gsengle
Pattern Altitude
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Gsengle
And no DPE is going to want to be in actual in an unknown airplane.
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First real IMC. Holy smokes!
- Thread starter labbadabba
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And no DPE is going to want to be in actual in an unknown airplane.
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scottfromboston
Pre-takeoff checklist
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Scott
I had about 35 simulated hours before my first time in IMC. What a different experience - do it once and you'll never risk inadvertent IMC as a VFR pilot again.
Sim time helps, but you can't replicate it.
Had the pleasure of 1.2 in the soup on Sunday; my first solo imc actually, including a missed RNAV and two ILS approaches. Fun times.
Sim time helps, but you can't replicate it.
Had the pleasure of 1.2 in the soup on Sunday; my first solo imc actually, including a missed RNAV and two ILS approaches. Fun times.
My DPE did that for one of the approaches on my IFR checkride (24 years ago), but it was not my first time in IMC.
Last I heard the FAA strongly discourages checkrides in actual IMC conditions but I don't believe it has been absolutely forbidden.
A number of years ago I don't think the FAA was so up tight with it, or it might have just been the examiner I flew with. I did my initial instrument checkride with a pop-up clearance that we obtained part of the way through the checkride to allow us to continue. There didn't seem to be problems with it at that time.
arnoha
Cleared for Takeoff
I'm only VFR, but my 3 hours was partially done in hard IMC and I've had hard IMC dual after that. My instructor, at the time, had no qualms at all about IMC. After 16,000 hours instructing, I guess it builds confidence. I remember just how surprisingly disorienting it is. You think, how hard could this be? Just look at the instruments and fly. Just like unusual attitudes training under the hood, right? And then you're staring at the instruments wondering why nothing makes sense, even though it made complete sense one minute ago.
tree96
Line Up and Wait
We went up in actual a couple times when I was training. It is a sobering experience for sure. When I hit imc solo after getting my rating it still scared the **** out of me, but I had the confidence to tackle it thanks to being exposed to it while training.
labbadabba
Pattern Altitude
Yep, that's EXACTLY what it felt like.
arnoha
Cleared for Takeoff
I remember being told that that is what it would feel like. I acknowledged the other's experience, but still had that subconscious doubt about it. It wasn't actually materialized thought, but it was a basic confidence that comes with ignorance. "Yeah, but I won't react that way!" (although more of a feeling than actual thoughts)
And then there I was. Just like they said. Humble pie is a *****.
arnoha
Cleared for Takeoff
Not sure of your antecedent. Which "this" are you referring to? There are many being discussed.
I don't think anyone knows how they will react until it happens.
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falconkidding
Line Up and Wait
The hard part for me was being able to see "widescreen" and not through the limited foggles. Got massively disoriented for 5-10 seconds when I took the foggles off just adjusting to being able to see everything.
Joshuajayg
Line Up and Wait
My first inadvertent VFR into IMC didn't turn out horrible but it was a sobering experience. When I got my instrument cert, I didn't have any approaches in actual IMC. My first real approach was right after my commercial checkride in light icing conditions. I really would like more actual instrument time.
MAKG1
Touchdown! Greaser!
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Replacing disorientation with automation surprise is not necessarily a good tradeoff.Sometimes the button you can push and let the airplane take over until you get your bearings makes sense.
I don't like engaging an autopilot right at a critical moment. Before or after, so I can make sure it does the right thing and doesn't glitch.
Transition to actual, such as passing through a ceiling, will come with practice. The trick is to go heads down several seconds early. Don't look out the window very close to clouds.
azure
Final Approach
Good point. When I inadvertently went IMC while VFR, I was already on the A/P so I kept it on and used the altitude preselect to start descending (long story, but it was the only safe way out of the clouds without busting airspace). I sure didn't trust my life to the A/P though. As I've written elsewhere, the thing occasionally went into a descending spiral (basically a "death spiral"), so I kept an eagle eye on the gauges. If that had happened, could I have held it together flying manually? I'll never know... though I never experienced anything more than mild SD during IR training. But the fear that came from knowing I was in a situation I shouldn't be in took more of a toll than I expected.
As has been said, everyone reacts differently, and you won't know how you react until it happens.
LongRoadBob
Cleared for Takeoff
For the sim time, maybe if you had a friend that from time to time tipped your chair to the right, left, back, forward
?
Caramon13
Pattern Altitude
My first experience was very much like the OP. Hood time is nothing like actual IMC as you found. Good on you for actually flying in those conditions BEFORE your ride. I kinda wish I did more of that, though I had a little.
I love flying in IMC, or on an IFR plan in general. Especially on longer flights as it really does relieve the constant airspace, weather, TFR checking that you have to constantly do when going 1200 VFR.
I got my IFR in 2015 and flew my family up to NC for Christmas that year. Could not have made the trip if I didn't have my rating.
My currency is expired now as we have like 2 days here in FL where IMC is low enough to actually DO an approach in actual conditions. I thought about going up with a safety pilot and getting current as I'm in that weird 6 month soft expiration window but there's no point.
I'll probably renew it at my BFR next year, we'll see. Good luck with your rating and when you do get it, go up as soon as you can in actual again, by yourself. Nothing more challenging then flying to minimums single pilot IFR (for me anyway).
First IFR flight for me after my rating was to KLAL and I remember shooting the ILS to minimums and STILL not seeing the ground at 200 ft. That, was fun
I love flying in IMC, or on an IFR plan in general. Especially on longer flights as it really does relieve the constant airspace, weather, TFR checking that you have to constantly do when going 1200 VFR.
I got my IFR in 2015 and flew my family up to NC for Christmas that year. Could not have made the trip if I didn't have my rating.
My currency is expired now as we have like 2 days here in FL where IMC is low enough to actually DO an approach in actual conditions. I thought about going up with a safety pilot and getting current as I'm in that weird 6 month soft expiration window but there's no point.
I'll probably renew it at my BFR next year, we'll see. Good luck with your rating and when you do get it, go up as soon as you can in actual again, by yourself. Nothing more challenging then flying to minimums single pilot IFR (for me anyway).
First IFR flight for me after my rating was to KLAL and I remember shooting the ILS to minimums and STILL not seeing the ground at 200 ft. That, was fun
mscard88
Touchdown! Greaser!
First IFR flight for me after my rating was to KLAL and I remember shooting the ILS to minimums and STILL not seeing the ground at 200 ft. That, was fun
But did you land or go miss?
Caramon13
Pattern Altitude
But did you land or go miss?
Hah I went missed! I thought I saw lights below, tower confirmed that they had them all the way up, but I couldn't make out the runway. I did three approaches, a VOR, ILS and RNAV. Even went and did a hold for practice.
I had my Garmin VIRB camera on the dash to record the whole thing and when I went back home I went through the footage to the three misses and BARELY saw a couple lights on the runway at 200 FT.
mscard88
Touchdown! Greaser!
Take a look at FAR 91.175
(c) Operation below DA/ DH or MDA. Except as provided in paragraph (l) of this section, where a DA/DH or MDA is applicable, no pilot may operate an aircraft, except a military aircraft of the United States, below the authorized MDA or continue an approach below the authorized DA/DH unless—
(1) The aircraft is continuously in a position from which a descent to a landing on the intended runway can be made at a normal rate of descent using normal maneuvers, and for operations conducted under part 121 or part 135 unless that descent rate will allow touchdown to occur within the touchdown zone of the runway of intended landing;
(2) The flight visibility is not less than the visibility prescribed in the standard instrument approach being used; and
(3) Except for a Category II or Category III approach where any necessary visual reference requirements are specified by the Administrator, at least one of the following visual references for the intended runway is distinctly visible and identifiable to the pilot:
(i) The approach light system, except that the pilot may not descend below 100 feet above the touchdown zone elevation using the approach lights as a reference unless the red terminating bars or the red side row bars are also distinctly visible and identifiable.
(ii) The threshold.
(iii) The threshold markings.
(iv) The threshold lights.
(v) The runway end identifier lights.
(vi) The visual approach slope indicator.
(vii) The touchdown zone or touchdown zone markings.
(viii) The touchdown zone lights.
(ix) The runway or runway markings.
(x) The runway lights.
(c) Operation below DA/ DH or MDA. Except as provided in paragraph (l) of this section, where a DA/DH or MDA is applicable, no pilot may operate an aircraft, except a military aircraft of the United States, below the authorized MDA or continue an approach below the authorized DA/DH unless—
(1) The aircraft is continuously in a position from which a descent to a landing on the intended runway can be made at a normal rate of descent using normal maneuvers, and for operations conducted under part 121 or part 135 unless that descent rate will allow touchdown to occur within the touchdown zone of the runway of intended landing;
(2) The flight visibility is not less than the visibility prescribed in the standard instrument approach being used; and
(3) Except for a Category II or Category III approach where any necessary visual reference requirements are specified by the Administrator, at least one of the following visual references for the intended runway is distinctly visible and identifiable to the pilot:
(i) The approach light system, except that the pilot may not descend below 100 feet above the touchdown zone elevation using the approach lights as a reference unless the red terminating bars or the red side row bars are also distinctly visible and identifiable.
(ii) The threshold.
(iii) The threshold markings.
(iv) The threshold lights.
(v) The runway end identifier lights.
(vi) The visual approach slope indicator.
(vii) The touchdown zone or touchdown zone markings.
(viii) The touchdown zone lights.
(ix) The runway or runway markings.
(x) The runway lights.
Caramon13
Pattern Altitude
TheGolfPilot
Line Up and Wait
My first trip into IMC was the day after getting my rating. El Paso had a rare low overcast day. I decided the fly and right as I entered the clouds I had a holy crap this is not what it's like under the hood feeling. I remember looking outside then quickly checked my instruments to make sure what I thought I was seeing wasn't true. I didn't have an instructor with me, so I sort of put myself in a "you either know it or your not going to have a good time" situation. Flew the localizer 4 and I broke out a couple hundred feet before minimums. Taxied off went back to the Run up area and got a new clearance I needed a moment to take in and process the disorientation I had just been exposed to.
A couple years later I live in the SF Bay Area and IMC is a pretty regular occurrence. But I'll never forget my first time
A couple years later I live in the SF Bay Area and IMC is a pretty regular occurrence. But I'll never forget my first time
Timbeck2
Final Approach
I was with my instructor is his Arrow in hard IMC a week ago. I flew from the right seat. Sobering moment is that I now know how JFK Jr got disoriented. I felt like I was straight and level when I was in a 30 degree bank to the right.
mscard88
Touchdown! Greaser!
Trust your instruments, not what you THINK you're feeling. Works good, last long time.
Timbeck2
Final Approach
And I realized what a life saver auto pilot (just a wing leveler) can be in that situation. I don't have that on my plane.
EminiTrader
Cleared for Takeoff
Seems the last few weeks in Florida have been minimums every time I fly. Definitely current the past few weeks. Geesh...
gsengle
Pattern Altitude
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Gsengle
I won't fly real IMC trip single pilot without a reliable autopilot...
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Caramon13
Pattern Altitude
MAKG1
Touchdown! Greaser!
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MAKG
Over-relying on an autopilot can be a killer, too.
I have only about 10 hours of actual IMC, but I've already had two avionics failures in the clouds. Two autopilot failures as well, but those were in VMC. If I hadn't been hand flying during the avionics failures, at least one of them would have caused some serious deviations right away.
If you're disoriented and your autopilot yanks a control surface to the stop, your odds of surviving are greatly reduced.
The correct thing to do is learn how to manage the disorientation if/when it happens. If the autopilot is on and behaving, leave it on. If it is off, leave it off. An automation surprise at that instant is not at all good.
If the autopilot is truly a life-saver at any point, you are not proficient enough to fly solo in IMC. That should set off alarm bells, and you need the services of a CFII or at least a good safety pilot (in VMC).
azure
Final Approach
Yes, that first time is always sobering, even if it all goes smoothly. It's like your first solo, the realization that there is no one else aboard to pull your a$$ out of the fire suddenly hits home and you hope your training is as good as your CFII and DPE believed. The good news: it nearly always is.
(My issue on that first solo IMC wasn't SD but rather worrying about ice, since it was January, there was a cold front on its way and I had a window of about an hour to get it done and on the ground before it wouldn't be safe to do so without FIKI. I even thought I saw a trace of rime - the temp was right at 0C in a thin layer around 2000 - but having picked up real ice since then I suspect it was just liquid condensation. Still enough to make for a very nervous flight. Prolly should have put it off till next time.)
Radar Contact
Pattern Altitude
When I was younger and flying for a living I had to a lot. Now that I don't have to, I'm in your boat completely.
For me, it's more of a convenience than a necessity. For longer trips I'd definitely like to have an AP but I won't scrub a trip because it's not working. It's definitely a lot tougher hand flying in hard IMC but it's not a deal breaker for me.