First real go around yesterday

Richard said:
Excuse for what, sir? I'm asking the questions, can I be in charge for a while? Thank you very much. (channeling R Lee Ermy in FMJ)

I already have a handheld. That is tangential to the real issue.

You must know of those radio cowboys who are just compelled to call out every rock and bush in the patt. Or, the yahoo making wildly inaccurate position reports. Look kids, a radio doesn't necessarily add to safety of flight, it may even degrade safety.

Who here when hearing a position report in the patt will concentrate their attention to that perceived point of space and time? Meanwhile, your head swivel grinds to a halt as you burn holes looking for that plane. Only then do you see it out of the corner of your eye at a place different than what you expected.

Like practicing night landings with no landing light maybe y'all should get comfortable flying the patt with no radio. A radio is a tool but it won't cover the deficiency of the nut on the mic.

Once, I was cut off while on base ready to turn final. It was a Falcon 10. His initial call was 35 out from that non-towered field. I had just powered up for the go on a T&G when he made that call. By the time I was base to turn final I noticed him on 3 mile final. I just flowed with it, flew my pattern and went around. At first I was a bit miffed but then realized it was another training opportunity. Change in attitude I guess.

I've been intruded upon lots of times. A couple times I was the culprit. Don't you train for the unexpected?
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I train for the unexpected. But would prefer to not have to utilize that skill because some guy is too cheap and lazy to buy a $200 hand held and use it.

If you want to skim the river at 500' AGL in the cub and not make any calls, be my guest. Expecting the 6 people converging on the airport doing 2-10x your cruise speed to see and avoid you is asking a lot, even if the regs say they must and physics don't really care about regulations. A handheld and a wild ass guess of a position report would help. We've all made some boneheaded position reports but knowing your altitude and how far out you are is 1,000,000 times better than nothing. It's cheap insurance, I see no reason not to have and use one other than stubbornness.
 
I think we should take away all radios. I'm tired of jack wagons that announce every time they shift their butt in the seat over the CTAF and just assume that since they are talking away on their damn radio everything is cool and they cut me off in the pattern causing me to go around.

The radio is not the problem nor is it the solution. It is the pilot. Poorly skilled, inconsiderate or unsafe pilots exist in our airspace. Some have radios and some don't.

That said I like radios. AND some of the airplanes i fly don't have them installed. Regardless of which airplane I am flying any particular day, I'm still the same professional, considerate and safe pilot.

Furthermore....broad statements about other pilots "stupidity" for not acting in a way you deem "smart" says a lot more about you than the other "stupid" pilots.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
I think we should take away all radios. I'm tired of jack wagons that announce every time they shift their butt in the seat over the CTAF and just assume that since they are talking away on their damn radio everything is cool and they cut me off in the pattern causing me to go around.

The radio is not the problem nor is it the solution. It is the pilot. Poorly skilled, inconsiderate or unsafe pilots exist in our airspace. Some have radios and some don't.

That said I like radios. AND some of the airplanes i fly don't have them installed. Regardless of which airplane I am flying any particular day, I'm still the same professional, considerate and safe pilot.

Furthermore....broad statements about other pilots "stupidity" for not acting in a way you deem "smart" says a lot more about you than the other "stupid" pilots.
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If yourapproacging a pattern without announcing yourself and your intentions, you are neither a pro, certainly not considerate and certainly not safe. Your a menace!
 
Tarheelpilot said:
I think we should take away all radios. I'm tired of jack wagons that announce every time they shift their butt in the seat over the CTAF and just assume that since they are talking away on their damn radio everything is cool and they cut me off in the pattern causing me to go around.

The radio is not the problem nor is it the solution. It is the pilot. Poorly skilled, inconsiderate or unsafe pilots exist in our airspace. Some have radios and some don't.

That said I like radios. AND some of the airplanes i fly don't have them installed. Regardless of which airplane I am flying any particular day, I'm still the same professional, considerate and safe pilot.

Furthermore....broad statements about other pilots "stupidity" for not acting in a way you deem "smart" says a lot more about you than the other "stupid" pilots.
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I would say the inconsiderate pilots are the ones without radios.
 
If and until the regs require a radio to leave the ground, flying without a radio remains legal.
Those who are all indignant over the non radio aircraft are making judgements based on what they want, not on what The Administrator has determined to be acceptable.

Having said that, it appears that the Cub pilot in the original post has an attitude issue that is causing some safety concerns. Instead of complaining on here, perhaps the OP should call the local FSDO and discuss it with the Chief Inspector. As an assistant to The Administrator he has methods of helping a pilot see the error of his ways.
 
Amazing.
My primary flight instructor, splendid pilot, admonished early and often, "Bernoulli had a lot more to do with aviation than Marconi did. Fly the airplane, Girl, not the dang radio! Look out the window! Never assume that just because you made a radio call that anybody heard you!" He was most emphatic that radios were tools,but optional ones. The eyeballs were nonoptional.

Best flight I ever had was shortly after earning a radio-intensive Instrument rating, I was asked to ferry a brand new no-radio airplane to its new home 1000 miles from Wichita. What a fabulous back-to-basics experience! And my old CFI was right. This was before handhelds were in common use, and after the first uneasy half hour, it was a blessed freedom from yakketyyak. Didn't run over anybody, either. See and avoid worked fine.
 
I bought a hand held for my Cub, because it doesn't have a horn.

Now I can use it just to be sure no one is in my way. Before I had that I had to assume that I was invisible to other aircraft and also had to look around all the time. What a pain that was.
 
Its truly amazing that I see people with the same attitudes here then in my work.

Great, you had a wonderful experience without a radio. Can you extrapolate that experience to form a comprehensive analysis of what is best? Of course not. If I drive and run every red light, and dont get in an accident, but love that freedom, does that make it acceptable for every drive? Of course not. Its absurd.
Again, a radio doesn't supplant good pilotage, but I have failed to see anyone demonstrate data why a radio is a bad idea other then an opinion. If radios are required in congested airways for a reason, then there is probably a good reason to use one. I haven't flown in 20 years and just got back to flying this year, and this attitude both astonishes me and frightens me at the same time.

What you all fail to realize is that if you don't adopt best practices in flying, you will be forced to by the government. Remember that phrase "best practices" as you are going to hear it a lot in the next 10 years in all government associated entities.
All you have to do is look at AvaMed in medicine to see the effects of dumb doctors not policing themselves which subsequently led to the Sunshine Act because they failed to mend their ways

And someone mentioned earlier that they felt radios were more dangerous then not having one. Id like to see published data on that.
 
I'll take a "wildly inaccurate" position report from an aircraft entering the are over no report at all.

Even the ultralight leaving a grass strip where I landed a couple weeks ago had a damn radio. And he's part 105.
 
Dr. O said:
If and until the regs require a radio to leave the ground, flying without a radio remains legal.
Those who are all indignant over the non radio aircraft are making judgements based on what they want, not on what The Administrator has determined to be acceptable.

Having said that, it appears that the Cub pilot in the original post has an attitude issue that is causing some safety concerns. Instead of complaining on here, perhaps the OP should call the local FSDO and discuss it with the Chief Inspector. As an assistant to The Administrator he has methods of helping a pilot see the error of his ways.
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Didn't realize I was complaining...I said my story and it blew up. All I did was ask really, in a condescending way of course. Haha I love it. It seems more are arguing the fact that NORDO is okay and perfectly fine than I was about this guy cutting me off and "not looking outside". Yet I'm the complainer in the wrong.

Anyway we are in the pattern, I would say the pattern is an environment of heightened awareness. Make your calls if you can. If NORDO be considerate because we don't know what your thinking. Again I was turning final with my left wing low and can't see downwind, base, or final until I roll out. Yet it's my fault this guy cut me off right in front of me. So if he hit me it's okay or then would being NORDO and not see and avoiding become a problem.

Look because something is legal and has been done for 100years doesn't mean it's safe. Otherwise the radio would not have been placed in aircraft. Will this be last encounter...nope I'm sure of it. But no reason to go run and tell to the local FSDO. 1. Nothing will happen and 2. We all know where snitches end up:D
 
Stryker1112 said:
And someone mentioned earlier that they felt radios were more dangerous then not having one. Id like to see published data on that.
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If you mean my post #40 that is not what I said. I said radios could act to degrade flight safety.

  • Pilots prioritize radio comms over navigating.
  • Comms may introduce complacency. A pilot who relies on comms may think they've done 'their part'.
  • Reliance on comms may foment the attitude that a pilot 'owns' that particular airspace--they may adopt the attitude that the pattern revolves around them rather than adopting the attitude that they are but one part in a larger system involving other aircraft.
  • Reliance on comms may introduce a lackadaisical attitude. A pilot may think that if a conflict arises the other pilot will notify them.
These are some of what I can think of off the top of my head. They are based on my experiences. I have flown in the same cockpit with some of these pilots, including active CFIs. I have also seen actions in the pattern which led me to believe at least one of the above did apply.

These things would not necessarily apply at all airfields or all the time. Certainly they do not apply to all pilots, NORDO or not, even part of the time. However, there are some airfields which seem to have a higher incidence than other airfields. It is these airfields that I have in mind. If you want to see a real flying circus of the Keystone Kops variety go to Page, AZ during tour season. Or KAJO Corona or KDVT Deer Valley. Incidentally, DVT is towered.

I use the comm radio. But I have also turned the volume down so low I could barely hear. That would be because the jackals were howling. I did not feel that doing so increased risk to flight safety.
 
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Reliance on comms may foment the attitude that a pilot 'owns' that particular airspace--they may adopt the attitude that the pattern revolves around them rather than adopting the attitude that they are but one part in a larger system involving other aircraft.
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A word about that, I've heard pilots get into arguments about right of way in the pattern at non-towered airfields. At KDVO Gnoss, KPRB Paso Robles, and KIGM Kingman I've heard one pilot quite testily growl at another pilot to claim his apparent right as first born, that he was No. 1 to land. Afterall, pilot #1 had made his call before the other pilot. Nevermind he was on 10 mile straight-in final in a rickety C or P. Meanwhile, their ongoing bickering jammed the freq rendering it useless to other aircraft. I've even seen what looked like the beginning of a dogfight all because of the 'hierarchy' of the radio. The smart pilots buzzed off until it was safe again.

OTOH, if one or the other was NORDO they would likely just fit in with the flow. Or maybe not. Yet the appearance is that the comm radio was central to these antics.
 
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If you hold up to your end of the bargain, NORDO isn't particularly a bad thing. I have been cut off in the pattern before by someone who didn't think he had to do his part of see and avoid.

Embrace technology - as long as you maintain your vigilance, there are no downsides.
 
I have a radio in my Mooney. Several,in fact. Yet my use of these marvelous gadgets in a standard manner has not prevented several near misses, when pilots in equally well-equipped aircraft weren't using theirs or paying attention. One of those recent ones was absolutely my fault...I was flying the ILS inbound on a calm low-marginal day to an unfamiliar field, calling CTAF as soon as Center released me, as well as short final. I saw the departing aircraft from the opposite runway in time not to trade paint, then realized, eventually, that somehow the Unicom freq I dialed in and used so assiduously, was not the familiar one I thought I double-checked, but a new one, off by .05. Oooops! Good thing both of us were looking out the window. Circling to land might have been even worse, as that was the direction the departing aircraft turned. Eyeballs, girl. Use yer eyeballs.
 
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Haegon said:
If you hold up to your end of the bargain, NORDO isn't particularly a bad thing. I have been cut off in the pattern before by someone who didn't think he had to do his part of see and avoid.

Embrace technology - as long as you maintain your vigilance, there are no downsides.
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We've all been cut off. And likely, we've all cut off someone, or will.

To me this is not about 'embracing' technology. Being NORDO should not infer that one is a Luddite. It is about understanding the radio is to be relegated to the support role. S&A is item one. Yes a you say, maintain your vigilance.
 
Wow. The big radio/nordo debate rages.

T/F...

Radios make better pilots.
Radios make pilots better.
Radios will save your spine.
Radios will make you stop for red lights.
Radios should be required because the fedguv is out of control.

Nordo planes are because the pilot is too cheap.
Nordo planes are due to people being scared to talk.
Nordo planes attack radio planes.
Nordo planes are piloted by geriatric jerkwads.
Nordo planes have the right of way over radio planes.
Nordo planes have to yield to radio planes.
Nordo planes should be excluded from busy non-towered airports.
Nordo planes need to stay out of the way of radio planes.
 
I like talking on the radio, for no other reason that it gets boring talking to myself.
 
Sac Arrow said:
I like talking on the radio, for no other reason that it gets boring talking to myself.
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I do, too, and I love it when there is a radio in the airplane. In that case I just pretend that no one can either see me OR hear me. ;)
 
Not sure I've seen this raised, but if all participants were flying the standard pattern, they should have seen each other much before short final. Who was not flying the pattern?

Ok and legal does not equate smart. If the yellow guy cut the pattern, and didn't announce, and was higher than the OP, then he's in the wrong. Yes, SAA worked, but just barely.

OP, Were you flying the pattern as published? How did the Yellow guy fly the pattern?
 
Richard said:
Excuse for what, sir? I'm asking the questions, can I be in charge for a while? Thank you very much. (channeling R Lee Ermy in FMJ)

I already have a handheld. That is tangential to the real issue.

You must know of those radio cowboys who are just compelled to call out every rock and bush in the patt. Or, the yahoo making wildly inaccurate position reports. Look kids, a radio doesn't necessarily add to safety of flight, it may even degrade safety.

Who here when hearing a position report in the patt will concentrate their attention to that perceived point of space and time? Meanwhile, your head swivel grinds to a halt as you burn holes looking for that plane. Only then do you see it out of the corner of your eye at a place different than what you expected.

Like practicing night landings with no landing light maybe y'all should get comfortable flying the patt with no radio. A radio is a tool but it won't cover the deficiency of the nut on the mic.

Once, I was cut off while on base ready to turn final. It was a Falcon 10. His initial call was 35 out from that non-towered field. I had just powered up for the go on a T&G when he made that call. By the time I was base to turn final I noticed him on 3 mile final. I just flowed with it, flew my pattern and went around. At first I was a bit miffed but then realized it was another training opportunity. Change in attitude I guess.

I've been intruded upon lots of times. A couple times I was the culprit. Don't you train for the unexpected?
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Hear hear!!
 
bjohnsonmn said:
Not sure I've seen this raised, but if all participants were flying the standard pattern, they should have seen each other much before short final. Who was not flying the pattern?

Ok and legal does not equate smart. If the yellow guy cut the pattern, and didn't announce, and was higher than the OP, then he's in the wrong. Yes, SAA worked, but just barely.

OP, Were you flying the pattern as published? How did the Yellow guy fly the pattern?
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I was flying the normal left hand pattern. He was higher than me as well. His pattern appeared to me military style. Meaning not square. But again I never saw him until my wing came up after turning final.
 
Radios make better pilots.
Radios make pilots better.
Radios will save your spine.
Radios will make you stop for red lights.
Radios should be required because the fedguv is out of control.

Nordo planes are because the pilot is too cheap.
Nordo planes are due to people being scared to talk.
Nordo planes attack radio planes.
Nordo planes are piloted by geriatric jerkwads.
Nordo planes have the right of way over radio planes.
Nordo planes have to yield to radio planes.
Nordo planes should be excluded from busy non-towered airports.
Nordo planes need to stay out of the way of radio planes.
__________________

LOL.........personally the comment at the beginning of the thread......."assume all yellow cubs are NORDO" has pretty much covered my encounters in the past.........
 
I've been reading the "NORDO should be illegal" threads since the dawn of the internet, and they never, ever change.

I like flying with the radios off. I flew home from OSH, over 1200 miles, without talking to a soul.

That said -- I never, ever enter the pattern sans radio. It's one thing to cruise along at 9500' in blessed silence. Its sheer lunacy to not use a radio near an airport, IMHO.

So there. I like and want it both ways. lol
 
simtech said:
I don't call it over the radio. I speak it out loud to myself. I say it before I turn base to final to myself by looking. Same with taking off before I take the active. I look to make sure I don't see anyone on final. Nothing is said over the radio just my intercom to assure myself. That is all.:D
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Mine is "Pattern is clear" but same thing. I want to know that both endsare free of errant traffic if possible. Saying it outload is the same s doing a checklist.
 
Jay Honeck said:
I've been reading the "NORDO should be illegal" threads since the dawn of the internet, and they never, ever change.

I like flying with the radios off. I flew home from OSH, over 1200 miles, without talking to a soul.

That said -- I never, ever enter the pattern sans radio. It's one thing to cruise along at 9500' in blessed silence. Its sheer lunacy to not use a radio near an airport, IMHO.

So there. I like and want it both ways. lol
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My closest calls have been enroute. Closest one was a C172 with a transponder off doing a little extracurricular IFR dropping down through a cloud deck. ATC couldn't see him. I could tell he was wearing glasses and read his N-Number. Close enough to recognize the plane as the local FBOs rental and called them and asked them to relay a message to him about my feelings for his piloting technique.
 
Richard said:
Excuse for what, sir? I'm asking the questions, can I be in charge for a while? Thank you very much. (channeling R Lee Ermy in FMJ)

I already have a handheld. That is tangential to the real issue.

You must know of those radio cowboys who are just compelled to call out every rock and bush in the patt. Or, the yahoo making wildly inaccurate position reports. Look kids, a radio doesn't necessarily add to safety of flight, it may even degrade safety.

Who here when hearing a position report in the patt will concentrate their attention to that perceived point of space and time? Meanwhile, your head swivel grinds to a halt as you burn holes looking for that plane. Only then do you see it out of the corner of your eye at a place different than what you expected.

Like practicing night landings with no landing light maybe y'all should get comfortable flying the patt with no radio. A radio is a tool but it won't cover the deficiency of the nut on the mic.

Once, I was cut off while on base ready to turn final. It was a Falcon 10. His initial call was 35 out from that non-towered field. I had just powered up for the go on a T&G when he made that call. By the time I was base to turn final I noticed him on 3 mile final. I just flowed with it, flew my pattern and went around. At first I was a bit miffed but then realized it was another training opportunity. Change in attitude I guess.

I've been intruded upon lots of times. A couple times I was the culprit. Don't you train for the unexpected?
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Your argument reminds me of when auto seatbelt laws were just coming about. The main (only?) reason for those laws being adopted was safety because statistics showed that in an overwhelmingly high percentage of fatalities, a seatbelt would have made a difference. There were people against seatbelt laws that claimed they could also make things less safe, because in a single digit percentage of cases a seatbelt had made it take longer to receive assistance. If that's how you like to stack your odds, I'd like to play poker with you bit I'd not like to play chicken with you. (I once had to explain to a co-worker what the game of "chicken" was... she said "chicken? it should be called 'stupid'").
 
I think you missed the point of my argument. I'll state my point by continuing with your seat belt analogy. A seat belt should not justify careless driving habits.

Like a seat belt improperly used, a comm radio improperly used does not yield the desired effect. How often is a seat belt modified from it's original design yet comms can be 'modified' by use of non-standard phraseology, whiney voices, rambling dialog, incoherent utterances, inaccurate position reports, inability to convey intentions, or misuse through squelch and/or volume controls, or dialing in an incorrect freq. Too great a reliance on either the seat belt or the comm radio is tantamount to carelessness. That is my point.
 
BTW: my favorite aunt was severely injured precisely because she was wearing a seat belt. Struck from behind at a red light, her vehicle was pushed into a busy intersection. The seat belt inertial reel retracted the belt and jammed. The belt had to be cut away but not before her vehicle was T boned on driver side.

Strike one for thread drift.
 
bartmc said:
My closest calls have been enroute. Closest one was a C172 with a transponder off doing a little extracurricular IFR dropping down through a cloud deck. ATC couldn't see him. I could tell he was wearing glasses and read his N-Number. Close enough to recognize the plane as the local FBOs rental and called them and asked them to relay a message to him about my feelings for his piloting technique.
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Um, I didn't know the topic was transponders? I never, ever turn that off. Well, except going into OSH, at ATC's request.

I don't think a radio would have helped, or hurt, in the situation you described.
 
bartmc said:
I'm with eman. Handhelds are 200 bucks. Cheap safety insurance.
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. . .And condoms are a quarter. Cheap insurance. Does that mean you should wear one for every sexual encounter you have? Nope.

. . .Model T cars don't have power brakes, power steering, airbags, or even seat belts in their stock configurations. Does that mean they shouldn't be driven? Nope. There are thousands of them out there, still driving.

. . .And so on, and so on. . .

Ya'll be safe out there. Look out the window and don't hit nuthin.' ;)
 
Richard said:
I think you missed the point of my argument. I'll state my point by continuing with your seat belt analogy. A seat belt should not justify careless driving habits.

Like a seat belt improperly used, a comm radio improperly used does not yield the desired effect. How often is a seat belt modified from it's original design yet comms can be 'modified' by use of non-standard phraseology, whiney voices, rambling dialog, incoherent utterances, inaccurate position reports, inability to convey intentions, or misuse through squelch and/or volume controls, or dialing in an incorrect freq. Too great a reliance on either the seat belt or the comm radio is tantamount to carelessness. That is my point.
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One other thing with respect to the point I wished to make. That guy in the other plane has now concentrated your focus on that supposed point in space and time. By narrowing your field of vision and your spatial awareness you risk losing sight of the big picture.

Example; a pilot who repeatedly flubs his calls makes all other pilots wary. Countless times I've literally seen other aircraft depart the area until that guy is on the ground. They have developed the perception that that pilot cannot be trusted and they react to that. In this case it may be much better if he simply stays off the radio to fly the plane.

In this thread I think we are all correct. My caveat is to guard against too much reliance on the comm radio which can breed complacency.
 
Surprised there's been no comments about Deaf pilots in the thread: http://www.deafpilots.com

I call every tree and bush so long as I seem to be the only one around and keep my eyes peeled for any other pilots that may not have, not be able to use, or not want to use the radio.

Does anyone have a statistical analysis that definitively shows that radio use improves safety in uncontrolled airports?
 
Jay Honeck said:
Um, I didn't know the topic was transponders? I never, ever turn that off. Well, except going into OSH, at ATC's request.

I don't think a radio would have helped, or hurt, in the situation you described.
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Those electrical system missing planes don't have transponders either. The point was, the guy wasn't on the CTAF nor talking to ATC.
 
joycem137 said:
Does anyone have a statistical analysis that definitively shows that radio use improves safety in uncontrolled airports?
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Actually, the thing that's scarier to me is the number of collisions that occur at towered airports, where pilots not only ALL have radios but have a controller to help them coordinate their use. I believe the figure is somewhere around 20% of the mid-airs that occur near airports occur at towered fields. Even though that clearly shows that the vast majority occur at non-towered fields, you need to factor in that non-towered fields make up the majority of airport use in the U.S., and that there is no organized "supervision" at those fields, and pilots by and large can do what they want to do. So radios or no radios, you still have to expect a certain degree of chaos will always be present at non-towered fields.

I don't have a problem with using radios whenever it's practical to do so, including when you have one in the plane. My problem is with people who believe so strongly that their mandatory use will reduce accidents that they are willing to insist that everyone be forced to use them. After that will be transponders, then TCAS, then IFR flight plans . . .

I'd rather see airports that really need them to go ahead and become towered fields, at taxpayer expense, and user expense only for those that need to fly there and aren't already radio equipped. But even that measure won't eliminate mid-airs in the airport environment.



-
 
dbahn said:
Actually, the thing that's scarier to me is the number of collisions that occur at towered airports, where pilots not only ALL have radios but have a controller to help them coordinate their use. I believe the figure is somewhere around 20% of the mid-airs that occur near airports occur at towered fields.
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Class D, non-radar airports used to be terrifying because you would have some guy with binoculars who THOUGHT he knew where you were, trying to direct swarms of aircraft who THOUGHT they knew where they were.

It was a recipe for trouble that often resulted in conflicts and go-rounds. We always preferred busy uncontrolled fields over these "Class Duh!" fields, because at least there you knew everyone would be on the look-out for you.

Nowadays, most of these towers have at least some rudimentary radar service, and traffic counts are down to the point where this seems to no longer be a factor.

Anyone in Wisconsin flown into Janesville (JVL) on a Saturday morning recently? 20 years ago, that place was a melee on nice Saturday mornings, thanks to the on-field restaurant.
 
Jay Honeck said:
Anyone in Wisconsin flown into Janesville (JVL) on a Saturday morning recently? 20 years ago, that place was a melee on nice Saturday mornings, thanks to the on-field restaurant.
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That place is deader than dead.

I want to fly in there some weekend and do touch and goes just to give the poor guy in the tower something to do.
 
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