Flew for lunch...watched an accident.

[Diana]

I flew for lunch the other day. Kim flew down and I flew up to Miami County to meet up for lunch. It was a beautiful day to fly and the wind was right down the grass runway at Miami County. I was on a 75-mile final for Runway 33 when I departed the farm. You could smell the BBQ taxiing up to the ramp at K81.

Jason and Jesse flew in too, and we had a good visit while we ate BBQ and onion rings. I ate a lot of Jason's french fries.

Kim and I sat on the picnic table outside the restaurant and continued visiting while we waited for J & J to take off. An RV kept coming in to land on Runway 3, and I figured he was just practicing touch and goes for whatever reason. Well, the third time inbound, he touched down near the ramp, lost control of the airplane in the crosswind, tires were screeching, and then he nosed over and it looked like he was going to flip over as he careened down the runway on his nose. He had a lot of energy when he touched down. As we headed over to the runway to see if he was alright, he and his dad climbed out of the airplane. Fortunately, neither one of them was hurt. Evidently, he wasn't doing touch and goes the first two times...he was trying to land in that crosswind and didn't like how the first two approaches went. I don't know why he didn't use the grass runway...it was directly into the wind.

So, Jason and Jesse helped the pilot walk his airplane off the runway and onto a taxiway. The pilot was taking his father flying...it was the first time his father had flown with him. I really felt for the guy and his dad felt badly for him too. The pilot told me that he didn't know what happened, really. As we were out on the runway, I noticed that the windsock was shifting and gusting, such that the guy might have had a quartering tailwind momentarily as he was landing.

I've seen several incidents/accidents firsthand as they evolved. I still get that sick feeling watching it unfold in seemingly slow motion, not knowing if the people on board are going to be okay or not. Fortunately, these guys were not hurt.

 

[wabower]

Please post here prior to visiting any airport where I might be flying. I'm beginning to think you are bad luck.

I flew for lunch the other day. Kim flew down and I flew up to Miami County to meet up for lunch. It was a beautiful day to fly and the wind was right down the grass runway at Miami County. I was on a 75-mile final for Runway 33 when I departed the farm. You could smell the BBQ taxiing up to the ramp at K81.

Jason and Jesse flew in too, and we had a good visit while we ate BBQ and onion rings. I ate a lot of Jason's french fries.

Kim and I sat on the picnic table outside the restaurant and continued visiting while we waited for J & J to take off. An RV kept coming in to land on Runway 3, and I figured he was just practicing touch and goes for whatever reason. Well, the third time inbound, he touched down near the ramp, lost control of the airplane in the crosswind, tires were screeching, and then he nosed over and it looked like he was going to flip over as he careened down the runway on his nose. He had a lot of energy when he touched down. As we headed over to the runway to see if he was alright, he and his dad climbed out of the airplane. Fortunately, neither one of them was hurt. Evidently, he wasn't doing touch and goes the first two times...he was trying to land in that crosswind and didn't like how the first two approaches went. I don't know why he didn't use the grass runway...it was directly into the wind.

So, Jason and Jesse helped the pilot walk his airplane off the runway and onto a taxiway. The pilot was taking his father flying...it was the first time his father had flown with him. I really felt for the guy and his dad felt badly for him too. The pilot told me that he didn't know what happened, really. As we were out on the runway, I noticed that the windsock was shifting and gusting, such that the guy might have had a quartering tailwind momentarily as he was landing.

I've seen several incidents/accidents firsthand as they evolved. I still get that sick feeling watching it unfold in seemingly slow motion, not knowing if the people on board are going to be okay or not. Fortunately, these guys were not hurt.

 

[Matthew]

Glad no one was hurt.

I've seen some ugly landings. Some of them were my own. But I haven't seen anything bend or break yet.

It's probably a pretty frustrating feeling to see it in progress like that.

 

[ajstoner21]

I am glad everyone is OK! I'm sorry to hear about that, especially with his fathers first time!

I can't imagine watching something like that unfold in front of me. The first time I took my father flying, was kind of similar. The winds were moderate, but supposed to calm down as the day went on, and when we were leaving the area, the tower told a landing pilot winds were "18G32" or something, 30 degrees off the runway. At this point in my flying, my worst wind was like 15 steady, mostly with the runway. My first thought was "omg..." I thought well, can't get any worse, so we continued our flight. At the airport I flew to, we did a touch and go just fine. No problems at all. However, on the climbout, we had a nasty gust, that tried to roll me a little, and I slipped out an "oh god". My dad said he felt fine the whole time, until he heard the pilot say "oh god". It was a decent roll, low to the ground. I wasnt thrilled.

But, long story short, we came back, and landed with the winds exactly the same, two hours later, and it was some of my best landings ever. Perhaps I got lucky.

 

[Diana]

Please post here prior to visiting any airport where I might be flying. I'm beginning to think you are bad luck.

Oh......now I'm conflicted. I want to see you at airports, so I guess I won't tell you that I'm coming?

 

[wabower]

It's OK, as long as I get there first. I just don't want you to be there watching me land.

Oh......now I'm conflicted. I want to see you at airports, so I guess I won't tell you that I'm coming?

 

[ajstoner21]

It's OK, as long as I get there first. I just don't want you to be there watching me land.

 

[AdamZ]

Ugh I feel for that guy. Glad they are ok.

 

[Lawreston]

My thoughts are with the pilot during his "moment." Quartering tailwind? I know what can happen when a right crosswind changes(during the flare) to a right quartering tailwind and throws the a/c, during a T & G, over toward the two trees. (No injuries).

(b.) I'm curious. Was that "75-mile final for Runway 33" the longest straight-in during your career? )

HR

 

[flygirl34q]

Accidents suck. I will always remember seeing a bad one during one of the first Oshkosh's I ever went to as a pilot... 1998 or 1999... the one where a Corsair collided with another warbird on the runway during the afternoon airshow. So glad the two people in the RV were OK. If there has to be a choice, better a bent airplane than bent people.

 

[Bobcat1]

I don't even know you and now I want to avoid airports where you're at. You might be a nice person an' all, but stuff just seems to happen at airports where you're innocently having lunch.

Post a NOTAM next time you head out for lunch!

 

[flyersfan31]

Crikey. That has to be scary, regardless of the severity.

 

[bbchien]

Wow. Too many pilots committed to the accident. I would imagine he didn't want to take the grass as his tires are quite small.....

 

[wabower]

Was the grass wet? Or long? When I trained students there, the grass usually well-mowed and the runway was harder than Chinese arithmetic.

Wow. Too many pilots committed to the accident. I would imagine he didn't want to take the grass as his tires are quite small.....

 

[dmccormack]

Wow. Too many pilots committed to the accident. I would imagine he didn't want to take the grass as his tires are quite small.....

I prefer landing on grass and my tailwheel's as big as a Duncan yo-yo...

 

[bbchien]

....or he had not landed enough on grass to consider it a realistic alternative- or even PREFERRED rundway: "Committed" to the accident.

 

[kyleb]

I prefer landing on grass and my tailwheel's as big as a Duncan yo-yo...

The main gear is the issue. RV's use 5.00x5 tires. I'm sure you've got 6.00x6 or larger tires on your Chief, which is probably a 400 lb lighter airplane in the first place.

The little tires on RV's limit them to relatively smooth, firm grass strips.

Or pavement.

 

[Diana]

It's OK, as long as I get there first. I just don't want you to be there watching me land.

Can I watch you take off????

(b.) I'm curious. Was that "75-mile final for Runway 33" the longest straight-in during your career? )

HR

I only do it every time I fly up to meet Kim for lunch.

I don't even know you and now I want to avoid airports where you're at. You might be a nice person an' all, but stuff just seems to happen at airports where you're innocently having lunch.

Post a NOTAM next time you head out for lunch!

But, I'm fun!

Was the grass wet? Or long? When I trained students there, the grass usually well-mowed and the runway was harder than Chinese arithmetic.

Grass was recently mowed and the ground was almost that hard.

 

[wabower]

Without pejorative intent and based only on a reasonable length of experience (since Noah) I'd be willing to bet that he freaked. Those "first time I took Dad" flights are fraught with (emotional) peril that can quickly translate into other problems. Just sayin' based on the previous posts.

....or he had not landed enough on grass to consider it a realistic alternative- or even PREFERRED rundway: "Committed" to the accident.

 

[Diana]

Accidents suck. I will always remember seeing a bad one during one of the first Oshkosh's I ever went to as a pilot... 1998 or 1999... the one where a Corsair collided with another warbird on the runway during the afternoon airshow. So glad the two people in the RV were OK. If there has to be a choice, better a bent airplane than bent people.

I remember watching that one, too. We were on the flight line right in front of where it happened. It was awful. We could see it unfolding and there was nothing we could do.

 

[jason]

So, Jesse and I were sitting in the Cherokee and I was going through my pre-start checklist when I heard a small chirp and then a crunch. Jesse exclaimed, "oh, *golly*" and I turned around to see the guy skidding along on his spinner. I thought for sure they were going over. Thank god they didn't.

When Jesse and I went out to inspect the runway before we decided to use it, it became somewhat obvious what happened. After two go arounds, he wanted it to be on the ground more than it wanted to be there.

It really was heart wrenching. I felt so horrible for the guy, but was SO happy he was ok.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

What limits do folks here have on # of landings they will attempt before trying something different? I think it's possible that there are signs available to us that it might not work out after x tries.
I heard of a newly rated instrument pilot who did something like 9 or 11? attempts at an ils, his first in actual, home town, before getting in (near here).

Probably depends on what is experienced during the first 2 attempts, but how many would try an alternate plan if the original failed miserably, twice?

 

[jshawley]

I remember what Old Man Gaston said after one plane bent its nosewheel and prop after attempting land on said nosewheel several times: "plane was too fast, pilot was too slow."

I've taken that to heart.

 

[denverpilot]

Doc's comment on "committed" to the accident rings true. "Fixation" on problems causes folks to miss the obvious. In this case, the grass runway or simply flying to another airport with more favorable wind/runway geometry.

I'm not going to second guess the guy too hard, but it's a recurring theme in humans. In flying, in business, in relationships... "The definition of insanity is trying the same thing over again expecting a different result."

We have to keep that "Is there another better option?" loop going and if we get stuck, not forget there's a mic on a boom in front of our face for a reason. Imagine for a moment if the struggling pilot would have said something... Assuming that's an Uncontrolled airport...

I bet Jesse would have said, "XYZ airport is 5 miles away on a heading of 220 degrees and their runway is aligned with this wind, if that helps."

Almost all the old pilots I know have a story of keying up that radio and saying, "I'm not sure I can do this." And they still buy the beverages for the guy or gal who answered and gave them ideas whenever they see them.

Just my thoughts on this "brain lock-out" problem we all experience from time to time. There were aviators on the ground who would have helped this poor guy if he'd have only asked for it.

 

[steingar]

I'm happy to say I got taught that at WV62. Hardest landing I've done to date with the winds screaming every which way, and I remember telling Mrs. Steingar that if I couldn't put it down on my second try that we were going elsewhere. I've yet to find I runway I HAD to land just then.

 

[dmccormack]

The main gear is the issue. RV's use 5.00x5 tires. I'm sure you've got 6.00x6 or larger tires on your Chief, which is probably a 400 lb lighter airplane in the first place.

The little tires on RV's limit them to relatively smooth, firm grass strips.

Or pavement.

Yep, 6.00x6 which is pretty small.

Why put such tiny tires on if you're that limited?

 

[gkainz]

I'm happy to say I got taught that at WV62. Hardest landing I've done to date with the winds screaming every which way, and I remember telling Mrs. Steingar that if I couldn't put it down on my second try that we were going elsewhere. I've yet to find I runway I HAD to land just then.

As the LSO told the A-5 driver on a dark and lonely night: "Son, you have to land here, this is where the food is." There are those exceptions.

 

[Diana]

I bet Jesse would have said, "XYZ airport is 5 miles away on a heading of 220 degrees and their runway is aligned with this wind, if that helps."

I bet Kim or Diana would have said the same thing if they would have been on the radio.

 

[Troska]

Yep, 6.00x6 which is pretty small.

Why put such tiny tires on if you're that limited?

I operate my taildragger Sonex off of a grass strip with the stock 11-400 x 5 tires. With wheelpants.

Smaller even than the 5x5's on an RV.

6.00x6 is small?

Tim

 

[silver-eagle]

What limits do folks here have on # of landings they will attempt before trying something different...SNIP...

If I can't figure out what was wrong... Once. Unless there is an immediate need, step away from the airport, analyze what's going on, and make the appropriate correction. If that's admitting you can't land there, go with plan B.
Know your limitations. Get-there-itis affects us all in many things we do. We just have to learn (or relearn) ways to overcome it.

 

[Jim_R]

Okay, this isn't exactly a confessions thread, but it still seems appropriate to share...

I'm a relatively new pilot (<150 hrs and <2 yrs since first lesson). Haven't seen many airports outside 150nm radius of home. Haven't seen many weather conditions outside of calm and clear.

Took a rare overnight trip on Mem. Day weekend. On the way home, planned to stop at a strip that I'd heard had a good restaurant within walking distance. Was a little intimidated because runway was shorter and narrower than I'm used to (2500' x 50') and E-W, and the day had southerly breezes near 15 kts.

Got to the field and set up for the approach, holding a pretty good crab angle on final. Was eying the trees close along the S side of the runway, wondering how the S breeze might be burbling through them. Sure enough, when I kicked out the crab, I caught some burbles and got tossed around a bit, and ended up drifting N and unable to correct, so I elected to go-around. (Actually, I decided to just give up and head home, figuring I could come back some other day when winds weren't so challenging.)

From a personal perspective, I don't begrudge making the attempt...I learned something, even if it was only "yup, this was at least as challenging as I thought it was going to be".

What I do begrudge is spooking my passenger a bit. In addition to the obvious crab on final and the eventual abort, which were unusual by themselves, I was also a little quick to dump my flaps after applying throttle and we settled a few feet while still pretty low to the ground. That really got her attention.

Two things I took away from that:

First, be thoughtful of how you retract the flaps when low and slow. Of course, I'd been taught that lesson during primary instruction, but somehow I think maybe it will stick better after this experience.

Second, be thoughtful of what might be going through non-pilot pax minds' in such a scenario. I knew in advance that it might be a bit more than I was ready for, and I was mentally prepared to abort if I wasn't comfortable, but I never communicated any of that to my pax beforehand. She had no reason to think there was anything unusual about the situation, and was...let's just say "surprised and uncomfortable" at how it turned out. I should have done something to help "manage her expectations" a little better...

 

[TangoWhiskey]

Okay, this isn't exactly a confessions thread, but it still seems appropriate to share...

SNIP

Two things I took away from that:

First, be thoughtful of how you retract the flaps when low and slow. Of course, I'd been taught that lesson during primary instruction, but somehow I think maybe it will stick better after this experience.

Second, be thoughtful of what might be going through non-pilot pax minds' in such a scenario. I knew in advance that it might be a bit more than I was ready for, and I was mentally prepared to abort if I wasn't comfortable, but I never communicated any of that to my pax beforehand. She had no reason to think there was anything unusual about the situation, and was...let's just say "surprised and uncomfortable" at how it turned out. I should have done something to help "manage her expectations" a little better...

Excellent job, and lessons learned. Thanks for sharing!

 

[steingar]

I carefully brief my pax if I think the landing is going to be eventful. Usually something like "hang onto your hats boys!", or something to the effect. I'm never shy about it, and usually try to explain what will make the landing challenging.

 

[ajstoner21]

I'm happy to say I got taught that at WV62. Hardest landing I've done to date with the winds screaming every which way, and I remember telling Mrs. Steingar that if I couldn't put it down on my second try that we were going elsewhere. I've yet to find I runway I HAD to land just then.

I heard a story once about an IFR guy who kept missing the approach, and didn't really pay too close attention to fuel, and he went missed SEVERAL times. He finally got in, refueled and almost put the entire usuable fuel back in. Example being, if he had 48 total usable gallons, he might have put in 47.9.

Never too sure if those stories are true, but it wouldnt surprise me.

 

[jason]

Okay, this isn't exactly a confessions thread, but it still seems appropriate to share...

I'm a relatively new pilot (<150 hrs and <2 yrs since first lesson). Haven't seen many airports outside 150nm radius of home. Haven't seen many weather conditions outside of calm and clear.

Took a rare overnight trip on Mem. Day weekend. On the way home, planned to stop at a strip that I'd heard had a good restaurant within walking distance. Was a little intimidated because runway was shorter and narrower than I'm used to (2500' x 50') and E-W, and the day had southerly breezes near 15 kts.

Got to the field and set up for the approach, holding a pretty good crab angle on final. Was eying the trees close along the S side of the runway, wondering how the S breeze might be burbling through them. Sure enough, when I kicked out the crab, I caught some burbles and got tossed around a bit, and ended up drifting N and unable to correct, so I elected to go-around. (Actually, I decided to just give up and head home, figuring I could come back some other day when winds weren't so challenging.)

From a personal perspective, I don't begrudge making the attempt...I learned something, even if it was only "yup, this was at least as challenging as I thought it was going to be".

What I do begrudge is spooking my passenger a bit. In addition to the obvious crab on final and the eventual abort, which were unusual by themselves, I was also a little quick to dump my flaps after applying throttle and we settled a few feet while still pretty low to the ground. That really got her attention.

Two things I took away from that:

First, be thoughtful of how you retract the flaps when low and slow. Of course, I'd been taught that lesson during primary instruction, but somehow I think maybe it will stick better after this experience.

Second, be thoughtful of what might be going through non-pilot pax minds' in such a scenario. I knew in advance that it might be a bit more than I was ready for, and I was mentally prepared to abort if I wasn't comfortable, but I never communicated any of that to my pax beforehand. She had no reason to think there was anything unusual about the situation, and was...let's just say "surprised and uncomfortable" at how it turned out. I should have done something to help "manage her expectations" a little better...

Nice story and good lesson. The second time my wife ever flew with me, we were going into a shortish/narrowish strip with a hefty crosswind. As I was setting up for pattern, I looked over at her and said "I want you to know in advance, that this is going to be a challenging landing...but I've done many just like it before. I want you to be prepared, in advance, for a go around. If *anything* doesn't look right to me, we will go back up and try it again. That doesn't mean that we're in danger, it just means that I don't like how it's coming together...and I want to make sure it's perfect before I land."

She later told me that she appreciated that and that it made her feel a lot better as we were coming it. More importantly, it put me at ease knowing that I wouldn't be less of a pilot in her eyes if I decided that I didn't like it. It flipped a switch in my head that made the go around a much more acceptable option and made me feel like I didn't have to impress her.

Oh...and then I nailed the landing.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

Nice story and good lesson. The second time my wife ever flew with me, we were going into a shortish/narrowish strip with a hefty crosswind. As I was setting up for pattern, I looked over at her and said "I want you to know in advance, that this is going to be a challenging landing...but I've done many just like it before. I want you to be prepared, in advance, for a go around. If *anything* doesn't look right to me, we will go back up and try it again. That doesn't mean that we're in danger, it just means that I don't like how it's coming together...and I want to make sure it's perfect before I land."

She later told me that she appreciated that and that it made her feel a lot better as we were coming it. More importantly, it put me at ease knowing that I wouldn't be less of a pilot in her eyes if I decided that I didn't like it. It flipped a switch in my head that made the go around a much more acceptable option and made me feel like I didn't have to impress her.

Oh...and then I nailed the landing.

Love it!

 

[wabower]

Rather than going to the trouble of briefing them, why don't you just say "your controls" and make one of the other pilots land the plane? Works for me.

I carefully brief my pilots if I think the landing is going to be eventful. Usually something like "hang onto your hats boys!", or something to the effect. I'm never shy about it, and usually try to explain what will make the landing challenging.

 

[Jim_R]

<snip>
I looked over at her and said "I want you to know in advance, that this is going to be a challenging landing...but I've done many just like it before. I want you to be prepared, in advance, for a go around. If *anything* doesn't look right to me, we will go back up and try it again. That doesn't mean that we're in danger, it just means that I don't like how it's coming together...and I want to make sure it's perfect before I land."

That's a pretty good way to put it. I did think about trying to say something, because my passenger has told me before that she's sometimes apprehensive during landings, but as I ran ideas through my head, I worried that all of them would set her more on edge than at ease, and I didn't want to make her any more apprehensive. In the end, I ran out of time and just chose to keep my mouth shut, but in hindsight that wasn't a great idea either. I'm still working on projecting that "confident yet careful" attitude in the cockpit, and finding the right words to go along with that!

Oh...and then I nailed the landing.

Well, that always helps...I don't know why *I* didn't just do that!

 

[Flyparrothead]

I flew for lunch the other day. Kim flew down and I flew up to Miami County to meet up for lunch. It was a beautiful day to fly and the wind was right down the grass runway at Miami County. I was on a 75-mile final for Runway 33 when I departed the farm. You could smell the BBQ taxiing up to the ramp at K81.

Jason and Jesse flew in too, and we had a good visit while we ate BBQ and onion rings. I ate a lot of Jason's french fries.

Kim and I sat on the picnic table outside the restaurant and continued visiting while we waited for J & J to take off. An RV kept coming in to land on Runway 3, and I figured he was just practicing touch and goes for whatever reason. Well, the third time inbound, he touched down near the ramp, lost control of the airplane in the crosswind, tires were screeching, and then he nosed over and it looked like he was going to flip over as he careened down the runway on his nose. He had a lot of energy when he touched down. As we headed over to the runway to see if he was alright, he and his dad climbed out of the airplane. Fortunately, neither one of them was hurt. Evidently, he wasn't doing touch and goes the first two times...he was trying to land in that crosswind and didn't like how the first two approaches went. I don't know why he didn't use the grass runway...it was directly into the wind.

So, Jason and Jesse helped the pilot walk his airplane off the runway and onto a taxiway. The pilot was taking his father flying...it was the first time his father had flown with him. I really felt for the guy and his dad felt badly for him too. The pilot told me that he didn't know what happened, really. As we were out on the runway, I noticed that the windsock was shifting and gusting, such that the guy might have had a quartering tailwind momentarily as he was landing.

I've seen several incidents/accidents firsthand as they evolved. I still get that sick feeling watching it unfold in seemingly slow motion, not knowing if the people on board are going to be okay or not. Fortunately, these guys were not hurt.

Feel sorry for them. I had a similar experience coming back from Florida, hit some strong cross winds, 19G28 and ran off the runway. But as long as there is no damage to you, an airplane can always be fixed, and egos mended.

 

[Neal Howard]

Why put such tiny tires on if you're that limited?

RV's are built for speed and light weight, that's why they use the small tires.

Also, the tires barely stick out the bottom of the wheelpants, especially if you've got the later design "pressure recovery" style of wheelpants.

However, I've landed the RV-8 on grass many times, even on a not-so-smooth grass runway. The undersides of the wheel pants do catch heck though, and the paint and fiberglass on the bottoms can get banged and scratched up pretty good with a steady diet of landing on other than smooth runway surfaces, whether grass or paved.

Right now, with the drought and high temps here in north central TX, all the grass runways at my airport are all dried up, cracked and rough right now. And the blast furnace winds keep howling out of the SW, a 90 degree crosswind to our sole paved runway 13-31.