First time airplane buyer

Mjg2011

Mjg2011

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Mjg2011
I am looking to buy an Aeronca champ or similar airframe, but have a couple questions about the buying process (especially for listings far away from where I live). I found a plane I am interested in, but it is about a 10 hour drive from me. The listing looks good (flown regularly, somewhat recent fabric, good compressions on last annual, and low time cont a65), but I would like to check it out, get a prebuy on it, and fly it home if all goes well in one trip. Would you schedule a mechanic local to the plane or bring your own for the pre buy? Would you look at the plane first before getting a pre-buy (even on something as simple as a champ)? I don't want to be the guy who goes down to look at a plane with a pre-buy scheduled, and then find out the plane isn't in the condition I expected. I really don't want to waste the mechanic's time, and I don't want to spend the money on a pre-buy if I can already tell the plane isn't going to work out. I also really don't want to make more than one trip for the airplane (going down to see the plane, going down for a prebuy, and going down to pick the thing up). I appreciate any advise if any of you have dealt with a long distance purchase.
 
Lots of ways to do it. It's a lot to deal with in one trip; looking at it first, then arranging a prebuy, payment, arranging insurance (possibly requiring a checkout or some minimum hours), weather, etc. Two trips is more realistic.

When I bought my T-Craft (my first plane), I rented a Cessna and flew up to look at it (about 45 minutes IIRC) and get a ride with the seller. Then another trip in a rental with an A&P along to do the prebuy, then a third trip to bring it home, don't recall how I got there, that was 40 years ago.

When I bought my Starduster, I was in CT and the plane was in TN, ~1000 miles. I talked with the owner and the A&P who had been maintaining it, then flew commercial to Memphis to look at the plane. Because of the price and condition and my own mechanical ability I felt comfortable inspecting it myself. I also knew the A&P from an online forum and had discussed its various warts with him, the plane was rough but [mostly] airworthy. I didn't fly it but the owner demonstrated it (it was a single seater), agreed on a price, wrote a check, and took the paperwork home with the agreement I could leave it in his hangar for a month while I waited for better weather along my route home. During that month, there was time for my check to clear, I arranged insurance,sold my other plane, and got a familiarization ride in a 2 seat Starduster. Then bought a one way ticket to Memphis and flew it home, which was a four day adventure.

When I bought the Hatz, it was in MA, a 2 hour drive each way. I drove there once to look at it, another time to get a ride in it and talk to the A&P who maintained it (who had a very good reputation locally so I again didn't do a formal prebuy... he said he would have bought it himself if he had the money), and conclude the deal. Then a week or so at home to arrange insurance, and a buddy flew me up there in his plane to pick it up.
 
I have purchased a couple of airplanes,quite a distance away, after reviewing the logs ,I find a mechanic in the local area who has not maintained the aircraft and have them do a pre buy. I have my mechanic speak with the mechanic doing the pre buy.
 
It's a long drive but I wouldn't start the process with the expectation/hope that you'll only have to travel 1x. That could be setting yourself up for trouble.

I recommend:
1) Have seller send the logs to you and the mech who will maintain the plane. This is just to find red flags (e.g., flown 20h in the last 5 years, spent 10y out of annual, etc).
2) Go down to see the plane yourself. 10h driving is a long way. You should definitely see if a pilot buddy can fly you to save that time :). Better to waste your time (free) versus your A&Ps time ($$$/h).
3) If you like the plane sign a purchase agreement. Put a deposit down into escrow. He knows you're serious now. As part of that see if he'll move the plane to you for prebuy. Some will, many won't.
4) If you need to find a local mech, find someone who hasn't worked on the plane before if possible. DON'T use the mechanic he's been using.
5) IDK about getting your own mech to go down there. I've never asked any of my A&P contacts to travel for a prebuy and they've never offered. But if I did ask I'm sure their time isn't cheap. If you've got somebody who is flexible and will do it for a price that isn't cost-prohibitive, great. If not, using an out-of-town mech isn't the worst thing in the world. They can coordinate specific items with your local mech.
 
I have bought and sold many aircraft, I have never bought one without looking at it and flying it, end of story for me a hour flight in the plane tells me all I need to know , you didn’t mention a title search I always do that AOPA can do one for you , but I am a A and P so that helps I have flown across the country on a airline and came back on a airline because the owner was not honest with me and I agree if your not knowledgeable on how to do it it’s not a one trip deal have fun
 
Mjg2011 said:
I don't want to be the guy who goes down to look at a plane with a pre-buy scheduled, and then find out the plane isn't in the condition I expected. I really don't want to waste the mechanic's time, and I don't want to spend the money on a pre-buy if I can already tell the plane isn't going to work out. I also really don't want to make more than one trip for the airplane (going down to see the plane, going down for a prebuy, and going down to pick the thing up).
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There is too much variability and too many unknowns to satisfy all of your requirements at once. You may kiss a few frogs before you find the One True Plane(tm).

As a first time buyer, you don't know what you don't know. You are fixating on small potatoes (cost of travel, cost of prebuy), when even the acquisition cost of the plane is just the cover charge to get in the club; also small potatoes compared to TCO, especially for the first few years of ownership.

I had a prebuy done by a local mechanic and then a friend ferried the plane halfway across the country for me. A lot was missed on the prebuy, but it only took a few short years and tens of thousands of dollars to fix everything up. If I had a do over, I'd probably be inclined to buy something more local.

At the end of the day, it takes the time it takes and it costs what it costs. Buy a pretty plane that makes you happy.
 
tbroadhurst said:
I have bought and sold many aircraft, I have never bought one without looking at it and flying it, end of story for me a hour flight in the plane tells me all I need to know , you didn’t mention a title search I always do that AOPA can do one for you , but I am a A and P so that helps I have flown across the country on a airline and came back on a airline because the owner was not honest with me and I agree if your not knowledgeable on how to do it it’s not a one trip deal have fun
Click to expand...
For 10 bucks you can do a title/lien search from home on your own. I would do that first if you like the plane even before looking at the logs.
Here is the link to do that. https://aircraft.faa.gov/e.gov/nd/
 
1) Check all logs first (preferably by your mechanic or yourself)

2) Negotiate price, deposit and contract

3) Title search?

4) Seller delivers airplane to your prebuy mechanic (find one that’s at least an hour away so the opinion is not hugely biased - not the same airport that previous work was done)

5) Re-negotiate repairs and price

6) Pay balance, fly to pick up airplane, get an instructor if needed or maybe the seller will take you up, there’s a form to register the airplane on the FAA website I think, print and sign, bill of sale (if desired), insurance (if desired), fly yourself home or hire a ferry pilot.
 
The high variability of mechanics means that whether you hire one at the destination or bring your own you’ll likely find some stuff missed.

We had our own guy went and he missed a rather expensive engine vibration issue, and he also shrug at the state of the exhaust which cost us more later on. And he’s not even a bad mechanic just that he didn’t noticed the vibrations and he thought we could fixe the exhaust later on.

So the part 7 about spending a lot more later on will likely be true. I think to fix all the issues (more than the 2 above) we put in about 30k above the price of purchase. And that’s money that will never come back in a sale. And we aren’t done yet the stabilator bearings needs changing now.
 
Which kind of tells us, if your airplane works, keep it. Don’t get any ideas to sell it and buy something else.
 
Review the logs first. Many sellers will have the logs scanned into a digital document, so you can review them with your mechanic without making a trip. The logs, if you read them carefully, will tell you a lot about the how well the plane was maintained. If you read between the lines, you can spot sketchy engines, prop strikes, hard landings, and much-too-deferred maintenance. If the logs check out, go see the plane in person, take it up for a test flight, and make sure everything works (or note what doesn't). At this point you will likely have enough information to make a tentative decision to purchase. If you know the reputation of the mechanic who maintained the plane and are satisfied with the logs, you may be good to go ahead with a purchase, with price negotiated based on the condition in which you found the plane in-person. Otherwise, you may want to arrange a mechanic of your choice to come with you, or if they are willing to fly the plane to you for a quick pre-buy inspection prior to purchase. A pre-buy is not an annual inpection, but just a quick go-though to ensure there are no red flags. (Reviewing the logs will ferret out some of the red flags if present.)

For my current plane, I drove out to the owner's airport (about 5 hours), reviewed the logs myself, and took it up for a 1 hour test flight. There were some cosmetic issues, but all the avionics worked and the plane was in proper trim and performed by the book. (Sub-book performance would be a red flag.) I made a deposit, and arranged for the owner to deliver the plane to my airport for a quick pre-buy inspection by my mechanic, with the expectation I would hand over a cashier's check for the agreed price the same day if everything checked out OK. (It did. Basic engine check OK, no internal airframe corrosion or deteriorated rigging.) The plane was maintained by a well-known Grumman mechanic in the NE, so I was relatively confident that the plane was properly maintained and did not expect any major issues. I was already trained in Grummans (AA-1 through AA-5B) so transition training was not required. (However when I bought my first plane, an AA-1A, the owner/CFII/ATP gave me 1 hour of transition training for free prior to sending me on my way.) Transition training is highly recommended for a new type, even if you read the POH like Sherlock Holmes. All in all, my purchase experiences were pleasant for both seller and buyer. I did find a clunker or two looking for my first plane, and the same when helping a fellow pilot find his forever C-172. There are some really badly maintained examples out there. We saw a lot of planes that we would not be comfortable taking a test flight in after reading the logs and looking at the aircraft.
 
If you are serious about buying something, put deposit money in an escrow account. One email or call gets the deposit attached the plane. It also shows you are serious.

No one in their right mind will give you the actual logs. They should have the logs in PDF form. If not, you will have to make a trip to check the logs for red flags.
 
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