Fixed gear temporarily for insurance purposes?

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moparrob66

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Moparrob
Considering a Cherokee 6 but i found a Lance in my price range. The insurance on a retractable will kill me, but an A&P years ago mentioned that a 210 can be made a fixed gear. Im sure it can be done with a Lance, but will the insurance company go for it?

Once I build more time, I suspect the rates would go down and then I can put the gear up? Anybody tried this workaround?
 
Is there an STC for it, or will your A&P do a 337? No insurance company will give a lower rate based on “I pinky swear to leave the gear down.”
 
moparrob66 said:
Considering a Cherokee 6 but i found a Lance in my price range. The insurance on a retractable will kill me, but an A&P years ago mentioned that a 210 can be made a fixed gear. Im sure it can be done with a Lance, but will the insurance company go for it?

Once I build more time, I suspect the rates would go down and then I can put the gear up? Anybody tried this workaround?
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If a Lance performs anything like the Arrow does with the gear dropped - I wouldn't do that.
Plus the resale market probably would look bad unless that STC/process is easily reversible. IDK if there's many people out there shopping for retract models but wanting FG.
I'd stick with a naturally fixed gear plane, like a Cherokee 6/Saratoga/182/206... Or maybe your STC'd 210 with FG performs well (never flown a 210).
 
There is an art to making a straight-leg aircraft efficient at speed. I suspect there is a marked difference in performance between a retract with the gear down and fixed-gear PA-32 airframes. Gear doors; strut geometry; fairings and wheel pants (or lack thereof). What your agent or underwriter says is one thing -- whether you're willing to fly it gear-down all the time for a year, and do so for enough hours to capture any discount is another.

Besides, I thought the penalty in premium was for lack of retract experience. You won't get any with this plan.
 
moparrob66 said:
but an A&P years ago mentioned that a 210 can be made a fixed gear.
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There is no legal avenue to do this. Cessna made a 205 which is 'essentially' a fixed gear 210. However they are separate aircraft and you cannot interchange.
 
midlifeflyer said:
It may not go down that much if you even with a lot more fixed gear experience
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To be clear, the reason the insurance for a retractable will always be 2x (usually more) than an equivalent fixed gear model is because of the possibility of a gear-up (and all the associated repairs). Very little of the premium is due to your lack of experience in type.

C.
 
This makes me wonder is you could get a policy excluding gear-ups. Not that the bank would approve, but if the owner wanted at least some insurance…
 
If insurance on a retract would (financially) kill you, then you probably shouldn’t be throwing money at home-baked aircraft mods and kooky solutions. Just buy a real fixed gear and enjoy living within budget. Plus, ask yourself why that Lance is in your price range…..
 
Everyone has a budget, of course, but when it comes to single engine airplanes, insurance is a very small part of the ownership experience. I wouldn't base purchasing decisions on first year insurance premiums. It'll be a drop in the bucket of the overall cost.
 
The lance is in my price range because is has a zillion hours....15k+ttaf and 1900+ sfrm. Cargo interior, ex-freighter so id have to track down seats and windows. But its $50k less than the next cheapest cherokee 6/260. I'll scrap the idea. I appreciate everyones input!
 
moparrob66 said:
The lance is in my price range because is has a zillion hours....15k+ttaf and 1900+ sfrm. Cargo interior, ex-freighter so id have to track down seats and windows. But its $50k less than the next cheapest cherokee 6/260. I'll scrap the idea. I appreciate everyones input!
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Seats, window, used as a freighter, a zillion hours? Sounds like $50,000 more is cheaper.
 
bradg33 said:
Everyone has a budget, of course, but when it comes to single engine airplanes, insurance is a very small part of the ownership experience. I wouldn't base purchasing decisions on first year insurance premiums. It'll be a drop in the bucket of the overall cost.
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You are right about that. However, that doesn't negate the utility of seeking to reduce the costs of flying, even in modest amounts. OP may also be trimming costs elsewhere -- nickels add up to dimes and quarters.

Also, I bristle at the misconception that 'Pilots are all rich; they can afford it/should just pay'. That's a poor excuse to charge $100 for something that should trade for $20 in a competitive market. Also, I want to see more pilots, and charging $100 for a $20 item is not the way to get there.
 
RussR said:
If I was the insurer in this situation, I'd charge you MORE after you put it back to retractable. Because now that you've flown the plane for a year and never put the gear down, I'd bet you're far MORE likely to land gear up. Habits die hard.
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That's a good point.

Do you remember when Sporty's was selling a stick-on gear lever for training purposes? Maybe 10-15 years ago? As soon as I saw it the first time, it struck me that the only thing it would teach is that failing to “extend” the gear has no consequences whatsoever. That’s a heck of a thing to learn in preparation for retracts.
 
DJTorrente said:
You are right about that. However, that doesn't negate the utility of seeking to reduce the costs of flying, even in modest amounts. OP may also be trimming costs elsewhere -- nickels add up to dimes and quarters.

Also, I bristle at the misconception that 'Pilots are all rich; they can afford it/should just pay'. That's a poor excuse to charge $100 for something that should trade for $20 in a competitive market. Also, I want to see more pilots, and charging $100 for a $20 item is not the way to get there.
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No it doesn't negate the utility of seeking areas where one can reduce costs. But the reality is that acquisition is often the cheapest part of the ownership equation. I think that's all he was pointing out.

455 Bravo Uniform said:
This makes me wonder is you could get a policy excluding gear-ups.
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Probably not. But one option I haven't seen mentioned is to absorb the cost of hull damage yourself and get a liability-only policy. You'd save a lot. And build complex time for the future if you don't gear-up (no, not everyone does). If one is unwilling to take that risk, one can perhaps understand why hull is often the biggest part of the insurance premium unless you get things like $2MM smooth liability.
 
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camorton said:
To be clear, the reason the insurance for a retractable will always be 2x (usually more) than an equivalent fixed gear model is because of the possibility of a gear-up (and all the associated repairs). Very little of the premium is due to your lack of experience in type.

C.
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I disagree. Sort of. Gaining more hours in fixed gear will have a small effect on your insurance. Gaining more complex/retract hours WILL reduce the insurance price. And even more so when you get at least 100 hours in Make and Model.

My insurance went down 10% when I hit 100 hours time in Make and Model.

And insurance is less when you have a lot of retract time, even in other makes and models.

On another forum, this came up, and the recommendation from an insurance broker was, just suck it up for the first year. The increase insurance will be less than flying a lot of retract time.
 
midlifeflyer said:
But one option I haven't seen mentioned is to absorb the cost of hull damage yourself and get a liability-only policy. You'd save would save a lot. And build complex time for the future if you don't gear-up (no, not everyone does). If one is unwilling to take that risk, one can perhaps understand why hull is often the biggest part of the insurance premium unless you get things like $2MM smooth liability.
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If you can afford to walk away from the plane, that is a reasonable option.

But I would price the option and then take a long hard look at whether that first year hull insurance is worth it.

Also, this is NOT an option if you finance the plane.
 
DJTorrente said:
….That's a poor excuse to charge $100 for something that should trade for $20 in a competitive market…
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Define that competitive market. As for insurers, premiums cover expected losses from the pool of insureds. Those expected losses are backed up with decades of data with a secondary reinsurance market for catastrophic events that every underwriter particulates in.
 
midlifeflyer said:
That's a good point.

Do you remember when Sporty's was selling a stick-on gear lever for training purposes? Maybe 10-15 years ago? As soon as I saw it the first time, it struck me that the only thing it would teach is that failing to “extend” the gear has no consequences whatsoever. That’s a heck of a thing to learn in preparation for retracts.
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I do remember that, and also thinking that exact same thing. Ridiculous, poorly thought out product.
 
midlifeflyer said:
...although I have to admit I used to pretend to have a stick shift in my car long before I drove one :D
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Hell I used to play around with my cordless home phone in my car before cell phones.

I learned to drive 4 speed when I was 14-15 and my first job at 16 was driving old dodge van with a worn out 3 on the tree for a transmission. You had to shift it just right due to the worn out shift linkage.
 
Gary Ward said:
Hell I used to play around with my cordless home phone in my car before cell phones.

I learned to drive 4 speed when I was 14-15 and my first job at 16 was driving old dodge van with a worn out 3 on the tree for a transmission. You had to shift it just right due to the worn out shift linkage.
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I learned in a 1960 MBZ sedan with 4 speed "on the tree." I was a diesel, built from recycled Tiger tanks, and went from 0 to 35 MPH in two days... Now that I have gone through a few teenage drivers, I finally realized how smart my father was.

RE the linkage... I remember getting that fixed to pass the PA state vehicle inspection... it was night and day.

1960-mercedes-190-636d9eebce6f3.jpg
 
DJTorrente said:
You are right about that. However, that doesn't negate the utility of seeking to reduce the costs of flying, even in modest amounts. OP may also be trimming costs elsewhere -- nickels add up to dimes and quarters.

Also, I bristle at the misconception that 'Pilots are all rich; they can afford it/should just pay'. That's a poor excuse to charge $100 for something that should trade for $20 in a competitive market. Also, I want to see more pilots, and charging $100 for a $20 item is not the way to get there.
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As Mark noted, I was simply pointing out that if first year insurance is too much to handle, maybe it's time to reconsider the economics of ownership. A lot of people don't really appreciate just how much maintaining an airplane actually costs until they start writing checks. There are so, so, so many parts on the airplane that cost $1k+, a lot of which are borderline "consumables." I can tell you with 100% certainty that I didn't really grasp it until I bought my first airplane. It was a real learning curve, and I'm fortunate that my income increased over time so I was able to manage the costs, but the annual insurance premium wasn't what was inflicting pain.
 
Ventucky Red said:
I learned in a 1960 MBZ sedan with 4 speed "on the tree." I was a diesel, built from recycled Tiger tanks, and went from 0 to 35 MPH in two days... Now that I have gone through a few teenage drivers, I finally realized how smart my father was.

RE the linkage... I remember getting that fixed to pass the PA state vehicle inspection... it was night and day.

1960-mercedes-190-636d9eebce6f3.jpg
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That is a good looking car in good shape. Do you still have it?
My Father was a wise man also but not wise enough to keep me out of early 70s muscle cars with 4 speeds. Even though he tried to talk me out of them. It was my money I earned cutting grass so...I totaled 2 of them before I was 18 because of the 4 speed and spinning the tires. Luckily I didn't kill anyone.
 
bradg33 said:
…A lot of people don't really appreciate just how much maintaining an airplane actually costs until they start writing checks. …
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The other thread made me go back and look at out numbers. All in costs for our owned C-172 from 2010-2022 excluding fuel, but inclusive of everything else usually run between $11k - and $15k; the hangar is a community hangar.

Our outlier years have been $17K (case repair & jug), $24K (ADSB), and $32K (G5s) all in, and we usually do our own oil changes.

Don’t know the numbers for a payment, but that would be additive to the above. Hourly amortization makes it look cheep, because $200K/2300hrs turns out to be $87/hr all in.
 
TCABM said:
Define that competitive market. As for insurers, premiums cover expected losses from the pool of insureds. Those expected losses are backed up with decades of data with a secondary reinsurance market for catastrophic events that every underwriter particulates in.
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Since we're talking about insurance, in a competitive market, your quote wouldn't be "claimed" according to N-number by the first agent to submit to underwriters (ex. AVEMCO, I believe, who sells direct through captive agents). What incentive is there for agents to compete for business under those circumstances?

I'm also thinking about COTS components that MIGHT be readily available at one's local National Aviation Parts Association (NAPA?) outlet. Maybe a swashplate compressor air-conditioning system that costs $500 for installation in a car which becomes a $25,000 option in a Cirrus.
 
The fixed gear version will be faster.
moparrob66 said:
The lance is in my price range because is has a zillion hours....15k+ttaf and 1900+ sfrm. Cargo interior, ex-freighter so id have to track down seats and windows. But its $50k less than the next cheapest cherokee 6/260. I'll scrap the idea. I appreciate everyones input!
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The other reason you shouldn't do that is the FAA will eventually finalize the bolt hole AD with a wing life limiting hours. "yOu doN't knOw tHat", sure, go with that then...

Fanbois think the eddy current was a one time thing and home free. It's right in the verbiage, it's an interim AD, with a subsequent SB talking about potential "recommendations" based on intervals. People fail reading comprehension at their own peril.

Based on part 23 era equivalents (seminole, traumahawk, commander et al), sitting in the 6-12k hour, you'd be an idiot to buy at 15k on any pa-28/32 affected by the bolt hole AD.
 
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Gary Ward said:
That is a good looking car in good shape. Do you still have it?
My Father was a wise man also but not wise enough to keep me out of early 70s muscle cars with 4 speeds. Even though he tried to talk me out of them. It was my money I earned cutting grass so...I totaled 2 of them before I was 18 because of the 4 speed and spinning the tires. Luckily I didn't kill anyone.
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Unfortunately no.. it finally went to it's death due to the northeast winters in 1985. My dad replaced it with the newer version of the 190... what many referred to as "The Baby Benz.." To his fortune, his was made in Sindelfingen and didn't have the electrical and leaking problems the other had that were built in Bremen.
 
How bad is the quote? I have a Lance and my yearly premiums are around $3k.

Are you instrument rated? That brings it down quite a bit. Complex time/time in type will bring it down as well.. total hours also help. If you can stick it out for a year at the higher rate and build that time in type and maybe go for an instrument rating at the same time if you don't already have one I think you'd be ahead but IDK what your quote was. My initial quote several years ago was closer to $4k with no complex or time in type but I did have around 500 hours of PA-28 time and an IR.
 
If you are shopping for a Lance or Cherokee 6 and Insurance premium is a deal breaker, your bank account isn't going to lake the rest of the expenses lol.
 
Grum.Man said:
If you are shopping for a Lance or Cherokee 6 and Insurance premium is a deal breaker, your bank account isn't going to lake the rest of the expenses lol.
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Hey, since its only money, you can Venmo @David-Torrente. Feel free to send as much as they'll let you.
 
As a low time pilot who has been in the market for a RG plane and talked to many insurance companies -- gotta bite the bullet on that upfront cost as it is what it is and there really isn't any good/easy way around it. I certainly would not turn a Lance into fixed gear, even if it "can" be done. The way to get RG insurance cost down is to get a ton of time in RG planes, and especially the type you want to get insured in. Instrument rating will help a bit too but not significantly. Buy the Lance, fly it a couple hundred hours in year 1, then go back and get quotes from insurance companies again.
 
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