First time in the clouds and I gave up

Briany, thanks for being honest and posting this. I'll say up front that you are NOT alone. I had a little bit of time on a flight to Aransas Texas in actual IMC with my first instructor when my plane was all steam gauges and I did fairly well. Since I've replaced my attitude and heading indicators with Garmin G5s, I tried it again with another, more experienced instructor (yeah, Ryan I'm talking about you) and just about lost all desire to obtain an IFR rating. I was terrible. My "scan" was reduced to basically two instruments that I wasn't very familiar with and I was all over the place trying to hold an altitude and heading. I'm focused on my A&P right now but after that, I'll try it again.
 
Wait til you do IMC (actual) at night. Now that’s spooky! I had some students in the Army who got hardly any, if any actual before they got to me. I got them some good “weather” time at night and they said it was the most satisfying experience that they had in flight school. It’s all about gaining confidence, additional skills and realizing, it’s not as hard as the mental barrier you created in your mind.
 
Piperonca said:
So, I had to fly essentially solo left seat in a UH-1 (paltry instruments) in increasingly bad and unforecast weather (rain, now, leaking in through the windshield frame) and moderate turbulence. Got lined up after a bit and flew a localizer back into home station by memory and cross check with the controller, since I could not let go of the controls. I recall during that experience smelling my own sweat. The only time that's ever happened.
Click to expand...

Strangely, I always felt comfortable in the barely instrumented left seat of a UH-1H. I learned in a simple airplane and flew instruments with WW2- era barrel heading indicators and attitude indicators with only one white line and a little airplane.

0-0 takeoffs were one of the most entertaining things you could do in a helicopter (with a tail rotor) and even more hilarious in that horrible simulator. :D

I have a story about one particular Ms. Fieldgrade who performed basically chandelles on an ILS approach... Not today, though...
 
Velocity173 said:
Wait til you do IMC (actual) at night. Now that’s spooky!
Click to expand...

My old crusty curmudgeonly CFI was great for just about everything during my PPL and IR, and I learned a lot, but the one thing that grated me was we never did actual before I got my ticket. After the ticket, I went up with another pilot friend and did my 1st actual on a rainy February night. This was posted here a long long time ago:

-------------------------------

Due to various reasons (sore subject), I had never gotten any actual since my IR checkride (Dec 9th), and planes, weather, and schedules had conspired to prevent me from getting my wings wet solo. I had the Archer booked, and last night’s weather looked good to me: 2300 overcast and 7SM, with occasional rain showers reducing vis to 5SM, and temps at 3000 of about 55F. Looked good to me.


I called my original II, and he would not go (no surprise). I called the club instructor, but he had another engagement, so I called Brent. We trained together and progressed together (with the same II) all the way to check ride. We even took our rides the same day. “I’ve trained many hours with you, you’re a safe pilot, and I trust you, lets go!”


So, 6:30pm, in a light rain shower, we depart with a local IFR plan to shoot approaches. At 2000msl, we go into the soup, and it is indeed overcast. I know what everyone has said to expect on your first encounter with IMC, and I was waiting for it, but you really cannot describe it until you feel it. I cannot BELIEVE how badly my body was lying to me; I had the leans, and a little bit of dizziness. In addition, I see why some pilots kill the strobes and landing lights in the clouds, both of those bothered me, so I killed them while in the IMC.


I worked hard to maintain altitude and heading, but initially the best I could do was +/- 100 on the altitude, and I kept chasing it up and down, up and down, enough so that Brent commented “What are we, a yo-yo?” Likewise, I had trouble holding heading better than +/- 10 degrees. Wheel, all that motion and the leans too…had to work hard.


Got vectored downwind, and towards the end of that vector, I started to get things kind of under control, then we got vectors towards the inbound. Once established, I descended per plate to 2500, and flew to the FAF/OM, Right on cue, the GS was level right at the OM beacon, and we started down the GS. We broke out at 2000, but could not see the runway lights due to a light rain shower. At 2nm out, we got a visual on the runway, and continued down the approach.


Although DH is 873, I went missed at 1000, and around we went again. Into the soup at 2000, I was much better at controlling the plane this time around. Due to lots of arriving jet traffic, approach sent us on a super long downwind, and then boxed us around towards the approach course. It seemed like we were flying forever, and it was solid IMC, with no ground contact whatsoever. Occasionally, we would see a faint glow from lights on the ground, other times it was absolutely 100% pitch black. Just those instruments and that eerie red and green glow at your wingtips. This time around, I nailed my altitudes and headings very well, and it started to feel like old home again. Just like I did at night on the foggles, just no foggles this time. The patter of rain against the windscreen came and went as we passed in and out of the showers.


Once inbound, I again descend to 2500, and wait for the OM/GS. Once on the GS, we start down, and as we pass thru 2000, I tell Brent we should break out and let me know.


1900

1800, well, I guess not, and the altimeter continues to unwind…

1700

1600

1500, we remind each other that DH is 873…

1400

1300

1200, “I think I see the rabbit!” A few seconds later, poof, we are out, and there is the runway, right where we left it! Runway, Oh glorious runway! The altimeter reads 1100. I click on the landing lights and strobes.


Tower asks our intentions, and we eagerly request a full stop. I crank in the last two notches of flaps, pull the power, and get us down to approach speed. Flair over the centerline, back, back, stall horn, back, back, and with the yoke full back, we thump softly to the rain soaked runway. Taxiing back, raindrops dance in the puddles.


Shutdown and cleaned up, I was out for 1.2, almost all of it solid IMC. I had not intended my first IMC to be so aggressive (shooting an approach to 400ft at night), but it was a good lesson in how conditions can deteriorate further than forecast. When I filed, I did not list an alternate, because per 123 rule, the 2300 overcast and 5SM vis as worst did not require it. Now, not only would I require an alternate, but conditions were below alternate mins as well.


By the time I got home, the next METAR showed conditions under mins, glad we called it quits.
 
Bill Jennings said:
...it was a good lesson in how conditions can deteriorate further than forecast.
Click to expand...
I had to re-learn that lesson on the Oregon coast a few years ago. Forecast was VFR, but things went IFR before I got there. To make matters worse, even the METAR was off. The ceiling on final unexpectedly turned out to be barely above minimums.
 
denverpilot said:
I’ve met a couple pilots who were so enamored by the panel gadgets and their iPad, that they needed that. LOL.
Click to expand...

Actually....for the last hours of my training I removed my 2 (!) iPad mounts and put them in the back seat. I picked up one of the iPads only when I needed to brief an approach. I left them off the last few flights and just printed the plates. Made for much simpler focus. Same way that partial-panel makes a scan easier. Less shiz to look at.
 
I may be the opposite of Bryan when it comes to flying on instruments. My second flying lesson ever (as in the day after the first time I sat in the left seat of an airplane) had an hour of actual IMC. I immediately loved it. Dove into my instrument rating right after finishing up my private. By the time I had 800 hours like Bryan, I'd pretty much forgotten how to fly VFR because it was just something I never did. I remember one day I took the Aztec out for a test flight following maintenance and called up ground... "Aztec 6927Y, VFR to... umm... departure... I'M GOING SOUTHEAST!"

Of course I've also had my share of disorienting moments. I remember getting very disoriented one night in the Mooney in night actual (that was a crazy flying day all around). Probably the worst I had was in the MU-2, at FL200 there was a very odd cloud layer that made it look like I was banked 90 degrees (I wasn't). That was with around 3,000 hours flying IFR most of it (and hundreds of hours of actual IMC).

I think that students getting instrument ratings without any actual IMC experience is doing them a terrible disservice. If you're learning in Arizona it's just not very likely to happen. I was fortunate that in Pennsylvania we had lots of actual IMC, and so we purposely went out on those days.

As a forum we've always encouraged people to get new ratings - instrument, commercial, even when we look at useless things like seaplane and the like. We advocate that doing such things make you a better pilot (they do) may lower insurance (potentially) and it's fun.

The reality is that a lot of times adding those things takes away some of the fun. Once you have an instrument rating there's this feeling that you have to keep your currency up with an IPC, and the reality is that, especially as a new instrument pilot, you need to build up a lot of proficiency to be useful. It can be slippery and then your hobby of flying quickly turns into another job.

Bryan's put a lot of time, money, and effort into getting his instrument rating. My opinion, he should finish it up at this point, and be comfortable with the concept that he may have the rating and never use it. There is nothing wrong with that. How many of us get a seaplane rating and never use it afterwards? I'd bet more than 50% of applicants. He'll get the insurance discount that goes with it. And if, at some point, he decides that he has a use for the instrument rating, he'll just have to focus on whatever he needs to do to get proficient and comfortable, rather than also dealing with the regulatory aspects (like he is now).

Perhaps my thought to other hobby pilots is that there's nothing wrong with not having an instrument rating. Yes, clouds can show up out of nowhere, but for the most part if you look at your weather correctly this isn't an issue. If you're not trying to fly long distances, it's less of an issue. Now at the end of a period of intense instrument flying, I'm happy to be "done" with it (or at least on hiatus). When the urge to fly again arises (I haven't missed flying at all since watching the MU-2 fly off), I'm looking forward to doing flying just for the fun of it, not in pursuit of another goal. In that way, I envy Bryan and those who just do this because it's fun and keep it not a job.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I am going up again today and we are going to get in the clouds and not worry about approaches / arrivals, but just practice flying a heading, doing some turns, etc. the very basic things you do on day 1 under the hood.
He said we can go further away from Dallas where it is quieter and get acclimated to flying the plane in the clouds with reduced stress from not being under the bravo.
I guess there are ways to get on a flight plan with some wiggle room for turns, climbs, etc. I am not sure how that works. I am going to go up a few more times to assess my aviation goals.
Click to expand...
That is a good plan. During my training, my first time in actual was a 4 hour cross country flight, 3 hours of it in IMC. We did 2 approaches along the way. The pace was more like an actual flight than a training flight, so there was plenty of time to just get comfortable with the basics in the clouds and stay ahead of the plane without having to worry about talking a whole lot on the radio, dialing in approach after approach, constantly climbing, descending, and turning etc.
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
Actually....for the last hours of my training I removed my 2 (!) iPad mounts and put them in the back seat. I picked up one of the iPads only when I needed to brief an approach. I left them off the last few flights and just printed the plates. Made for much simpler focus. Same way that partial-panel makes a scan easier. Less shiz to look at.
Click to expand...

Yeah the joke was about VFR pilots but I had a similar experience. Jesse wouldn’t allow the GPS to be on in the iPad during training. It was a glorified paper chart. Use the panel, Luke. Oh yeah, he covered most of that too. Ha.

Took me until the second approach on the checkride to even notice the little airplane on the plate when the DPE allowed the tablet GPS to be on. Haha. Oh yeah. That makes it easier. Hell, that was “cheating” to me, even. Ha.

Airplane at the time was boring old /A. The tablet was the only GPS on board. Just used the instruments as intended... didn’t really need the moving map or airplane symbol by then.

Airplane “helpfully” also became /U instead of /A on the way home on my first filed IFR flight plan by myself. Haha. Ohhh well. Dead DME! Because I have a Nebraska curse that breaks every piece of equipment I take to Nebraska. Ha.

Wasn’t hard IMC the whole way home, but I had just filed for altitudes that would force me to be inside those nifty clouds. Ha. Using that new ticket right away. Popped in and out all the way home. No approaches truly needed, but in and out of broken stuff was useful in Wichita to not have to scud run below the crud hanging down at uncomfortably low AGL altitudes that day. Home was severe clear with widely scattered t-storms that were easily avoided.
 
kep5niner said:
Or in a pinch, use a -12. But nowadays, I'd have trouble attaching that hood to my non-existent goggle mount on my non-existent -56 ;)
Click to expand...

Yeah, my last evaluation as an IE, I had him use a -12. That hood is maybe 30 years old. Don’t know of too many that use hoods on annual instrument rides anymore. Either way, unless the chin bubble is covered, a vision restricting device is almost useless.35FD92D8-CCC6-4E9A-B6CF-9065AC6DFD19.jpeg
 
Last edited:
If you can either block out side vision of foggles or get into IMC with an instructor would you try this? Talk out loud as to what you need to do to control the aircraft. This has been used successfully to get your body to respond to your brain. For instance say, "Center T&B needle". Japanese railroad engineers are required to do this. I have never had your problem but would be very interested to see if it helps.
 
woodchucker said:
So, you have a lot more experience than me. I’m mid-200 hours and quit my IR temporarily due to Covid.

In my humble opinion foggles are worthless. Practice with the actual hood. It removes those peripheral clues. Also use a sim for additional practice. Great for procedures and a somewhat cheaper method to work on what you know.

That said I’m sure actual is much more intimidating says me with zero actual.
Click to expand...

I have read several of these posts. I will be a contrarian and say when I did my IR training, I found where the foggles to be disorientating. I hated the little bit of glimpses of the outside world, the sun moving during maneuvers, etc. I found in the clouds much easier. But then again, I found partial panel on the turn coordinator and airspeed and altitude instruments pretty straight forward.

Stick with it. It will help lower your insurance rates.
 
KeepWatch said:
Since this thread has fully detoured into view-limiting device opinions, I'll put this one out there as the one that I found to be the best of all worlds.

Meet The Hoody (I'm sure this is not the first time it's been mentioned)

Luckily, looking cool is not the point of a view limiting device. Like others, foggles gave me a headache. A full hood was a pain to get situated and to take off. This thing stays put, does not let you cheat (unless you decide to), and pulls off in an instant. I highly recommend.

OP, glad to hear you got back out there. Keep plugging away. It's another tool in the bag and I bet you enjoy it soon.
Click to expand...

I use the Hoody. Like it much better than foggles, especially since I wear glasses. The foggles were always a pain trying to keep them in place over my glasses.
 
The hood I usually use is an ancient Jeppesen one. Looks similar to ASA’s “Jiffyhood”. Slightly smaller.

e4ac822569d540c0d0763eb46bd1ec72.jpg


Don’t think Jepp branded ones exist anymore.

Just a curved piece of plastic and stretchy band. Fits under or over anything, works with any glasses, meets the KISS principle, hard to lose it on the floor in such a way you can’t just feel around for it without looking, etc. etc.

But as someone said, a folded chart jammed under a ball cap works, if it’s all you got. No need to make it complicated.

Post-it notes work fine for covering old style instruments too. Always chuckled at people spending real money on the suction cup things. :)
 
Rcmutz said:
I have read several of these posts. I will be a contrarian and say when I did my IR training, I found where the foggles to be disorientating. I hated the little bit of glimpses of the outside world, the sun moving during maneuvers, etc. I found in the clouds much easier. But then again, I found partial panel on the turn coordinator and airspeed and altitude instruments pretty straight forward.

Stick with it. It will help lower your insurance rates.
Click to expand...

I’m in a club and insurance is paid through the LLC. Each year we have to fill out a survey including total hours, PIC hours, last 12 months hours and dates of last flight review and medical, etc.

They also want to know if you are SEL, MEL, etc, as well as Private, Commercial, CFI, or ATP

Apparently no credit to pilots who have the IR which makes zero sense to me.
 
And the FAA somehow believes three hours of flight by reference to instruments is going to do a VFR Pilot any good...:rolleyes:
 
MauleSkinner said:
And the FAA somehow believes three hours of flight by reference to instruments is going to do a VFR Pilot any good...:rolleyes:
Click to expand...
I personally know a pilot that was saved by those three hours of training during an inadvertent IMC encounter at night. Three hours isn’t much but it’s more than none.

There is a difference between being in IMC, setting up for an approach, navigating, communicating and maintaining situational awareness V.S. keeping the sunny side up while you escape back to VMC conditions.
 
Hang 4 said:
One small thing that tripped me up relates to approach clearances and might have contributed to your task saturation. It seemed to me that copying your filed flight plan clearance (CRAFT) gets so much emphasis that approach clearances get lost. If you're on vectors you'll get the "you are X miles from Y fix, cross at or above, cleared for the RNAV 36. For the longest time I was focused on why the heck is he telling me where I already know I am, that I lost the approach instructions and even forgot which approach/runway. Made my readbacks kind of uhm.. lousy. This was a perfect cue to forget the scan and task saturate. Part of my mental checklist now is to anticipate this call based on where I am on vectors and remember he's going to tell me fix, crossing altitude, approach. much easier now.
Click to expand...

The controllers will issue your clearance using the acronym "PTAC": Position, Turn to, Altititude, Clearance. You verify that you're in the posistion they think you are, turn to the heading, get the right altitude and proceed via the given clearance. You read back the "TAC" part of it. The controllers might leave out any part except the clearance. They also can say it really, really, fast. Anticipating what they're going to say makes it lots easier.

Also, as far as flying in clouds, I don't look out there at all if I'm hand flying. Nothing I need to see out there. First time heading into a cloud with my instructor, I went heads down as we headed towards the cloud. It felt like we were rushing towards a giant white wall and I knew that would mess with my mind.
 
mcdewey said:
Also, as far as flying in clouds, I don't look out there at all if I'm hand flying. Nothing I need to see out there. First time heading into a cloud with my instructor, I went heads down as we headed towards the cloud. It felt like we were rushing towards a giant white wall and I knew that would mess with my mind.
Click to expand...

Very good advice. If I'm going to punch into some clouds, I get on the instruments early (10-15 seconds) before penetration. I think it's much easier to transition from looking outside to instruments in this way.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
I personally know a pilot that was saved by those three hours of training during an inadvertent IMC encounter at night. Three hours isn’t much but it’s more than none.

There is a difference between being in IMC, setting up for an approach, navigating, communicating and maintaining situational awareness V.S. keeping the sunny side up while you escape back to VMC conditions.
Click to expand...
The gist of the comments in this thread doesn’t seem to be about anything more than keeping the sunny side up in the clouds.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
Ok.

what’s your point?
Click to expand...
My point is that if flying in the clouds is so earth-shattering for pilots with tens of hours or more of recent instrument training and/or an instrument rating who know they’re going into the clouds, how can one expect that the average pilot with three hours of training is going to be effective when he accidentally enters the clouds?

Seems to me it’s be just as effective to read a book or magazine article about instrument flying (I’ve known several pilots who survived that way), since it’s more about the pilot’s ability to apply what he’s learned than it is to have the training experience.
 
MauleSkinner said:
My point is that if flying in the clouds is so earth-shattering for pilots with tens of hours or more of recent instrument training and/or an instrument rating who know they’re going into the clouds, how can one expect that the average pilot with three hours of training is going to be effective when he accidentally enters the clouds?

Seems to me it’s be just as effective to read a book or magazine article about instrument flying (I’ve known several pilots who survived that way), since it’s more about the pilot’s ability to apply what he’s learned than it is to have the training experience.
Click to expand...

yeah. I responded with a situation exactly as you described where the three hours of training saved a life and pointed out there is a difference in escaping IMC and what @SixPapaCharlie was doing in the clouds.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
I don’t know? Was he not? Both positions are anecdotal.
Click to expand...
I didn’t say he wasn’t...if he was exactly average, my position is incorrect. You’re the one taking the position that he was exactly average.

but like I said, I’ve known more people who survived IMC by reading a book or magazine than by getting three hours of training. My position is that it’s less about the training than about the individual.
 
MauleSkinner said:
but like I said, I’ve known more people who survived IMC by reading a book or magazine than by getting three hours of training. My position is that it’s less about the training than about the individual.
Click to expand...
And you're a survey of exactly one (yourself).
 
MauleSkinner said:
I didn’t say he wasn’t...if he was exactly average, my position is incorrect. You’re the one taking the position that he was exactly average.

but like I said, I’ve known more people who survived IMC by reading a book or magazine than by getting three hours of training. My position is that it’s less about the training than about the individual.
Click to expand...
I don’t agree with you but I don’t disagree completely. The three hours alone without context is not much use. In context it helps immensely. It all depends on the instruction/training program.

The thread drift started by you scoffing at how ridiculous the FAA was only requiring 3 hours of training then go on to say you know several people saved by their reading habits.

I think my friend is very average. When I was a young high school aged private pilot I was average at best and I lived to learn from my inadvertent IMC because of what my instructor taught me in those 3 hours and the briefings surrounding the lessons.

Brian’s situation is very different than an inadvertent encounter and I don’t think it provides much insight into those types of events.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
Brian’s situation is very different than an inadvertent encounter and I don’t think it provides much insight into those types of events.
Click to expand...
Flying in the clouds is flying in the clouds. But you’re right...pilots being disoriented when intentionally flying in the clouds with extensive training is no indicator that a pilot with minimal training will be disoriented when accidentally entering the clouds.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Flying in the clouds is flying in the clouds. But you’re right...pilots being disoriented when intentionally flying in the clouds with extensive training is no indicator that a pilot with minimal training will be disoriented when accidentally entering the clouds.
Click to expand...
Lol. Sure. Just have to disagree on this one.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top