Flight following - not sure why I didn't use it before

Never had mic fright...by the time I got to flying lessons, I'd been an amateur radio op for 17 years (still am...), 12 years in broadcasting (4 yrs behind the mic), and never thought twice about it. Oh, you have to learn the 'glossary' (ie short, sweet, to the point with commonly agreed-upon phraseology), but frightening? I guess, if your CFI didn't stress the need to learn how or 'play act' with you on the ground in the classroom.

It's a matter of developing just one of those skills you need to have as a pretender to the left seat club. If you're flying in the middle of Kansas (a beautiful state...lived there for a few years...just using it for example) out of a small field with you and your buds...I can see where approaching NY Tracon and trying to fit in a word to get them to notice you can be a bit daunting. OTOH, learning to fly under the Mode C NY veil wedged in between NYC and PHL Class Bs, a Class C 20 minutes away, a TRSA further up and one to the west...and POTUS TFRs, etc etc etc...you get used to keying up and talking to someone.
 
I’ve debated getting FF but just haven’t been able to convince myself to actually do it other than a couple times just for practice. I typically only contact ATC when I want in their airspace. So, I have adsb in and out and targets display on my EFIS right in front of me, so it’s an easy reference to glance at. I do make a point to monitor any approach frequencies when I have been near C or B, use the local altimeter setting that they are using, and I have heard them call me out as traffic to others. Every time that has happened I already saw them on adsb and could see their flight path and altitude relative to me, like I was monitoring our relative flight paths even before ATC called me out to them.

I feel like all that has been a sufficient amount of situational awareness. I have been shocked how much trouble I have had trying to make visual contact with adsb targets, which especially concerns me about trying to see and avoid non adsb-out traffic out there. I’ve read conflicting information on my onboard traffic picture versus what ATC can see. I am usually receiving both a tis-b data link as well as air to air from other transponder equipped aircraft, but if ATC can see more than I can, then I see extra value in FF there.
 
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I am worried about being denied a pop-up just when I need it RFN. I figure that I am much more likely to get a pop-up if they are already looking at all my data on their screen. The OB boys just says it's a click and altitude re-assignment.
 
LesGawlik said:
I am worried about being denied a pop-up just when I need it RFN. I figure that I am much more likely to get a pop-up if they are already looking at all my data on their screen. The OB boys just says it's a click and altitude re-assignment.
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If you’re denied a pop up it’s because there’s no room to fit you in. Even with ADS-B they’re still required to have you on a local transponder code vs 1200. That only takes a few seconds to type in.
 
I don't understand why anyone would *not* use it. It's free, and fantastic.
 
Velocity173 said:
If you’re denied a pop up it’s because there’s no room to fit you in. Even with ADS-B they’re still required to have you on a local transponder code vs 1200. That only takes a few seconds to type in.
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Depending on the situation, this could be an emergency, getting denied a pop up IFR clearance. If you are in IMC and they say no, declare. If you can get on the ground VFR, do that and file.
 
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Hengelo said:
I don't understand why anyone would *not* use it. It's free, and fantastic.
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PaulS said:
Depending on the situation, this could be an emergency, getting denied a pop up. If you are in IMC and they say no, declare. If you can get on the ground VFR, do that and file.
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NY approach quite often denies Flight Following, so it is not “always” available. You can predict before calling whether you even have a chance of getting a code or not.

Last time I went up, I was denied, but it is still worth a try. If they can’t work me into the system, I’ll just listen to the approach frequency and then I am at leave able to declare an emergency if needed and sometime get to hear myself as the “traffic 2 o’clock, unknown type”. If that happens, I’ll call them up and let them know that I am the “traffic”.
 
Matthew Rogers said:
NY approach quite often denies Flight Following, so it is not “always” available. You can predict before calling whether you even have a chance of getting a code or not.

Last time I went up, I was denied, but it is still worth a try. If they can’t work me into the system, I’ll just listen to the approach frequency and then I am at leave able to declare an emergency if needed and sometime get to hear myself as the “traffic 2 o’clock, unknown type”. If that happens, I’ll call them up and let them know that I am the “traffic”.
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Just to be clear, I was talking about getting a pop up IFR clearance, declaring an emergency because you can't get flight following is most likely really frowned upon. ;)
 
PaulS said:
Just to be clear, I was talking about getting a pop up IFR clearance, declaring an emergency because you can't get flight following is most likely really frowned upon. ;)
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I was obviously not talking about declaring an emergency just because they denied Flight Following. Having the right frequency pulled up saves a few precious seconds, and a few more precious brain cells when the fan does actually stop turning.
 
PaulS said:
Depending on the situation, this could be an emergency, getting denied a pop up IFR clearance. If you are in IMC and they say no, declare. If you can get on the ground VFR, do that and file.
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Sure and if it results in an emergency (IIMC) because the clearance was denied, then it won’t matter if you’re in the system or not. The controller is gonna issue the clearance because it’s now been elevated to an emergency.

What I’m getting at is, while already being in the system under FF reduces a few keystrokes for an IFR pick up, it’s not going to be a determine factor in denial. Takes only a few seconds to squawk up a VFR call up and then clear them IFR. If they don’t have the room or the time to do that, then they don’t have it for someone in the system either. ATC service is first come first served so a VFR call up might have more of a delay in service but a complete denial of a service is a completely different thing.
 
Ed Haywood said:
Been wondering ... how many ATC facilities monitor 121.5?
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All of them as far as I know, well every one that I've ever worked monitors 121.5. It isn't just for pilots declaring emergencies, it's to warn a pilot about something. If only all pilots were required to monitor 121.5 it would actually accomplish something. Try working in an ATC facility during the Superbowl or the last game of the World Series.
 
My former facility had 121.5 at 4 (IIRC) different sites. All were monitored, most of time in the speaker instead of the controller's headset. Any transmission could be heard by most of the controllers in the area.
 
PastZTL said:
My former facility had 121.5 at 4 (IIRC) different sites. All were monitored, most of time in the speaker instead of the controller's headset. Any transmission could be heard by most of the controllers in the area.
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That's how they all have been for me. If you had that in your ear, you'd go nuts with all the meows and let's go Brandons, not to mention it would drown out who you were trying to talk to.
 
Timbeck2 said:
That's how they all have been for me. If you had that in your ear, you'd go nuts with all the meows and let's go Brandons, not to mention it would drown out who you were trying to talk to.
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At some point someone needs to tell them off.
 
At some point radios will have an id built in. Anonymity encourages so much bad behavior.
 
Hengelo said:
At some point radios will have an id built in. Anonymity encourages so much bad behavior.
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If the HAM operators can triangulate frequency abusers, I’m sure the same can be done for airborne aircraft and ADSB.
If they wanted to crack down that would be the only way with current tech.
But I don’t see that happening right meow, possibly in the future.
 
I use FF on every single flight over 50nm. A promise I made to my wife when I got my ticket. 300 hours later, I'm pretty comfortable talking to ATC and they have saved my bacon a time or two.

samiamPA said:
Today I was on a short XC flight at 3000, and had flight following. They advised of traffic at my 1:00, but could not tell me more because the traffic was not speaking with ATC. I could not see them because I was flying right at the sun. They advised a climb to 3500. I saw them pass right in front of me at 3000 - if not for the climb, it would have been uncomfortably close (or worse).

For the first 300 hours and 7 years that I have been flying, I never really used flight following. I know why - it's because I wasn't comfortable with talking to ATC. After a couple of IFR lessons and moving my airplane to a controlled airport, I feel so much more comfortable and it is no big deal.

If there is any VFR pilot out there who doesn't use this resource, I'd highly recommend going outside of your comfort zone and getting the training to feel comfortable with using this. It is so helpful to have another set of eyes watching the sky for me. In addition to traffic, I feel like now I always have someone by my side in the event of an emergency.
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cowtowner said:
I use FF on every single flight over 50nm. A promise I made to my wife when I got my ticket. 300 hours later, I'm pretty comfortable talking to ATC and they have saved my bacon a time or two.
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I always used it; a plus is if you aren't IR rated yet, you get very comfy talking to various ATC facilities, making that part a non-issue.
 
Velocity173 said:
Not using FF isn’t a significant increase in risk to matter, especially if using ADS-B in. And no, it’s not easier on the controller if you call for FF.
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I fly with a few guys from the local ATC and they go out of their way to encourage people to use FF. Not for traffic counts either -- they're working on overload this time of year. They're interested in who you are and what your intentions are. For better or worse, the ILS/GPS approaches for the local airports have jet trafifc transitioning from 2000-3000' down to 400' along the coast, which is exactly where sight-seeing and flight training aircraft can be found. I always pick up FF when I'm out there, even if just for a sunset flight, and there's been times when they've asked me to maintain certain altitudes or given me a heads-up about possible wake turbulence.

Piper18O said:
Years ago, when I was a student pilot, I bumbled my way through a call up to approach control and was berated by the controller.
<snip>
Of the hundreds of controllers I have talked with over the years, those were the only two that I can remember that were what I would call real A-holes.
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I feel fortunate that my training was done at a Class D with one very cranky controller. There's YouTube videos about the guy. He makes Kennedy Steve seem like Bob Ross or Mr. Rogers. My CFI warned me about him on the very first day when we heard his voice on the ATIS and told me not to take s**t from him and to give it right back to him if he does; and I have. It's actually been good training for me since I'm not assertive at all and here I had to be.

The odd part is that off the radio he's a nice guy.
 
AirHare said:
I fly with a few guys from the local ATC and they go out of their way to encourage people to use FF. Not for traffic counts either -- they're working on overload this time of year. They're interested in who you are and what your intentions are. For better or worse, the ILS/GPS approaches for the local airports have jet trafifc transitioning from 2000-3000' down to 400' along the coast, which is exactly where sight-seeing and flight training aircraft can be found. I always pick up FF when I'm out there, even if just for a sunset flight, and there's been times when they've asked me to maintain certain altitudes or given me a heads-up about possible wake turbulence.


I feel fortunate that my training was done at a Class D with one very cranky controller. There's YouTube videos about the guy. He makes Kennedy Steve seem like Bob Ross or Mr. Rogers. My CFI warned me about him on the very first day when we heard his voice on the ATIS and told me not to take s**t from him and to give it right back to him if he does; and I have. It's actually been good training for me since I'm not assertive at all and here I had to be.

The odd part is that off the radio he's a nice guy.
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And like I said, using FF creates a safer environment but it’s not easier on the controller. If they never talked to you, they’d simply issue a traffic call for the jet traffic on the ILS / GPS and be done. On FF that’s multiple traffic calls.

It’s no different than a VFR transitioning a hot MOA. I used to work our MOAs during activation times. Some VFRs would call for FF while others didn’t. I didn’t care if they called or not. It’s their prerogative if they want to transition a MOA without talking to ATC. Would be safer for them in knowing where there are military aircraft in their area doing 500 + kts but didn’t make it easier for me if they called. It added to my workload. Not enough to matter but still.
 
Velocity173 said:
And like I said, using FF creates a safer environment but it’s not easier on the controller. If they never talked to you, they’d simply issue a traffic call for the jet traffic on the ILS / GPS and be done. On FF that’s multiple traffic calls.

It’s no different than a VFR transitioning a hot MOA. I used to work our MOAs during activation times. Some VFRs would call for FF while others didn’t. I didn’t care if they called or not. It’s their prerogative if they want to transition a MOA without talking to ATC. Would be safer for them in knowing where there are military aircraft in their area doing 500 + kts but didn’t make it easier for me if they called. It added to my workload. Not enough to matter but still.
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Not disputing or adding to anything you said. Just curious if unidentified traffic in the MOA ever caused a mission to be scrubbed or substantially altered.
 
luvflyin said:
Not disputing or adding to anything you said. Just curious if unidentified traffic in the MOA ever caused a mission to be scrubbed or substantially altered.
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Not that I recall. Our MOAs were designed for an airfield attack though so the altitudes (100-500 ft) typically didn’t conflict with GA. They would all come from the Warning Area, we had some BS phraseology like “cleared into the target area, report off target.” They’d drop down below radar, do a pop up (Air Force) or level lay down (Navy / Marine), then generally fly a low level route (MRR) back out to the Warning Area.

In fact, I was actually doing my PPL training during one of the activations. My CFI never called for FF during my training for some reason. Not long after departure and heading out to the training area, an F-16 banked right in front of us maybe a 1/2 mile away. My CFI commented on how unusual that is. I said he was most likely involved in the MOA activity today. Freaked out my CFI because he had no idea the MOAs were hot and told me to turn back to the airport immediately. “Not allowed to fly in an active MOA!” I stayed quiet. ;)
 
Velocity173 said:
Not that I recall. Our MOAs were designed for an airfield attack though so the altitudes (100-500 ft) typically didn’t conflict with GA. They would all come from the Warning Area, we had some BS phraseology like “cleared into the target area, report off target.” They’d drop down below radar, do a pop up (Air Force) or level lay down (Navy / Marine), then generally fly a low level route (MRR) back out to the Warning Area.

In fact, I was actually doing my PPL training during one of the activations. My CFI never called for FF during my training for some reason. Not long after departure and heading out to the training area, an F-16 banked right in front of us maybe a 1/2 mile away. My CFI commented on how unusual that is. I said he was most likely involved in the MOA activity today. Freaked out my CFI because he had no idea the MOAs were hot and told me to turn back to the airport immediately. “Not allowed to fly in an active MOA!” I stayed quiet. ;)
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Aw, ya coulda told him he hadn't broke the law. Poor guy probably didn't get no sleep that night.
 
I always wanted to be talking to the VFR traffic transiting an active MOA. I always thought it was better to he able to share information among the participating/non-participating aircraft.
 
JonH said:
Just don't be like half the people on youtube and require 6 radio calls to get established.
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I'd suggest the OPs experience would say new pilots should make AS MANY calls to get established as needed and ignore the internet professionals. FF is about safety, and if it takes 7 calls to be safe, be safe.
 
4RNB said:
I'd suggest the OPs experience would say new pilots should make AS MANY calls to get established as needed and ignore the internet professionals. FF is about safety, and if it takes 7 calls to be safe, be safe.
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Yup. Also, it is likely that if the frequency is that busy, there is nearby frequency that can take radar on you and get you in the system.
 
4RNB said:
I'd suggest the OPs experience would say new pilots should make AS MANY calls to get established as needed and ignore the internet professionals. FF is about safety, and if it takes 7 calls to be safe, be safe.
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What I meant was they don't give the information needed by ATC in one call. So ATC has to say what type, where you going, etc etc...
 
JonH said:
What I meant was they don't give the information needed by ATC in one call. So ATC has to say what type, where you going, etc etc...
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And on the flip side of that, I can’t count how many times I’ve heard a long initial call up and ATC didn’t hear anything or only copied part of it. A waste of a long transmission that could have also blocked higher priorities (IFR clearances / instructions).

Get in quick with “XYZ Approach Cessna 12345 VFR request” or even leave out the “VFR request.” If the controller heard the transmission, they’ll get back to ya when they can.
 
This is one thing I really like about training in the Gulfport TRSA, students have to get comfortable on the radio early. The downside is it's a false sense of security training in that environment, so when we go to uncontrolled fields it's usually pretty eye opening.
 
Velocity173 said:
And on the flip side of that, I can’t count how many times I’ve heard a long initial call up and ATC didn’t hear anything or only copied part of it. A waste of a long transmission that could have also blocked higher priorities (IFR clearances / instructions).

Get in quick with “XYZ Approach Cessna 12345 VFR request” or even leave out the “VFR request.” If the controller heard the transmission, they’ll get back to ya when they can.
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Many years ago, local TRACON personnel requested that type of initial callup (without the "VFR request"), so that's what I do. Seems to work well. When they get back to me, then I give them the additional required information.
 
I was under the impression that "request" was helpful so the controller didn't spit out their coffee and start reviewing their strips to say, ".....SHOULD I know who this guy is?". The VFR part is implied.

Regarding MOAs, definitely better to be talking to them. There are times where a vertical block is reserved that's much bigger than they need. If they know what your transit plan is then they can check with the military traffic as to whether that'll work. Speaking up doesn't result in you being forced to divert. I've made the call, learned it was hot and was asked if I could drop or climb by 1-2k to allow the operation to continue. Not a biggie, and I'd much rather know the training ops weren't disrupted by me pulling a Leroy Jenkins into the airspace.
 
coma24 said:
I was under the impression that "request" was helpful so the controller didn't spit out their coffee and start reviewing their strips to say, ".....SHOULD I know who this guy is?". The VFR part is implied.
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This is only an observation, but since the widespread use of ADS-B that doesn't seem to be as bad anymore. I've called up for FF recently "Center, N12345" and had them respond, "N12345 are you off XYZ climbing through 4500?" I've also never been asked my aircraft type since installing ADS-B. I'm assuming its because ATC now has access to all of that information.
 
midwestpa24 said:
This is only an observation, but since the widespread use of ADS-B that doesn't seem to be as bad anymore. I've called up for FF recently "Center, N12345" and had them respond, "N12345 are you off XYZ climbing through 4500?" I've also never been asked my aircraft type since installing ADS-B. I'm assuming its because ATC now has access to all of that information.
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Glad to hear that's been the case for you. N90 (NY approach) still asks me for aircraft type every single time if I'm VFR. That said, their equipment is from the Eisenhower administration, soooo.....
 
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