Flew through a TFR.

Ryan F. said:
When you poke a hole inside the 10nm ring the odds of Administrative Action diminish rather sharply.
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Can you clarify this statement? It seems counterintuitive to me. I’m not sure if it was a mistake or if I’m just missing something.

I think you believe there are only two options that can occur, administrative and enforcement. So, I think, what you are really saying is that the odds of an enforcement action increase rather sharply.
 
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Salty said:
Can you clarify this statement? It seems counterintuitive to me. I’m not sure if it was a mistake or if I’m just missing something.
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"Administrative Action" refers to a group of FAA dispositions which have lower consequences, such as warning notices and letters of correction, and have no effect in your pilot certificate. They are also expunged in two years (expungement doesn't mean quite t

If you want to think in terms of a sequence of increasing seriousness, it's No Action, Compliance Action, Administrative Action, Enforcement Action. It's not until we get to Enforcement Action that certificate suspensions and revocations come into play and there are effects in your pilot certificate.

So, the more serious the incursion, the less likely Administrative Action and the more likely Enforcement Action.

This is from a program I did when the Compliance Philosophy was new...
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midlifeflyer said:
"Administrative Action" refers to a group of FAA dispositions which have lower consequences, such as warning letters, and have no effect in your pilot certificate.

If you want to think in terms of a sequence of increasing seriousness, it's No Action, Compliance Action, Administrative Action, Enforcement Action. It's not until we get to Enforcement Action that certificate suspensions and revocations come into play and there are effects in your pilot certificate.
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Yes, but the way he phrased it could sound like no action at all is more likely if you go into the inner area.
 
Salty said:
Yes, but the way he phrased it could sound like no action at all is more likely if you go into the inner area.
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Poor choice of phrasing on my part.

Mark Kolber's interpretation is correct. My intent was to explain that there can be a difference in how an individual incursion of a VIP TFR is handled based on whether the inner core, vs. outer core, was penetrated. There's no hard and fast rule I'm aware of; it's just my own empirical experience working RTs; but once a pilot penetrates the 10nm ring the odds of a "lesser action" being an option begin to diminish. In other words, the closer you get to the center of the ring, the worse the consequences tend to be -- all things being equal. And they're often not equal.

There's a lot of discretion available to individual field offices as well as the ASI handling the case.
 
Gerhardt said:
Shout out for RyanF. That was incredibly kind of you to walk him (all of us, really) through what to expect, from someone who knows.
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You are welcome.
 
I sense the OP would like to hear from them soon to know his fate. I was wondering if the time for them to respond tells him something.

For example, if he busted the TFR, was escorted by fighters and met my Secret Service I would think he would have already had a suspension or more just to keep him flying.

So the question is...does the type of action they will take show itself in the amount of time it takes for them to respond?

Or maybe everyone is given the exact same process, which right now is backed up 3-5wks. But that would be weird as some violations must warrant immediate actions to keep them from flying.

Also, this seemingly approx 1 month offset from violation to action does give a chance for a second violation since you can still fly during this period.
 
Sinistar said:
I sense the OP would like to hear from them soon to know his fate. I was wondering if the time for them to respond tells him something.

For example, if he busted the TFR, was escorted by fighters and met my Secret Service I would think he would have already had a suspension or more just to keep him flying.

So the question is...does the type of action they will take show itself in the amount of time it takes for them to respond?

Or maybe everyone is given the exact same process, which right now is backed up 3-5wks. But that would be weird as some violations must warrant immediate actions to keep them from flying.

Also, this seemingly approx 1 month offset from violation to action does give a chance for a second violation since you can still fly during this period.
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Too little information provided by Anthony to know for sure. But in my experience -- and again, I must stress this is only my personal opinion based on my direct involvement in this process -- you have a number at the deli and how busy they are behind the counter determines how long it will take for your sandwich.

To look at a rather extreme example, remember the May 11, 2005 flight in which a C-150 flew harrowingly close to Capitol Hill below 3000' AGL? 10 days after the incident, the FAA initiated an emergency revocation of the PIC's private pilot certificate. That's an example of one of the most severe possible responses at a pretty good clip of speed.

The typical VIP TFR incursion is usually outer core, often times transiting near the edge of the ring, and there are usually quite a few of them each and every time a TFR goes active. It takes awhile for the field office to work through its list.
 
Ryan F. said:
Too little information provided by Anthony to know for sure. But in my experience -- and again, I must stress this is only my personal opinion based on my direct involvement in this process -- you have a number at the deli and how busy they are behind the counter determines how long it will take for your sandwich.
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Agreed, although I think there are two factors. One is, of course, timing. Your number at the deli as you said, but also the ASI workload. The other is how serious the incursion is. You've apparently see a few weeks. I've seen as little as a few days during the last presidential campaign period.
 
I would say if this was a parent that was trying to make you think and punish you by waiting (and therefore making you agonize about being punished), it would be logical for the FAA to not contact you quickly.

You are dealing with the FAA. They are just slow.

The OP filed the NASA. The OP should take some AOPA online courses, FAAST online courses, and any other online accredited courses. By doing that, when the FAA person contact the OP, the mea culpa will already be apparent. Doing courses before the OP is contacted show that the OP is serious about being a compliant pilot.

My 709 ride was a well thought out process that the examiner did not want to do. He had never been in a Bonanza and was not confident enough to be PIC if something went array. I laid out my experience land that he was legal to be PIC in that class and category of aircraft. We took off and the VFR moved to IFR. After the flight, he even asked about moving into a Bonanza as it flew better and easier than he expected.

The FAA personel are human. The OP will continue to fly unless the OP should not be flying in the first place.
 
An update for everyone.. Almost 3 months later now and I have not heard a thing. Maybe the recent government shutdown has played a role in their delayed respone??? or maybe I got lucky and have flown under the radar??? No pun intended lol
 
I think the FAA has 6 months to start an investigation, but I am not real sure if that is set in concrete because if they can show good cause for a delay, like a government shut down, they can start an investigation at a later date. The clock usually starts when the FAA officially learns of the alleged incident.

Maybe the shutdown created a huge back log and someone with common sense decided to throw out the lesser incidents to make room for the bigger fish...

Good luck, buddy. We are all pulling for ya...

:popcorn:
 
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Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
How does what happen? If you bust a stadium TFR, then it's on you because LocMart told you that they can't tell you one way or the udder and it's up to you to check the MLB, NLF, Nascar, NCAA, whatever schedules and be aware of any overtime or game delays. It's on you, not LocMart, not the FAA, you.
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Nobody is going to notice unless you’re buzzing and circling the stadium.
 
texasag93 said:
The OP will continue to fly unless the OP should not be flying in the first place.
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Not to be an asshat here, but I went to an FAA Wings course this past week... just about everyone, and I mean everyone in the room had an iPad and Foreflight... Forflight will let you know of the TFR's... just saying....

I wish the OP the best of luck with this one..
 
Hope you are in the clear!!! But that would mean you slipped through the cracks. If they truly scrambled fighters then there has to be a bunch of paperwork that has to get written on I imagine. like others posted. Probably going to be some ground school sign off. Nothing bad.
 
Maybe it’s ADSB, but when I cross the boundary by only ~1nm (I went back and checked after the flight), I got the call on landing that I had a possible pilot violation. And was called by FAA several days later.
So for those thinking of being ADSB equipped...might think again.


Tom
 
MooneyDriver78 said:
Maybe it’s ADSB, but when I cross the boundary by only ~1nm (I went back and checked after the flight), I got the call on landing that I had a possible pilot violation. And was called by FAA several days later.
So for those thinking of being ADSB equipped...might think again.


Tom
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Wait... So your cautioning against equipping ADSB is that you willfully and knowingly violated a TFR and the ADSB got you caught?

What?
 
ircphoenix said:
Wait... So your cautioning against equipping ADSB is that you willfully and knowingly violated a TFR and the ADSB got you caught?

What?
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"Willfully and knowingly" is quite a leap from what he actually said. It sounded more "accidental" to me, and only one time (since he said "the flight" and "the call").
 
JOhnH said:
"Willfully and knowingly" is quite a leap from what he actually said. It sounded more "accidental" to me, and only one time (since he said "the flight" and "the call").
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The ADSB comment was meant to be sarcastic, and your reading comprehension is excellent. I sometimes forget the emojis.


Tom
 
AnthonyS1 said:
An update for everyone.. Almost 3 months later now and I have not heard a thing. Maybe the recent government shutdown has played a role in their delayed respone??? or maybe I got lucky and have flown under the radar??? No pun intended lol
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You busted a TFR...the last thing I would do is assume they're letting this slide. Definitely likely that the govt shutdown has delayed this out, perhaps several weeks.

Also you indicate almost 3 months. Your first post was December 8th, January 8th is 1 month, Feb 8th was just the other day for 2 months. My first call from them was darn close to 2 months (no shutdown).

You are far better off going with the assumption that you will get the call. So be prepared for what might happen. Have your pilot AND aircraft logs in absolute perfect condition. Study and know every type of TFR, which ones are issued vs standing, etc. Know every possible way you can find out about TFRs. I would meet with a CFI (not sure if it should be your friendly go-to guy or 3rd party) and get instruction on airspace rules in general and TFRS specifically. I would also have a very solid new plan on how you've changed your pre flight planning, etc. Then do a couple flights with a CFI using the revised approach.

Be MEGA proactive while you still have time. Just think, what if 3 or 4 of the things you do are what they will ask you to do...worst case you repeat it. Best case, they drop a few things.

I think your worst case is some type of license action. But maybe how it could play out is a ride with a FAA examiner. There's a good chance you would fail that ride and then need more retraining. This is happening to a pilot I met about 2 months ago. I am pretty sure his attitude isn't helping. He was to macho/conftontational. You on the other hand seem more hopeful/afraid. Neither will help your case.

Find a instructor now. Work up a plan. Execute it. Tell your mechanic the FAA might scour your aircraft logs, maybe that heads up will save his arse.
 
midlifeflyer said:
This is the primary reason for a worst case scenario.
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Exactly! The first time I met him you could just hear the almost "F you" level attitude. When I heard later he failed the ride with a FAA examiner (and not one from our FSDO) and there was talk of a license action...I was not one bit surprised!
 
AnthonyS1 said:
Yes. Looking for a Bonanza now.
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Well, if you do get a call from the FSDO (obviously I think you will), that may be one less "compliance' area to worry about. I know of 3 people now that, as part of a PD, had to bring in aircraft logs. But in your case you sold it. So maybe all you should do is have 100% FAA worthy proof of the sale, who has it now, etc. Maybe as part of their research they noticed a sale of your N-Number and that slowed things down a bit?
 
Velocity173 said:
You’re not going to jail, paying any fines or getting your PPL revoked. With the FAAs compliance philosophy, you’ll at most get a 30 day suspension for a first time inadvertent TFR bust. Your situation doesn’t qualify but hopefully you’ll just get remedial training.
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Just make sure you don't bust any TFRs during your 30-day suspension.
 
TFR was only an hour and a half long?

"I goofed up on local vs. Zulu."
 
I still have not heard a thing from the FAA about this. I'm shocked they havent called me yet.
 
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