Flight following and Class Charlie airspace

[Larry in TN]

Was I in violation?

No. Specific Class B Airspace (CBA) clearances are only required for VFR aircraft. The IFR clearance serves as the CBA clearance for IFR traffic.

ATC doesn't give separate CBA clearances to IFR aircraft. I fly 737s in and out of CBAs all the time am only aware of them to the point of ensuring that I don't operate below the floor of CBA when cleared for a visual approach. ATC never mentions anything about the CBA in our clearance.

 

[Papa Pilot]

91.130(c)(1) says (in regards to Charlie airspace) "Each person must establish two-way radio communication with the ATC facility providing air traffic services prior to entering that airspace and thereafter maintain those communications while within that airspace."

No surprises here, we all know this.

Where I think the confusion lies with the OP (and perhaps others) is what ATC? What exactly does the phase "ATC facility providing air traffic services" mean"? I think there is a assumption communications needs to be established with the facility at the center of Charlie airspace.

But is this really the case in the OP's scenario? IMHO, no. OP was on FF and was already talking to the "ATC facility providing air traffic services". So, OP could enter Charlie airspace at will, unless, as pointed out by others, FF (i.e., the "ATC facility providing air traffic services") instructed OP to remain clear.

If OP was not on FF, then the "ATC facility providing air traffic services" would be the facility at the center of Charlie airspace.

 

[Ed Haywood]

The transponder is supposed to be altitude reporting mode on the ground since 2015 (see my earlier post for a reference). We were advised to start in altitude reporting a few years before that time. There was a time when transponders were generally set the "standby" until ready to depart, sometime prior to 2013 (https://www.flyingmag.com/technique/tip-week/use-correct-transponder-mode/ ). Depending on when you started flying, you may not know of the old procedures
ATC may ask you to stop altitude squawk if the altitude report seems incorrect to them.

I'm guessing they got tired of thousands of us forgetting to switch from SBY to ALT before takeoff, not because they want/need pings on the ground.

My GTX-335 has automatic ground mode and switches between SBY and ALT internally, so AFAIK it is not responding during taxi.

 

[The-Flying-Lawyer]

If an ATC controller clears you into the Bravo with instructions to stay under it, have you been cleared into the Bravo? This happened to me on a recent flight from KFCM (Flying Cloud, MN) to KMLE. I think we should call it the Yogi Berra Bravo clearance.

 

[tspear]

If an ATC controller clears you into the Bravo with instructions to stay under it, have you been cleared into the Bravo? This happened to me on a recent flight from KFCM (Flying Cloud, MN) to KMLE. I think we should call it the Yogi Berra Bravo clearance.

I have been cleared into Bravo for descent to XXX. Once at that altitude, I am below the bravo, and I am no longer cleared back in.

Tim

 

[Sluggo63]

Note the “...out of Bravo...”

7−9−2. VFR AIRCRAFT IN CLASS B AIRSPACE
a. VFR aircraft must obtain an ATC clearance to operate in Class B airspace.
CLEARED THROUGH/TO ENTER/OUT OF BRAVO AIRSPACE,

Looks like everyone glossed over your post, but I'm going to re-highlight this.

A long (loonngg...) time ago when I was studying for something (PPL), I read this paragraph in the AIM (emphasis are mine):

VFR Flights.

2. Departing aircraft require a clearance to depart Class B airspace and should advise the clearance delivery position of their intended altitude and route of flight. ATC will normally advise VFR aircraft when leaving the geographical limits of the Class B airspace. Radar service is not automatically terminated with this advisory unless specifically stated by the controller.
​

In my young misreading of this paragraph, I took it to mean that you needed to be cleared into and out of Class B airspace. Now that I reread it 30 years later, I don't think it means what I thought it did. That second part about advising CD makes it sounds like this is only applicable on the ground and departing an airfield in the Class B itself. I'm sure there were a number of New York controllers that rolled their eyes when I was coming up on the lateral confines of the Class B and called them to confirm that I was cleared out of the B. There no need for the exit clearance if you are just transiting. Am I reading that correctly? I'm basing this on the fact that the next paragraph says:

3. Aircraft not landing or departing the primary airport may obtain an ATC clearance to transit the Class B airspace when traffic conditions permit and provided the requirements of 14 CFR Section 91.131 are met. Such VFR aircraft are encouraged, to the extent possible, to operate at altitudes above or below the Class B airspace or transit through established VFR corridors. Pilots operating in VFR corridors are urged to use frequency 122.750 MHz for the exchange of aircraft position information.​

 

[Lindberg]

If an ATC controller clears you into the Bravo with instructions to stay under it, have you been cleared into the Bravo?

Yes. I've had that happen several times where they might give me a later instruction that takes me into the Class B airspace.

 

[The-Flying-Lawyer]

I have been cleared into Bravo for descent to XXX. Once at that altitude, I am below the bravo, and I am no longer cleared back in.

Tim

I've had that happen too, but in this case I took off below the Bravo and stayed under the shelf (as instructed) until I was completely clear of it. I never entered (and was never cleared to enter).

 

[denverpilot]

My GTX-335 has automatic ground mode and switches between SBY and ALT internally, so AFAIK it is not responding during taxi.

Pretty sure Garmin has released firmware updates for all of their transponders to kill that “feature” they came up with in light of current guidance that’s been the norm for years now not to turn off the transponder.

AFAIK they don’t consider it a mandatory update since you can manually override it, and even if the firmware is free, the labor to install it and print and collate the AFM changes isn’t.

So most people ignore them. Shrug.

 

[luvflyin]

Looks like everyone glossed over your post, but I'm going to re-highlight this.

A long (loonngg...) time ago when I was studying for something (PPL), I read this paragraph in the AIM (emphasis are mine):

VFR Flights.

2. Departing aircraft require a clearance to depart Class B airspace and should advise the clearance delivery position of their intended altitude and route of flight. ATC will normally advise VFR aircraft when leaving the geographical limits of the Class B airspace. Radar service is not automatically terminated with this advisory unless specifically stated by the controller.
​

In my young misreading of this paragraph, I took it to mean that you needed to be cleared into and out of Class B airspace. Now that I reread it 30 years later, I don't think it means what I thought it did. That second part about advising CD makes it sounds like this is only applicable on the ground and departing an airfield in the Class B itself. I'm sure there were a number of New York controllers that rolled their eyes when I was coming up on the lateral confines of the Class B and called them to confirm that I was cleared out of the B. There no need for the exit clearance if you are just transiting. Am I reading that correctly? I'm basing this on the fact that the next paragraph says:

3. Aircraft not landing or departing the primary airport may obtain an ATC clearance to transit the Class B airspace when traffic conditions permit and provided the requirements of 14 CFR Section 91.131 are met. Such VFR aircraft are encouraged, to the extent possible, to operate at altitudes above or below the Class B airspace or transit through established VFR corridors. Pilots operating in VFR corridors are urged to use frequency 122.750 MHz for the exchange of aircraft position information.​

I’d have to go back up and see what post I replied to when I posted that excerpt from the Controllers handbook, the 7110.65. Probably some one had said something about do you need to get cleared into it first before you can get cleared out of it from an airport in the Surface Area. Cleared ‘out of’ from an airport in the Surface Area would cover this by default. We could get silly and say everything but the contact patch of your tires are already in it. As far as you asking to confirm being cleared out after you had already been cleared ‘through’, yeah, I can imagine an eye roll, maybe even a snarky comment. Do you remember any? I can also imagine them having a little fun. Ernie says,“Hey Bert, get a load of this guy, he thinks he needs to be cleared out of the Bravo before can leave.” Then Bert says, “don’t clear him out, we’ll hold him hostage and get a ransom. Get his Credit Card number.”

 

[Ed Haywood]

Pretty sure Garmin has released firmware updates for all of their transponders to kill that “feature”

They might want to give their marketing department a heads up then, since "Automatic ALT/GND mode" is still on their website in the product specs for the 335/345.

 

[WDD]

What if you taxied from a bravo airport on the interstate?

 

[Sluggo63]

I’d have to go back up and see what post I replied to when I posted that excerpt from the Controllers handbook, the 7110.65. Probably some one had said something about do you need to get cleared into it first before you can get cleared out of it from an airport in the Surface Area. Cleared ‘out of’ from an airport in the Surface Area would cover this by default. We could get silly and say everything but the contact patch of your tires are already in it. As far as you asking to confirm being cleared out after you had already been cleared ‘through’, yeah, I can imagine an eye roll, maybe even a snarky comment. Do you remember any? I can also imagine them having a little fun. Ernie says,“Hey Bert, get a load of this guy, he thinks he needs to be cleared out of the Bravo before can leave.” Then Bert says, “don’t clear him out, we’ll hold him hostage and get a ransom. Get his Credit Card number.”

No, even for New Yorkers there wasn't any snark. Maybe it was my Jersey accent.

They were always very nice. "Confirm N40JA is cleared to exit the Class Bravo."

"N40JA, you're cleared out of the Class Bravo..."

I did always wonder what would happen if I just blasted out without clearance. Seemed like a silly rule. Now I know why...

 

[Palmpilot]

Pretty sure Garmin has released firmware updates for all of their transponders to kill that “feature” they came up with in light of current guidance that’s been the norm for years now not to turn off the transponder.

AFAIK they don’t consider it a mandatory update since you can manually override it, and even if the firmware is free, the labor to install it and print and collate the AFM changes isn’t.

So most people ignore them. Shrug.

I'm guessing that the planes I fly don't usually go to the airports that have the equipment to benefit from ground use of the transponder. Most of the ones that have Garmin transponders don't seem to have that update.

 

[Palmpilot]

Looks like everyone glossed over your post, but I'm going to re-highlight this.

A long (loonngg...) time ago when I was studying for something (PPL), I read this paragraph in the AIM (emphasis are mine):

VFR Flights.

2. Departing aircraft require a clearance to depart Class B airspace and should advise the clearance delivery position of their intended altitude and route of flight. ATC will normally advise VFR aircraft when leaving the geographical limits of the Class B airspace. Radar service is not automatically terminated with this advisory unless specifically stated by the controller.
​

In my young misreading of this paragraph, I took it to mean that you needed to be cleared into and out of Class B airspace. Now that I reread it 30 years later, I don't think it means what I thought it did. That second part about advising CD makes it sounds like this is only applicable on the ground and departing an airfield in the Class B itself. I'm sure there were a number of New York controllers that rolled their eyes when I was coming up on the lateral confines of the Class B and called them to confirm that I was cleared out of the B. There no need for the exit clearance if you are just transiting. Am I reading that correctly? I'm basing this on the fact that the next paragraph says:

3. Aircraft not landing or departing the primary airport may obtain an ATC clearance to transit the Class B airspace when traffic conditions permit and provided the requirements of 14 CFR Section 91.131 are met. Such VFR aircraft are encouraged, to the extent possible, to operate at altitudes above or below the Class B airspace or transit through established VFR corridors. Pilots operating in VFR corridors are urged to use frequency 122.750 MHz for the exchange of aircraft position information.​

Whenever I'm tempted to roll my eyes at someone's misconception of the rules, I have to remind myself that I have been guilty of much worse!

 

[dmspilot]

They might want to give their marketing department a heads up then, since "Automatic ALT/GND mode" is still on their website in the product specs for the 335/345.

The manual clearly states GND mode is no longer available.

 

[denverpilot]

The manual clearly states GND mode is no longer available.

The latest ones do. The old ones in airplanes with the old firmware don’t have that change yet.

That’s why the avionics shop gets $90/hr. Flashing is free. The realm of paper is expensive. Haha.