I've been cut off by approach pretty close to Delta airspace before with "Contact us on the other side on frequency XXX.xx". I assumed that had something to do with the particular airspace (KDPA), but I was glad I had the frequency in my backup so I could quickly flip flop and call to establish two way radio communication.

 

[luvflyin]

For me, this falls under the category of "trust, but verify". I think they're technically supposed to handle the transition for you, but I always make sure of it. "XXX Approach, verify that Bugsmasher 123 is cleared to transition the XXX Delta." When in doubt, ask... but also be ready to contact the tower should you find out that they're NOT handling the transition for you. I've been cut off by approach pretty close to Delta airspace before with "Contact us on the other side on frequency XXX.xx". I assumed that had something to do with the particular airspace (KDPA), but I was glad I had the frequency in my backup so I could quickly flip flop and call to establish two way radio communication.

Yeah, their procedures are that they are to coordinate it. There is even a note in those procedures stating that the pilots are not expected to obtain their own authorization. HOWEVER, I am pretty sure the dude in the long black robe and the big wooden hammer has determined that that don't let you off the hook if they boo-boo and don't do it. I recall a decision from his high exalted immenance, The FAA Chief of Counsel, that it is the pilots responsibility to ensure that they have done the cooridination before flying into the Kingdom of Delta.

 

[Shawn]

Although there is no regulation on this, if your direct to destination is gonna take you though other Delta or Charlie airspace, it is pretty safe to to assume that the controller is gonna coordinate the transition...as they are supposed to. If you randomly decide to drop down to 2000' feet and divert 45 degrees to your left unadvised and you blow through D or C...that is more likely where you may have a problem.

 

[mjburian]

Although there is no regulation on this, if your direct to destination is gonna take you though other Delta or Charlie airspace, it is pretty safe to to assume that the controller is gonna coordinate the transition. If you randomly decide to drop down to 2000' feet and divert 45 degrees to your left unadvised and you blow through D or C...that is more likely where you may have a problem.

I'd agree that USUALLY that's true, my caution to verify that was based on being dumped from flight following just shy of the boundary of a Delta. It never hurts to double check...

 

[Shawn]

I'd agree that USUALLY that's true, my caution to verify that was based on being dumped from flight following just shy of the boundary of a Delta. It never hurts to double check...

Absolutely correct...if you are dumped off of FF and told to "squawk VFR, frequency change approved" without a handoff to tower before entering the airspace...THEN it is on you to to establish contact with tower prior to entering. Two way communication is no longer being maintained. I have indeed had this happen before.

"Squwak VFR and Contact Tower" to me is a handoff and I am good to enter even before checking in with tower as I am still in two way communication, just no longer receiving radar services.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Yeah, their procedures are that they are to coordinate it. There is even a note in those procedures stating that the pilots are not expected to obtain their own authorization. HOWEVER, I am pretty sure the dude in the long black robe and the big wooden hammer has determined that that don't let you off the hook if they boo-boo and don't do it. I recall a decision from his high exalted immenance, The FAA Chief of Counsel, that it is the pilots responsibility to ensure that they have done the cooridination before flying into the Kingdom of Delta.

Not that I am aware of. There is one that involves flight into a Class C area while talking to Center, but whether that analysis applies to the TRACON/Class D situation where there is a specific FAA Order on the subject is at least questionable. Those few time I have been low enough to transition Class D (as opposed to landing there) I have relied on TRACON' coordination responsibility.

 

[luvflyin]

Not that I am aware of. There is one that involves flight into a Class C area while talking to Center, but whether that analysis applies to the TRACON/Class D situation where there is a specific FAA Order on the subject is at least questionable. Those few time I have been low enough to transition Class D (as opposed to landing there) I have relied on TRACON' coordination responsibility.

Yeah. I think the decision I remembered was the Center and a Class C. Given that the rules for entry into a C and a D are the same, establish communications, my guess is the same decision would have come down.

 

[Velocity173]

The controller providing radar FF is responsible by order (7110.65) to coordinate the transition through another facility's surface area. If you want to remind them to get the coordination, you might just get a "yes, it's my job" reply.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Yeah. I think the decision I remembered was the Center and a Class C. Given that the rules for entry into a C and a D are the same, establish communications, my guess is the same decision would have come down.

I don't. But that's just me.

 

[James331]

I'd agree that USUALLY that's true, my caution to verify that was based on being dumped from flight following just shy of the boundary of a Delta. It never hurts to double check...

You only need 2 way communication and a xprd (don't even need the xprd for D), if you're talking to ATC for FF you got two way, that's that. Make sure you get cleared before hitting B, and if in doubt ask if you're cleared into the Bravo, but for C and D you're already talking to ATC, done and done.

 

[mjburian]

You only need 2 way communication and a xprd (don't even need the xprd for D), if you're talking to ATC for FF you got two way, that's that. Make sure you get cleared before hitting B, and if in doubt ask if you're cleared into the Bravo, but for C and D you're already talking to ATC, done and done.

I don't disagree, except for the case where you're dumped from FF just prior to entering the D. I'm sure it's not on purpose, but could get you into trouble if you just assume you'll be with FF through the D transition. Confirming it ahead of time either lets you know that Approach/Center will keep you throughout the transition or gives you an earlier heads up that you'll have to change freq and make contact on your own.

 

[James331]

I don't disagree, except for the case where you're dumped from FF just prior to entering the D. I'm sure it's not on purpose, but could get you into trouble if you just assume you'll be with FF through the D transition. Confirming it ahead of time either lets you know that Approach/Center will keep you throughout the transition or gives you an earlier heads up that you'll have to change freq and make contact on your own.

That would be a jerk move on the part of ATC, but yeah, in that case might as well get it said for the record

 

[Ravioli]

I've been told that for a Towered airport to commence the flight following and issue a sqwak required a Letter of Agreement between the airport and the overlying controlling body (I think TRACON but many here will know better)

So, under the DFW BRAVO I know you can get it all the time at DTO, FTW, ADS, TKI, FWS, etc. When I was training at FWS it was not yet available.

When I check on with ground at an airport I'm unsure of, I tell them who I am, where I am, ready to taxi, request flight following. If they can do it they'll ask for the rest of the info, if not, they'll give me the freq to make the request on. Easy.

If I know they do it I give them the whole request on the initial.

 

[CC268]

If there is an approach frequency in the A/FD, that's who you call. You can usually guess from the magenta and blue boxes on the TAC. It really isn't a big deal to call the wrong one unless you bust airspace before it's sorted out.

In my limited experience, D's in very complex airspace (like under a B shelf) tend to do the coordination. Others, usually not. I've never had a D coordinate with center, always approach. I prefer to make the request on the ground, and will do so unless I know it won't work. I use flight following for almost everything (except IFR), including air work, radio relay, photos, and search patterns.

This seems like the easiest approach - I noticed on the A/FD there is a circle with an R in the middle and it always seems to be on the approach/departure line of the AFD - I suppose this means Radar services...

 

[PPC1052]

It's just the ATC facility we refer to on the radio as "Approach" or "Departure." @AggieMike88 took care of what the acronym stands for.

Yes. TRACON="Aproach"; ARTCC="Center". Essentially Approach is ATC at the class C or B airport, and Center is ATC for the big spaces between them.

 

[PPC1052]

This seems like the easiest approach - I noticed on the A/FD there is a circle with an R in the middle and it always seems to be on the approach/departure line of the AFD - I suppose this means Radar services...

Yes. You can look at the beginning of the A/FD for symbology. (Link below for convenience)

http://aeronav.faa.gov/afd/31mar2016/EC_front_31mar2016.pdf

 

[Velocity173]

Yes. TRACON="Aproach"; ARTCC="Center". Essentially Approach is ATC at the class C or B airport, and Center is ATC for the big spaces between them.

Just to add, approach could be located at Class Ds as well.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Just to add, approach could be located at Class Ds as well.

Approach can also be servicing Class E and some G airports. And if it's not listed for your Class G, chances are the frequency listed for a nearby airport that does is the correct one for you too.

It's about location and proximity, not classes of airspace. You can go from New Hampshire to DC without ever speaking to a Center controller for flight flowing.

In the absence of things like approach plates (which I would not expect a VFR pilot to worry about), AFD information is the best source. Keepin in mind that AFD information is not found only in the AFD. Just about every EFB around includes the frequencies applicable to an airport, including the TRACON or Center ones.