First plane

[John Morgan Wight]

Hello!

I’m looking to get my pilots certificate and would like to buy an airplane now so I have no limitation on scheduling and have a plane to fly around in when I get it. What would make a better first airplane purchase.

The two planes I’ve narrowed it down to are a Piper Cherokee 140/160, or maybe a 180 and a Piper Comanche 250/260.

The Cherokee is inexpensive, at least decently fast (better than like a super slow Cessna 150), easy to maintain, great parts availability, I would imagine easy to insure, and easy to find an instructor to teach in it as several flight schools have pa28 variants in their fleet at my local airport (KASH).

My dream plane however has always been a turbonormalized Piper Twin Comanche. I figured with the difficulty of getting insurance, all the extra training and the difficulties of flying a twin to buy one of these later down the road. But if I bought a single Comanche like a 250/260 it would make it an easier transition to the twin Comanche and not to mention the Comanche is way way faster than a Cherokee, longer range, better looking for not a lot more money or much more in maintenance cost. Would it be a bad idea to buy a Comanche early on? I don’t know if insurance companies would be willing to insure it. Is it as easy to find someone who can work on them? Would a flight school even be open to training someone in a Comanche as they likely have no experience in it themselves?

What do you guys think?

Thanks, John

 

[asicer]

What do you guys think?

Learn to land first. During that phase of learning, beat up on someone else's plane built for that. Plus, you get a chance to learn what you like/dislike.

 

[texasclouds]

The Cherokee will be a safer aircraft to learn in due mostly to the wing. The Comanche wing is laminar flow which is a smoother faster design but has a nastier stall with less warning signs. The Cherokee is going to buffet and give you more time to realize what’s going on and lower the AOA.

That said, you shouldn’t be accidentally stalling your aircraft, but if you do as a greenhorn then the Cherokee if your friend.

I like the 180, it has Cessna 172 like performance.

The 140 is known to be a dog. Field elevation, density altitude, fuel load, your weight, and passenger weight may leave you wanting more than a 140.

Honestly, I’d suggest renting a Cherokee for your private training, then look at purchasing a plane. Maybe double dip instrument training with Comanche training. With an instructor that knows the Comanche.

 

[Rushie]

This website thinks the 140/160/180 is a phone number. Weird. Also, Cherokee, Cherokee?

I wouldn’t train in a “way way faster” airplane as a beginning student.

 

[Rich Holt]

Honestly, I’d suggest renting a Cherokee for your private training, then look at purchasing a plane.

I can't agree more. Beat up someone else's plane while you learn. Trying to get insurance for a HP/Complex as a student pilot will probably be a no-go. So before you make any big descisions I would check out the logistics involved. Things like insurance and medicals are not a given.

 

[Oldmanb777]

You don't know, what you don't know! Learn first, then be a more educated buyer.

 

[texasclouds]

Whatever you do, buy a nice airframe with an instrument panel the way you want it. Those are expensive things to upgrade/ refurb. Take your time and don’t get in a hurry to buy. I looked for about a year before my C170 fell in my lap.

 

[John Morgan Wight]

This is great feedback. I have never been in either and heck I’ve never even seen a Comanche in person before and have only seen Cherokees from a distance. Just pure online research. I flew a 172 for an introductory flight and chartered a 182 once too. I’m close to getting my medical so I figured might as well see what I should buy. Like everyone said maybe rent stuff for a while first to get a bit of practice until I get landing down and beat up someone else’s airplane. That’s a good idea!

Maybe buying a Cherokee first and building some time would be better then get a complex and high performance rating and buy the Comanche then and get my instrument rating in that. Or try a couple other aircraft out too like a Cessna or a Grumman. Also didn’t consider that it might take a while to find a really good example and all the costs involved with relaying out the panel. Insane how expensive instrumentation is.

Side note you think a Cherokee 180 really makes that big a difference compared to say a 160? There is like a $20k+ price premium for the 180. Can an extra 20 horsepower and a separate baggage door really be worth that? That lifts you firmly into Comanche 250 price territory. Just seems like bad value for money but maybe it’s just the crazy market we are in.

Thanks a lot for all the input everyone I really appreciate it!

 

[Daleandee]

The Cherokee will be a safer aircraft to learn in due mostly to the wing. The Comanche wing is laminar flow which is a smoother faster design but has a nastier stall with less warning signs. The Cherokee is going to buffet and give you more time to realize what’s going on and lower the AOA.

Never flown a Comanche but a friend had a Cherokee and they are pretty benign as far as I could tell. I read an article years ago that said some instructors didn't care for training in Cherokees because they were too easy to fly. I don't know that I agree with that but thought it was funny when I read it.

Piper also builds the Cub and it is said to be the safest plane ever built in that it can just barely kill you.

 

[Mxfarm]

I wouldn’t purchase a aircraft based on how it stalls, but if a stall sneaks up on you in a Comanche, no other aircraft will help. It is a non-event.

For me, if my speed over the threshold isn’t right for the aircraft weight, she’ll let you know - fast or slow.

 

[Rcmutz]

Purchasing a Comanche as a student pilot will be an expensive proposition. Insurance and maintenance coast, not to mention high performance, and complex will add to training costs. Before you buy a Comanche, while low in acquisition costs, you best research the entire cost enchilada. Maybe something simpler to own and maintain to learn the ropes on like the Cherokee or a Grumman cheetah/Tiger.

 

[Gary Ward]

Hello!

I’m looking to get my pilots certificate and would like to buy an airplane now so I have no limitation on scheduling and have a plane to fly around in when I get it. What would make a better first airplane purchase.

The two planes I’ve narrowed it down to are a Piper Cherokee 140/160, or maybe a 180 and a Piper Comanche 250/260.

The Cherokee is inexpensive, at least decently fast (better than like a super slow Cessna 150), easy to maintain, great parts availability, I would imagine easy to insure, and easy to find an instructor to teach in it as several flight schools have pa28 variants in their fleet at my local airport (KASH).

My dream plane however has always been a turbonormalized Piper Twin Comanche. I figured with the difficulty of getting insurance, all the extra training and the difficulties of flying a twin to buy one of these later down the road. But if I bought a single Comanche like a 250/260 it would make it an easier transition to the twin Comanche and not to mention the Comanche is way way faster than a Cherokee, longer range, better looking for not a lot more money or much more in maintenance cost. Would it be a bad idea to buy a Comanche early on? I don’t know if insurance companies would be willing to insure it. Is it as easy to find someone who can work on them? Would a flight school even be open to training someone in a Comanche as they likely have no experience in it themselves?

What do you guys think?

Thanks, John

First earn your certificate in flight school planes, fly as many different planes as they will let you. (172/cherokee) Then get checked out in some local rental planes and fly them.
Then think about which plane will be best for you.

 

[mondtster]

For many, the cost of insurance will be the deciding factor on what to buy. Have you checked to see if it is affordable or available for either type if cost and availability is a concern?

I also would suggest learning in a rental aircraft, but for a different reason. Aircraft ownership has its ups and downs, and maintenance issues can be a big distraction that can make the learning process take longer. Oftentimes it is much more convenient to be able to toss the keys of a broken airplane back on the desk and let the school deal with the problem while you're off continuing to learn in a different aircraft.

 

[Bill]

Learn to land first. During that phase of learning, beat up on someone else's plane built for that. Plus, you get a chance to learn what you like/dislike.

This is great advice, I'd rent at least until you're endorsed for your solo. THEN if you wish transition to your own aircraft.

 

[John Morgan Wight]

I think you guys are right. Do some flight training in a bunch of planes to try stuff out and learn to fly first on someone else’s plane. There are a ton of planes in the rental fleet at my local airport. And like it’s been said finding a good example takes time even when you find the plane you want. I think I’ll rent for a while and for fun call a few insurance companies and see what their parameters are and requirements. Thanks a lot everyone super great advice! Don’t have many pilot friends so this is awesome!

 

[drummer4468]

Never flown a Comanche but a friend had a Cherokee and they are pretty benign as far as I could tell. I read an article years ago that said some instructors didn't care for training in Cherokees because they were too easy to fly. I don't know that I agree with that but thought it was funny when I read it.

Piper also builds the Cub and it is said to be the safest plane ever built in that it can just barely kill you.

Having flown 172s, 152s, and Beech Sundowners for the vast majority of my hours, I was astounded when I took the checkout flight for my club's Cherokee 140. Hulking the stick all the way back, airspeed nonexistent, the thing just did NOT want to stall. And when i finally did get it to "break"(using that term loosely), it was the most benign, cushy little mush-down of the nose I ever felt. Downright adorable. I had to ask the club instructor to make sure i wasn't brainfarting and doing it wrong.

Piper marketed the cherokee as the plane that anyone could fly easily. And they were right. You'd have to hold a gun to its head and beg for it to try and kill you, and even then it won't want to.

 

[Daleandee]

I was astounded when I took the checkout flight for my club's Cherokee 140. Hulking the stick all the way back, airspeed nonexistent, the thing just did NOT want to stall.

Yep ... the yoke was all the way back and I was waiting for the break and mentioned to my friend that it didn't want to stall. He said, "it's descending at 500' FPM, that is the stall."

 

[SixPapaCharlie]

You're not going to get an insurance company to cover you in a Comanche (single or twin) as a PPL student.

I just bought a Comanche 250 as a 900 hour, Instrument rated pilot with almost no retract time and 3 companies denied coverage and the one that covered me bent me over.

 

[texasclouds]

You're not going to get an insurance company to cover you in a Comanche (single or twin) as a PPL student.

I just bought a Comanche 250 as a 900 hour, Instrument rated pilot with almost no retract time and 3 companies denied coverage and the one that covered me bent me over.

Hopefully year two will be better for you. Were they gentle?

 

[Hang 4]

I got to solo in the school's 172's, then I bought an Archer (Cherokee 180 with extended cabin). I think I lost about 10 hours getting ready to solo in the Cherokee. I still own the plane and love it. Like someone said earlier, get one with all the avionics you think you might want, way cheaper. I have no regrets doing it that way.
https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/com...-new-plane-for-private-pilot-training.108807/

 

[John Morgan Wight]

The avionics were something I really haven’t thought much about. The price difference between basic airplanes and ones speced out with good IFR equipment is big. I looked up the costs for say a Garmin 430W and wow those are expensive and you still have to install it. So cheaping out would cost way more money. Something I didn’t think about. Very close to getting my medical. I’m going to do an introductory flight at a flight school with a Cherokee 140 and go from there. Already flown a 172 before so know what those fly like. Thanks a lot!

I like the idea of a simple to fly airplane that is easy to get insured and build some hours in and then upgrade to a complex high performance when I get an ifr and some hours in retractable first too.

 

[Rcmutz]

You're not going to get an insurance company to cover you in a Comanche (single or twin) as a PPL student.

I just bought a Comanche 250 as a 900 hour, Instrument rated pilot with almost no retract time and 3 companies denied coverage and the one that covered me bent me over.

Yah... I have 1200 hrs, IFR, 16 hrs of retract, and for a $60K Comanche 250, $2600 for insurance. I think I’ll stay with my 79 Tiger.

 

[Rgbeard]

Not to mention, you still have a lot to learn about Avionics. The 430 that you were mentioning, is older than many of the pilots out flying today. It’s simply one announcement letter from Garmin away from being a brick.

 

[N1120A]

A Cherokee 180 is basically a perfect first plane if you are training on it. Forgiving, fast enough, great climb, easy stall, stable. Rent the the retract for 10-25 hours on your way to an instrument

 

[John Morgan Wight]

I agree from what I’ve read and watched the Cherokee is super easy to fly and still decently fast. Seems like a great starting point for at least a few years.

I requested a quote from an insurance company (BWI) on a random Cherokee 180 for sale and got to talk to someone on the phone. Insurance is super cheap for a student pilot! Only $1,600 for the year and I only have one logged hour. That covers me and the instructor, will cover me soloing and that’s $80k hull coverage, and $1million liability total and $1million liability per person. Really reasonable. Also talked to her about insuring a Comanche as a student pilot in terms of rough cost and requirement. She said ideally they would like to see at least 100 hours total time, an instrument rating, 20-25 hours of dual time in a complex aircraft and some time in type (like 50+ hours). She said you can get insurance with less but the rate would be super high and more difficult to get coverage. Also she said the first year of insurance for a high performance/complex will be high as others have stated but will drop significantly after the first year. So that was great info.

I like the idea of getting some time logged in a decent aircraft like a Cherokee and upgrading later to complex/hp down the road and rent a retractable gear aircraft to get a little time before buying.

Also amazed how old the Garmin 430 is. 1998?! I really thought it was newer than that. I have a lot to learn yet about avionics.

$2,600 per year doesn’t seem too bad for first year on the Comanche but does seem high considering instrument and 1200 hours.

I will try out a cherokee 140 during an introductory flight this Friday and can see if I like it. Also I’m thinking if I buy something get it IFR certified instead of retrofitting it like has been said too.

 

[NealRomeoGolf]

My first plane was an Archer. It was good for me to learn how to be an owner without having some of the more complex systems that can get expensive. I then stepped up to something bigger and twice as expensive with more knowledge about how to handle the maintenance on an airplane and knowing what kind of budget I would need from both an operating perspective and a maintenance one. I recommend the 180 first.