Flight following and Class Charlie airspace

[GSDpilot]

Yesterday, I flew VFR from KMKC (Downtown Kansas City (in Class D, under KMCI Class B airspace)) to KMLE (Millard, NE), which is just outside of Omaha's Class C airspace. I would need to breach the Class C, if I was going direct, or navigate around it.

I get flight following when I leave KMKC, and they clear me through the KMCI Class B airspace to go directly north. When I am approaching Omaha's Class C, they do not ever directly say I am clear through the Class C airspace. I navigate around it, but am I clear if I am on VFR flight following or do they have to say specifically that I am clear through it?

 

[luvflyin]

Yesterday, I flew VFR from KMKC (Downtown Kansas City (in Class D, under KMCI Class B airspace)) to KMLE (Millard, NE), which is just outside of Omaha's Class C airspace. I would need to breach the Class C, if I was going direct, or navigate around it.

I get flight following when I leave KMKC, and they clear me through the KMCI Class B airspace to go directly north. When I am approaching Omaha's Class C, they do not ever directly say I am clear through the Class C airspace. I navigate around it, but am I clear if I am on VFR flight following or do they have to say specifically that I am clear through it?

They do not. You have established two way radio communication with them. That is all that is required.

 

[RyanB]

They do not. You have established two way radio communication with them. That is all that is required.

Class C doesn’t require a clearance like Class B does, just establish two-way (like you did) and you’re good to go. They’ll give you a heading to fly if needed.

 

[Brad Z]

Yesterday, I flew VFR from KMKC (Downtown Kansas City (in Class D, under KMCI Class B airspace)) to KMLE (Millard, NE), which is just outside of Omaha's Class C airspace. I would need to breach the Class C, if I was going direct, or navigate around it.

I get flight following when I leave KMKC, and they clear me through the KMCI Class B airspace to go directly north. When I am approaching Omaha's Class C, they do not ever directly say I am clear through the Class C airspace. I navigate around it, but am I clear if I am on VFR flight following or do they have to say specifically that I am clear through it?

Notice the difference between 91.130(c) and 91.131(a)(1). Class B requires a clearance for all aircraft, VFR included, whereas class C (and D & E for that matter) do not.

 

[Shawn]

Approach is a facility that provides air traffic services to Charlie airspace. If you are on Flight Following and it is part of your expected path for an airspace transition you meet the authorization requirements to enter (absent any other instructions otherwise). You are free to fly wherever you want in and through Charlie, if they want you somewhere else they will provide instructions.

 

[Lardog]

The above answers are correct, with the following caveat... If ATC tells you to remain clear of the "Charlie", you then do NOT have clearance. This can often be the case at busy class C's.

 

[Lindberg]

The above answers are correct, with the following caveat... If ATC tells you to remain clear of the "Charlie", you then do NOT have clearance. This can often be the case at busy class C's.

Close, but misleading. You don't need clearance to enter class C. However, "Remain clear of the class C," is an ATC instruction, and you're required to follow ATC instructions in controlled airspace. So if you're affirmatively told to stay out you must stay out until told otherwise. But that's not a clearance, it's an instruction, and the followup will be an instruction as well.

 

[GSDpilot]

Class C doesn’t require a clearance like Class B does, just establish two-way (like you did) and you’re good to go. They’ll give you a heading to fly if needed.

So on the return trip through the Class B, I would need them to specifically say I am cleared through the Bravo?

 

[RyanB]

So on the return trip through the Class B, I would need them to specifically say I am cleared through the Bravo?

Yup.

 

[Ravioli]

There's a video out there about "Cleared for the Bravo" or "The magic words". Something like that. It'll probably clean this up for you @GSDpilot

 

[midlifeflyer]

So on the return trip through the Class B, I would need them to specifically say I am cleared through the Bravo?

Yes. Any time you are VFR and not in the Bravo and are going to enter it, you want to hear those magic words. Even if it's the same flight, if you exit the Bravo for some reason and want to come back in, you want to hear it again.

That's any time. People always talk about exceptions where the clearance is implicit. There is no such thing. There are going to be situations where it seems obvious and the odds are probably in your favor that the intent was to clear you, but notice I said "seems" obvious and the odds are "probably" in your favor. Personally, I like the odds much better when, in those so-called implicit clearance situations, I say "confirm cleared into Class Bravo."

Consider this when people talk about the VFR Class B clearance being implied. if you are on the the ground at the Class B primary airport and you call Clearance Delivery for VFR departure instructions, it will include "Cleared into Class Class Bravo" even though you are on the ground in the Class B.

 

[WDD]

If IFR vs the OP VFR I assume you don’t have to hear those magic words to enter Bravo.

 

[Charlie Golf]

Here's how to handle Bravo....

Skip ahead to 12:15

 

[midlifeflyer]

If IFR vs the OP VFR I assume you don’t have to hear those magic words to enter Bravo.

Not good to assume, but you are correct.

Basically, when you are IFR you are on a clearance. You are already "cleared" on the route you are instructed to follow.

 

[WDD]

To the OP - over communicating here a bit. If you ever land in a Charlie airport under FF you probably are going to leave at some time LOL.

Leaving a Charlie airport requires you get clearance / approval / mother may I by Clearance Delivery (and I hope the guy’s name is not Clarence) and a squawk code before you taxi. Then you talk to Ground, Tower, and then Approach.

When talking to Clearance ask them to set up flight following for you if they can at same time while you’re still in the ground. Then you’re all set.

EDITED to Clearance Delivery vs Clearance.

 

[midlifeflyer]

To the OP - over communicating here a bit. If you ever land in a Charlie airport under FF you probably are going to leave at some time LOL.

Leaving a Charlie airport requires you get clearance by Clearance (and I hope the guy’s name is not Clarence) and a squawk code before you taxi. Then you talk to Ground, Tower, and then Approach.

When talking to Clearance ask them to set up flight following for you if they can at same time while you’re still in the ground. Then you’re all set.

Except it's still not called a "clearance." You will not hear the word "cleared" from ATC associated with your departure instructions (unless, of course, the controller made a mistake).

I know that and similar comments about the use of the work "clearance" about Class C sound a little like the language police. But there's a point to it. The confusion between Class C and Class B requirements is pretty widespread. The one and only difference between the two for VFR operations is Class B requires a clearance; Class C does not. So, FWIW, calling things which are not clearances "clearances" does nothing to help the confusion and in fact adds to it..

 

[Larry in TN]

I say "confirm cleared into Class Bravo."

I like your phraseology. I try to avoid asking questions on the radio whenever possible as a statement leaves less room for miscomunication.

"Confirm Bravo clearance", "Confirm landing clearance", "Request further clearance", "Reqeust EFC time", etc.

Leaving a Charlie airport requires you get clearance by Clearance

That's generally true in practice but there's no regulatory requirement for a clearance to depart from a CCA airport. Most CCA facilities will likely require a PDC under most situations (maybe not at 3am when one controller is working all positions) but that shouldn't be confused with a blanket requirement such as the CBA clearance requirement.

 

[Ravioli]

@WDD is partially correctly.

Even a busy Delta will want you to do all your requests on Clearance.
Lazy Charlies won't bother with a squawk, and it would be odd that you would be required to taxi with a code, since we were supposed to have our transponders on STBY while taxiing. May be different now in the ADS-B era.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

@WDD is partially correctly.

Even a busy Delta will want you to do all your requests on Clearance.
Lazy Charlies won't bother with a squawk, and it would be odd that you would be required to taxi with a code, since we were supposed to have our transponders on STBY while taxiing. May be different now in the ADS-B era.

I thought the requirement for transponders remaining on standby was changed some years ago? Or is that the case where you fly?
I though they were to be in altitude reporting mode while in the movement areas as per documents such as this:
https://www.faa.gov/other_visit/avi...afety/safo/all_safos/media/2015/safo15006.pdf

What am I not understanding?

 

[Ravioli]

Good point about the mode of the txpndr.

But, do you need a code to taxi with and depart a Charlie? If you tell Clarence you're going to depart south will they give you a code, and then when you're clear the tower gets to say "Bug Destroyer 666, frequency change approved, squawk VFR, Good day"? OR do they not bother giving a code that no one else will need?

 

[RyanB]

But, do you need a code to taxi with and depart a Charlie?

Yes they will give you a code.

 

[midlifeflyer]

@WDD is partially correctly.

Even a busy Delta will want you to do all your requests on Clearance Delivery.

FIFY.

What we call "Tower," "Ground," and "Clearance Delivery" are just division of labor. At a busy D and most Cs, They are just reserving Tower for the runways, Ground for the taxiways, and CD for pre-taxi communications.

 

[Ravioli]

Yes they will give you a code.

And that is your definitive answer everywhere, for every flight that will not be talking to any other facility, and the pilot will be required to squawk a code for only the time they taxi until they are clear of the C.

Also, when does this need to squawk a code end? Do you stay on the code after landing in a Charlie all the way to parking, or do you go 1200 when clear of the runway.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Also, you when does this need to squawk a code end? Do you stay on the code after landing in a Charlie all the way to parking, or do you go 1200 when clear of the runway.

Interesting question. I never even thought of bothering to change a code until shut down, VFR or IFR, unless asked to. But if I thought about it I wouldn't until clear of all movement areas.

 

[RyanB]

And that is your definitive answer everywhere, for every flight that will not be talking to any other facility, and the pilot will be required to squawk a code for only the time they taxi until they are clear of the C.

Also, when does this need to squawk a code end? Do you stay on the code after landing in a Charlie all the way to parking, or do you go 1200 when clear of the runway.

If you depart a C, they will issue a code on the ground prior to taxi, so yes, that is my definitive answer everywhere. You will keep that code until you (a) depart the airspace and request frequency change or (b) are handed off to the next controlling facility where they may or may not give you a new code.

 

[Brad Z]

@WDD is partially correctly.

Even a busy Delta will want you to do all your requests on Clearance.
Lazy Charlies won't bother with a squawk, and it would be odd that you would be required to taxi with a code, since we were supposed to have our transponders on STBY while taxiing. May be different now in the ADS-B era.

Wait...what class Charlie airports will launch VFRs without a squawk code? Radar participation is mandatory, so unless you have pre-coordination with ATC or in an ATC LOA, you get a code for departure, sometimes just a local code if they expect to drop you before having to handoff to another facility.

Sounds like you're describing many class D airports.

 

[WDD]

I’ve never been taught / heard of a transponder not pinging a code prior to wheels moving. I believe the pre taxi checklist even makes sure you are set at 1200. I’ve never touched a switch to Standby. Is it even needed anymore ?

I’ve never been taught or heard of wheels moving before getting all set with clearance delivery in class C airport.

 

[WDD]

FIFY.

What we call "Tower," "Ground," and "Clearance Delivery" are just division of labor. At a busy D and most Cs, They are just reserving Tower for the runways, Ground for the taxiways, and CD for pre-taxi communications.

I’m just glad it’s not called “Deliverance”.

 

[iamtheari]

I’m just glad it’s not called “Deliverance”.

It will be the next time I fly.

 

[WDD]

It will be the next time I fly.

 

[guzziguy]

To answer the OP's original question:
Your situation was the exact situation I encountered while in flight.
On FF, about to cross into Class C. Out of an abundance of caution, I orbited before entering C and confirmed I was "cleared through." The controller confirmed for me at that moment that because we were already in communication, I was already authorized to transition C (notice he did not use the word "cleared through C"). This event was definitely a learning/reminding experience for me. I can completely commiserate with the OP for his question: it just seemed unnatural to simply cruise right through C without specifically asking first.

 

[Cap'n Jack]

I’ve never been taught / heard of a transponder not pinging a code prior to wheels moving. I believe the pre taxi checklist even makes sure you are set at 1200. I’ve never touched a switch to Standby. Is it even needed anymore ?

I’ve never been taught or heard of wheels moving before getting all set with clearance delivery in class C airport.

The transponder is supposed to be altitude reporting mode on the ground since 2015 (see my earlier post for a reference). We were advised to start in altitude reporting a few years before that time. There was a time when transponders were generally set the "standby" until ready to depart, sometime prior to 2013 (https://www.flyingmag.com/technique/tip-week/use-correct-transponder-mode/ ). Depending on when you started flying, you may not know of the old procedures
ATC may ask you to stop altitude squawk if the altitude report seems incorrect to them.

 

[WDD]

My initial training was in 2018 at an airport right next to a C airport. It’s been burned into me to Stay Clear of Charlie so much I think I will always ask LOL.

 

[Lindberg]

And also, there's no Bravo or Charlie airspace, but there is B and C airspace.

 

[dmspilot]

The transponder is supposed to be altitude reporting mode on the ground since 2015.

Earlier than that, the SAFO may be from 2015, but the change in the AIM was much earlier.

"Civil and military transponders should be adjusted to the “on” or normal operating position as soon as practical and remain on during all operations..." AIM 4-1-20 effective August 25, 2011.

This was clarified a short while later with more specific wording:

"Civil and military transponders should be turned to the “on” or normal altitude reporting position prior to moving on the airport surface..." AIM 4-1-20 effective February 9, 2012.

So it's been a decade since the change in transponder SOP.

 

[tspear]

@dmspilot

I always thought that was very bad advice. It causes a lot of traffic alerts for aircraft in the pattern. Not that my opinion matters to the FAA

Tim

 

[WDD]

And also, there's no Bravo or Charlie airspace, but there is B and C airspace.

I’ll tell that to ATC next time they say Bravo or Charlie airspace. I’ll let him/her know he/ she is saying it wrong.

 

[NoHeat]

If ATC tells you to remain clear of the "Charlie", you then do NOT have clearance. This can often be the case at busy class C's.

That has happened to me as I neared several class C airspaces, including KOMA Omaha, NE — the same one mentioned by the OP, on a particularly busy day.

The phraseology usually avoids saying your tail number, like this: “VFR aircraft calling, remain clear of Class Bravo.” Except at KOMA the controller added “I don’t have time for you”.

 

[Lindberg]

I’ll tell that to ATC next time they say Bravo or Charlie airspace. I’ll let him/her know he/ she is saying it wrong.

"Bravo" is the correct way to pronounce "B" when speaking on the radio.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I like your phraseology. I try to avoid asking questions on the radio whenever possible as a statement leaves less room for miscomunication.

"Confirm Bravo clearance", "Confirm landing clearance", "Request further clearance", "Reqeust EFC time", etc.

My favorite responses were in two "implied clearance" situations.

One was a practice instrument approach (under VFR) near Denver. "Oh yeah, I guess I have to say it. Cleared into the Class Bravo."

The other (which I've written about before) was a group fly-in into the Charlotte primary. Yep, we were being vectored to land at CLT but I did it anyway.
"[Audible sigh] Everyone I am talking to is cleared into the Class Bravo."